Jealousy?

[2o6]

I'm sorry, but how could you NOT get invoice on a Camry Wagon?



There could not have been enough interest in this... thing... to keep prices up.

What's wrong with it? It was a reliable Japanese wagon with 3rd row.

[Eye of the Tiger]

So a hot cheerleader in high school was your crush. You absolutely wanted to go to prom with her, but she had the personally of a salt shaker, and she only hanged out with the cool kids. Still, you envied her date because you wanted to be that guy.

Twenty years later, you see her at your class reunion. She's put on about 100 pounds, looks like shit, and she's still has the same obnoxious personality -- only it's not really considered "cool" anymore.

This article is recommending you still ask her to slow dance with you. Her name is Toyota.

I never liked stupid cheerleaders. Most of them were damn ugly without makeup, especially the guys.

[565]

What's a Toyota without quality? ...

A Dodge.

[CALL_911]

So a hot cheerleader in high school was your crush. You absolutely wanted to go to prom with her, but she had the personally of a salt shaker, and she only hanged out with the cool kids. Still, you envied her date because you wanted to be that guy.

Twenty years later, you see her at your class reunion. She's put on about 100 pounds, looks like shit, and she's still has the same obnoxious personality -- only it's not really considered "cool" anymore.

This article is recommending you still ask her to slow dance with you. Her name is Toyota.

[the Teuton]

I'm sorry, but how could you NOT get invoice on a Camry Wagon?



There could not have been enough interest in this... thing... to keep prices up.

The power of the interwebs didn't allow you to research, cross-shop, or do any of that cool stuff back then. Edmunds wasn't even founded until 1995, and I bet it wasn't quite as sophisticated as it is today. People couldn't search dealers in a 100-mile radius. It just didn't happen.

[cawimmer430]

From a styling point of view that Camry was actually ok. But the rear of that wagon with those two wipers still sends shivers down my spine.

[SVT666]

The first Ford I can remember wanting to buy was the Focus, but that was after watching it in the WRC.  We never got anything that cool over here. 

I assure you the SVT is quite cool.

[Jon?]

So a hot cheerleader in high school was your crush. You absolutely wanted to go to prom with her, but she had the personally of a salt shaker, and she only hanged out with the cool kids. Still, you envied her date because you wanted to be that guy.

Twenty years later, you see her at your class reunion. She's put on about 100 pounds, looks like shit, and she's still has the same obnoxious personality -- only it's not really considered "cool" anymore.

This article is recommending you still ask her to slow dance with you. Her name is Toyota.

Wait, does she have big boobs?

[SVT666]

Wait, does she have big boobs?

Yes.  Oh wait, it's supposed to be Toyota...so no.  No big boobs.

[the Teuton]

Yes.  Oh wait, it's supposed to be Toyota...so no.  No big boobs.

I said she was hot, but since she's Toyota -- let's say they might not be the biggest, but they certainly were perky in the Mk IV Supra heyday.

[Tave]

It's not a coincidence that Toyota quality has taken a bit of a hit during their rapid expansion over the last 2 decades. It would've happened to anyone.

[AutobahnSHO]

I'm sorry, but how could you NOT get invoice on a Camry Wagon?



There could not have been enough interest in this... thing... to keep prices up.

Wagon buyers are rare anyway (thank Clark W. Griswold for that? ) but as one, I never liked the looks of that thing. Especially when you had better lookers out there:

[sportyaccordy]

Toyota would have seemed invincible if it made only stolid and reliable cars, but it has also routinely one-upped competitors with razzle-dazzle features and new product unveilings. If Apple has a counterpart in the auto realm, it?s Toyota, which regularly introduces concept cars that elicit covetous gasps from auto show regulars. In 2005, it was the Lexus LFA, a 10-cylinder, 552-horsepower ?two-seat supercar? that can go zero to 60 in under four seconds.

EPIC FUCKING LOLSS!!!!!!!!!!!!

What's a Mercedes without quality? Prestige, speed, sophistication, style...
What's a Toyota without quality? ...

Toyotas have sucked for a long, long time, and with the competition having blown past them in various specializations I am hoping this will be the wake up call they need to become competitive again.

The article is pretty silly, but you have to remember who is writing it. Seriously, I've come to expect more objective journalism from the New York Post. The author is probably one of those frail vegetarian Apple computer using Park Slope Prius pushing parents... yeecchh I hate this paper

[2o6]

EPIC FUCKING LOLSS!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol:

Toyota has quite a few accomplishments and technological strides the other manufacturers don't have.



I don't think they've sucked at all....they did fine for their target audience; Appliances.

[sportyaccordy]

Toyota has quite a few accomplishments and technological strides the other manufacturers don't have.



I don't think they've sucked at all....they did fine for their target audience; Appliances.

The driving force behind those accomplishments was the incredible sums of cash they made completely watering down their cars. Barring the Prius and their trucks(I know nothing about trucks), is there ANYTHING competitive about ANY Toyota/Lexus made after ~98? The only car I can think of is the 98-03 Lexus GS, and that's only because it had a blend of performance and reliability that was unmatched in its category.

Toyota's been totally sitting on its laurels. Like dude said, without reliability Toyota is dead in the water.

[ifcar]

The driving force behind those accomplishments was the incredible sums of cash they made completely watering down their cars. Barring the Prius and their trucks(I know nothing about trucks), is there ANYTHING competitive about ANY Toyota/Lexus made after ~98? The only car I can think of is the 98-03 Lexus GS, and that's only because it had a blend of performance and reliability that was unmatched in its category.

Toyota's been totally sitting on its laurels. Like dude said, without reliability Toyota is dead in the water.

Toyota has continually offered a focus on comfort/quietness over sporty pretensions that more and more automakers have walked away from in recent years. The automotive community never seems to believe it, but many people do actually prefer that.

[Byteme]

The driving force behind those accomplishments was the incredible sums of cash they made completely watering down their cars. Barring the Prius and their trucks(I know nothing about trucks), is there ANYTHING competitive about ANY Toyota/Lexus made after ~98? The only car I can think of is the 98-03 Lexus GS, and that's only because it had a blend of performance and reliability that was unmatched in its category.

Toyota's been totally sitting on its laurels. Like dude said, without reliability Toyota is dead in the water.

Looks like.........., well the below article speaks for itself.


Ford Roars Past Toyota: Poll
By Andrea Tse   02/08/10 - 08:41 AM EST   NEW YORK (TheStreet)

Ford fans -- and that seems to be most of TheStreet readers these days -- are more than 84% certain that Ford has passed Toyota(TM Quote) in regards to trustworthiness and quality.

That, at least, is according to a weeklong poll conducted this past by TheStreet. Indeed, as Toyota scrambles to contain all the harm caused by its sudden acceleration troubles -- and subsequent recall -- one reader, commenting on TheStreet, predicts that "Ford will outsell Toyota easily in 2010." Meanwhile, The Wall Street Journal says that Toyota is currently assembling a D.C. crisis team consisting of lobbyists, lawyers and public relations experts to defuse a mounting political and regulatory firestorm.

This crisis team even consists of former Clinton aides (who presumably know a thing or two about attempting to contain a public relations nightmare) and those who helped Tyco International(TYC Quote) cope with its own corporate crisis, according to the paper.

Indeed, the problems for Toyota have been grave enough to lure the company's media-shy president Akio Toyoda into a last-minute press conference Friday. There, Toyoda apologized for the company's massive vehicle recalls, and tried to mollify Toyota customers with assurances of better quality control.

But while Toyota is marshaling its resources into remedying its sudden-acceleration troubles -- and its public image -- only time will tell whether the carmaker will be able to set things right again for its customers. But one thing's for sure: it's a windfall for Toyota's competitors, such as Ford.

[Byteme]

Toyota has continually offered a focus on comfort/quietness over sporty pretensions that more and more automakers have walked away from in recent years. The automotive community never seems to believe it, but many people do actually prefer that.

I think the auto manufacturers understand that quite well, they just don't advertise it.  Every mainstream manufacturer sells one or more lines of vanilla transportation devices and the ones that make the devices that offend the fewest people sell well.  Buyers were't lining up to buy Corollas or Civics or Focus' or Caviliers because they expected a profound driving experience, The vast majority were bought becasue they all rpoveded varying degrees of reasonable transportation for a relatively modest outlay of cash.  Manufacturers. however, understand that those simple virtues don't sell cars. 

Remember in the late 50's ford tried to sell safety. That campaign failed. People may want safety, they may want truck space, they may want economy, but they want an image of sportiness, power, richness, exclusivity, so that's what is advertised. 

When was the last time you saw a car ad that showed some schmuck driving his beige four banger Corolla, with cloth seats and wheel covers or F150 or Dodge Ram to the post office to buy stamps, or the grocery store to buy a loaf of bread, or the cleaners to pick up the dry cleaning on a cloudy-drizzly day?  That's what most people do with their vehicles cars most of the time, but that's not the image people want to project and the advertisers and manufacturers know that.  So instead you see a comemrcial showing someone zipping down a mountain road in their fully optionsed sport model, in perfect weather or a pickup truck sliding sideways in slow motion. 

The auto industry hasn't sold a car in years, they've sold images. Buy an image, get a free car.   

[ifcar]

I think the auto manufacturers understand that quite well, they just don't advertise it.  Every mainstream manufacturer sells one or more lines of vanilla transportation devices and the ones that make the devices that offend the fewest people sell well.  Buyers were't lining up to buy Corollas or Civics or Focus' or Caviliers because they expected a profound driving experience, The vast majority were bought becasue they all rpoveded varying degrees of reasonable transportation for a relatively modest outlay of cash.  Manufacturers. however, understand that those simple virtues don't sell cars. 

Remember in the late 50's ford tried to sell safety. That campaign failed. People may want safety, they may want truck space, they may want economy, but they want an image of sportiness, power, richness, exclusivity, so that's what is advertised. 

When was the last time you saw a car ad that showed some schmuck driving his beige four banger Corolla, with cloth seats and wheel covers or F150 or Dodge Ram to the post office to buy stamps, or the grocery store to buy a loaf of bread, or the cleaners to pick up the dry cleaning on a cloudy-drizzly day?  That's what most people do with their vehicles cars most of the time, but that's not the image people want to project and the advertisers and manufacturers know that.  So instead you see a comemrcial showing someone zipping down a mountain road in their fully optionsed sport model, in perfect weather or a pickup truck sliding sideways in slow motion. 

The auto industry hasn't sold a car in years, they've sold images. Buy an image, get a free car.   

I'm not talking about marketing. I'm talking about driving dynamics. A Honda Accord or Civic -- bland as they are -- is stiff-riding and noisy compared to a Camry or Corolla, and Honda loses sales to Toyota because of it.

[GoCougs]

I'm not talking about marketing. I'm talking about driving dynamics. A Honda Accord or Civic -- bland as they are -- is stiff-riding and noisy compared to a Camry or Corolla, and Honda loses sales to Toyota because of it.

Yup.

[Byteme]

I'm not talking about marketing. I'm talking about driving dynamics. A Honda Accord or Civic -- bland as they are -- is stiff-riding and noisy compared to a Camry or Corolla, and Honda loses sales to Toyota because of it.

You earlier wrote: "Toyota has continually offered a focus on comfort/quietness over sporty pretensions that more and more automakers have walked away from in recent years. The automotive community never seems to believe it, but many people do actually prefer that."

I'm simply pointing out that, with the possible exception of Honda, manufacturers other than toyota do realize that and make cars that aare equally quiet and comfortable. it only seems that they walked away from that because they don't particularly advertise comfortable and quiet.

[ifcar]

You earlier wrote: "Toyota has continually offered a focus on comfort/quietness over sporty pretensions that more and more automakers have walked away from in recent years. The automotive community never seems to believe it, but many people do actually prefer that."

I'm simply pointing out that, with the possible exception of Honda, manufacturers other than toyota do realize that and make cars that aare equally quiet and comfortable. it only seems that they walked away from that because they don't particularly advertise comfortable and quiet.

Nissan overtly aims at sporty. Mazda overtly aims at sporty. Honda and VW have firm rides. GM gives up practicality for style in its midsize cars. Hyundai and Kia are walking away from Toyota-style comfort. Even the Fusion and Focus have firmer rides than the Camry and Corolla.  Chrysler isn't really doing anything...

Who does that leave doing what Toyota does? The closest surviving car to the Camry, IMO, is the Chevy Impala -- a dinosaur that still sells at impressive volume for offering a smooth, quiet ride and clean, anonymous looks. (The Sonata would have been the closest, but the redesign went off in another direction.)

[Jon?]

...Who does that leave doing what Toyota does? The closest surviving car to the Camry, IMO, is the Chevy Impala -- a dinosaur that still sells at impressive volume for offering a smooth, quiet ride and clean, anonymous looks. (The Sonata would have been the closest, but the redesign went off in another direction.)

The Impala would sell even better if it had more red circles in CR's charts.

[the Teuton]

The Impala isn't a bad car. I actually like the mouse fur seats. That said, the Malibu is a much better package.

If the Malibu had softer foam in its seats (which are taller off the ground than the Impala's) and had mouse fur velour instead of that cheap, stain-prone cloth, I'd be smitten with the Malibu. But that's just me.

[NomisR]

Nissan overtly aims at sporty. Mazda overtly aims at sporty. Honda and VW have firm rides. GM gives up practicality for style in its midsize cars. Hyundai and Kia are walking away from Toyota-style comfort. Even the Fusion and Focus have firmer rides than the Camry and Corolla.  Chrysler isn't really doing anything...

Who does that leave doing what Toyota does? The closest surviving car to the Camry, IMO, is the Chevy Impala -- a dinosaur that still sells at impressive volume for offering a smooth, quiet ride and clean, anonymous looks. (The Sonata would have been the closest, but the redesign went off in another direction.)

Toyota gives people exactly what typical drivers want.  It's not what car magazines want which is why they don't usually get high praises with magazines but people like what they see and drive and that's why they get them. 

I don't really understand people's complaint about Toyota's "random acceleration".  I don't like it in the Toyotas I've driven but I don't think it has anything with sticking accelerators but more of the gearing and the way transmission reacting where the car isn't really engine braking like typical cars would.  But it's not really "accelerating" but more of, not slowing down fast enough.  But if you're dumb enough to buy a car with that type of crappy driving dynamic, it's your own fault, not Toyotas.  It's what people want. 

And the fact that people are panicking for the whole thing is retarded too, they've been driving the car that does that for years, if they didn't notice when they test drove their cars, they would've never noticed.

[FoMoJo]

Toyota gives people exactly what typical drivers want.  It's not what car magazines want which is why they don't usually get high praises with magazines but people like what they see and drive and that's why they get them. 

I don't really understand people's complaint about Toyota's "random acceleration".  I don't like it in the Toyotas I've driven but I don't think it has anything with sticking accelerators but more of the gearing and the way transmission reacting where the car isn't really engine braking like typical cars would.  But it's not really "accelerating" but more of, not slowing down fast enough.  But if you're dumb enough to buy a car with that type of crappy driving dynamic, it's your own fault, not Toyotas.  It's what people want. 

And the fact that people are panicking for the whole thing is retarded too, they've been driving the car that does that for years, if they didn't notice when they test drove their cars, they would've never noticed.

I think it's more the 'being stuck at WOT with the brakes burnt out' that people don't like.  The lack of engine braking is quite common in most vehicles now.

[93JC]

My car engine brakes like an SOB.  I can't coast at all.

[NomisR]

I think it's more the 'being stuck at WOT with the brakes burnt out' that people don't like.  The lack of engine braking is quite common in most vehicles now.

How many vehicles has that realistically happened to though.  Less than 0.1% of all Toyotas made?  Most of the complains are most likely not that and a even bigger majority are probably user error.  The only reason that Toyotas has more complaints is because they sell more cars.  That's it.  This is more a media induced panic than a real thing.  Just like H1N1, whatever panic that they'll create tomorrow.

[Jon?]

The Impala isn't a bad car. I actually like the mouse fur seats. That said, the Malibu is a much better package.

If the Malibu had softer foam in its seats (which are taller off the ground than the Impala's) and had mouse fur velour instead of that cheap, stain-prone cloth, I'd be smitten with the Malibu. But that's just me.

Sat in both at the local car show a few weeks back.  Liked the Impala's size and huge trunk (easy to get golf clubs into) but the interior is simply dated.  The Malibu is nicer all the way around.  Again, hopefully knee-jerk Cam/'cord purchasers will give it and the Fusion a fair shake before making a decision.  The 300 is nice too although getting a little long in the tooth now.

[FoMoJo]

Toyotas have sucked for a long, long time, and with the competition having blown past them in various specializations I am hoping this will be the wake up call they need to become competitive again.

The article is pretty silly, but you have to remember who is writing it. Seriously, I've come to expect more objective journalism from the New York Post. The author is probably one of those frail vegetarian Apple computer using Park Slope Prius pushing parents... yeecchh I hate this paper.

Perception is a tough thing to break; sorta' like brainwashing.  Toyota have built up the perception of reliability, not so much in that they are overly reliable, but others were not; or were seen as not.  Toyotas have had their problems over the years but came away unscathed in the eyes of much of the public.  The image is starting to fracture and all the PR and all the lobbying won't make it better.  They'll just have to resort to doing what the rest of the manufacturers have; build better cars .

I can't help but relate this to their adventures in F1 over the past 8 or so years.  They had, by far, the biggest annual budget, about a half billion $ and even headquartered their team in Germany; one of the major F1 centres.  Still, year after year, they came out with a mediocre product; a pretty decent engine but the car was not competitive.  They even had a couple of excellent drivers who could've really produced in a competitive car.  However, the overall composition of the team was mediocre.  In F1, or any other race, you have to win to be seen as the best.  Even their money could not buy them the perception of a winning team.