Is there a better all around enthusiast's car than the M3?

[sportyaccordy]

The E30 was a bit rough but from the E36 (1995 model) on I can't think of a car within or below its price range that's offered as much of everything. I don't think you can call an M3 slow, sloppy, unpractical or unreliable; but all of its rivals have at least one of those flaws.

What do you think?

[the Teuton]

M3s are cheap on the used market, have a ton of aftermarket support, and BMW encourages owners to use them for their intended purpose.

Miatas come close to the same kind of support. So do WRXs, Jeep Wranglers, and Hummers.

[NomisR]

define all-around..

[Raza]

Yeah, the car the M3 always wanted to be.

The 911.

[cawimmer430]

Honda Civic DX VTEC Type-R Mugen

[sportyaccordy]

Yeah, the car the M3 always wanted to be.

The 911.

911s are nowhere near as practical, and the 996 Carreras have pretty significant engine problems so I wouldn't call them reliable either. Plus they cost about 50-80% more for a same year model on the used market. If BMW wanted to make a 911 rival they would have made a 911 rival.

[The Pirate]

911s are nowhere near as practical, and the 996 Carreras have pretty significant engine problems so I wouldn't call them reliable either. Plus they cost about 50-80% more for a same year model on the used market. If BMW wanted to make a 911 rival they would have made a 911 rival.

Definitely.  I can get a pretty nice '95 or '96 M3 for 9 grand.  If I don't mind doing some minor work, I can get one for $6 to $7K.

Like you said, decent trunk size, room for 4, and and one of the best driving cars that ever came out.  I will own one.

[SVT_Power]

New or used? If new, the CTS-V might be better

[ChrisV]

New or used? If new, the CTS-V might be better

He did mention all the way back to the E30, but primarily the E36, so used.

And I'm inclined to agree, as it really hits the sweet spot of ability, practicality, features, style and price.

[sportyaccordy]

New or used? If new, the CTS-V might be better

I'm on the fence about the new M3 so you might be right about that. Still, the CTS-V is not much bigger inside (5 more cubic ft) and is about 550# heavier. It's a much bigger car outside and I imagine it would feel like it at the helm. If straight line performance/ highway cruising is a priority then the CTS-V is it for sure. But I think the new M3 does everything else with a lot more finesse, which might be important to some people. And that's new. The E46 M3 is a better car than the first gen CTS-V for sure. I think it's even as fast in a straight line. Plus the CTS-V had those rear end problems. I think the M3 wins in both cases.

[Raza]

911s are nowhere near as practical, and the 996 Carreras have pretty significant engine problems so I wouldn't call them reliable either. Plus they cost about 50-80% more for a same year model on the used market. If BMW wanted to make a 911 rival they would have made a 911 rival.

Cite your sources on the significant engine problems, please.  I've never heard anything, and I've done my research. 

They're pretty much just as practical.  The back seat has less space, but the boots are about the same, I bet.  And no one is jumping into the back of an E46 M3 with a smile on his face anyway.

BMW did build a 911 competitor, which failed miserably at being a 911 competitor.  I never said the M3 was a 911 competitor.  It's BMW's junior 911. 

[Raza]

Definitely.  I can get a pretty nice '95 or '96 M3 for 9 grand.  If I don't mind doing some minor work, I can get one for $6 to $7K.

Like you said, decent trunk size, room for 4, and and one of the best driving cars that ever came out.  I will own one.

How does being cheaper make it a better all around enthusiasts' car? 

[2o6]

I think the STI and EVO come pretty close as strong contenders. Some of the FWD hot hatches are good, although they are more on the practical side of things.

[sportyaccordy]

Cite your sources on the significant engine problems, please.  I've never heard anything, and I've done my research. 

They're pretty much just as practical.  The back seat has less space, but the boots are about the same, I bet.  And no one is jumping into the back of an E46 M3 with a smile on his face anyway.

BMW did build a 911 competitor, which failed miserably at being a 911 competitor.  I never said the M3 was a 911 competitor.  It's BMW's junior 911. 

I have the 996 Carrera buyer's guide from 911 & Porsche world here.

Among some of the engine issues:

• Cracks in the engine block
• Failure of intermediate-shaft bearing (can mess up timing & make valves hit pistons)
• Oil leak from rear main seal

They're not super common problems, but outside of a rare issue with an oil pump bolt, and a generally weak (but cheaply fixable) cooling system the BMW's engines are pretty solid.

And yea, the M3s might have tight back seats, but they have a back seat. The 911 has a shelf... they are 2 seaters. Beyond that I don't know anyone who seriously considers the M3 a competitor to the 911. It was created to compete in Group A Touring Car racing (a class the 911 does not compete in). The following generations had special race versions made to compete with 911s on race tracks, but these were super limited versions that didn't really epitomize or define the range (like the E46 GTR V8).

Calling the M3 a "failure" is a pretty lame attempt at hyperbole. Again, it's more practical and reliable than the 911... it might not be the better sports car, but as an all around car it can do more.

[sportyaccordy]

I think the STI and EVO come pretty close as strong contenders. Some of the FWD hot hatches are good, although they are more on the practical side of things.

The STi is pretty good. Mags say it's soft, but only with respect to the EVO. For someone in a snow locked climate I think it's a reliable + cheap alternative to the temperamental S4.

[SVT666]

I agree with the M3.  Even the new one.

[nickdrinkwater]

I'd probably say the Mazda MX-5.  Affordable to the average enthusiast to both buy and maintain, decently reliable, a good handler, easily moddable (so I hear) and a true sports car.

The M3 isn't really a car for enthusiasts any more, it's a car for poseurs.

[dazzleman]

If I were to come into some extra money, I'd be really tempted to get an M3.  I love them.

[sportyaccordy]

I'd probably say the Mazda MX-5.  Affordable to the average enthusiast to both buy and maintain, decently reliable, a good handler, easily moddable (so I hear) and a true sports car.

The M3 isn't really a car for enthusiasts any more, it's a car for poseurs.

By your logic, the Miata is for.......

I agree that the Miata is a good enthusiast car. But it is slow and a little impractical...

If I were to come into some extra money, I'd be really tempted to get an M3.  I love them.

What do u mean "come into some money"... u are knee deep in it.

[NomisR]

Lotus Evora

Quick, great handling, good mileage, reliable, reasonably practical (roughly the same as a M3), and priced roughly the same as a M3.  WINRAR!

[dazzleman]

What do u mean "come into some money"... u are knee deep in it.

And it didn't get that by me wasting money, dude.    I have to be careful.  My investments are performing quite poorly.  I've taken huge losses on them, and my 401-K has sucked wind.  Maybe I could get an older one as a toy after I get my house fully paid off, if my investments get better.

They are a really sweet car, so it's very tempting.

[SVT_Power]

I'm on the fence about the new M3 so you might be right about that. Still, the CTS-V is not much bigger inside (5 more cubic ft) and is about 550# heavier. It's a much bigger car outside and I imagine it would feel like it at the helm. If straight line performance/ highway cruising is a priority then the CTS-V is it for sure. But I think the new M3 does everything else with a lot more finesse, which might be important to some people. And that's new. The E46 M3 is a better car than the first gen CTS-V for sure. I think it's even as fast in a straight line. Plus the CTS-V had those rear end problems. I think the M3 wins in both cases.

The first gen CTS-V and the current gen CTS-V are two completely different monsters though. I know there's more to a car than how fast it is, but the CTS-V did crack the 8 minute mark at the ring.

I think the key to the M3 is the fact that it really isn't bad at anything. I mean it's not the fastest car out there, but it does nothing wrong

[93JC]

They're not super common problems, but outside of a rare issue with an oil pump bolt, and a generally weak (but cheaply fixable) cooling system the BMW's engines are pretty solid.

Uhh...

The S54 is pretty notorious for going KA-POW!!

[r0tor]

B6/7 S4

[sportyaccordy]

Uhh...

The S54 is pretty notorious for going KA-POW!!

BMW had a recall for that. Porsche has yet to answer for its shenanigans. There's a reason beyond purity why the 993s are worth so much. The 996 GT3 & Turbo don't have the oil problems, and basically have the old air cooled blocks...

[BimmerM3]

As far as I'm concerned, the M3 is probably the best choice for an enthusiast's car if you only have one car. It's a capable, albeit a firm, DD and can still perform pretty damn well on the track or in the twisties.

But then again, I'm biased. The E46 M3 is the car that made me really fall in love with cars, I drove one to my senior prom, and that same car will likely be my next car.

[280Z Turbo]

The Miata.

End of thread.

[the Teuton]

As far as I'm concerned, the M3 is probably the best choice for an enthusiast's car if you only have one car. It's a capable, albeit a firm, DD and can still perform pretty damn well on the track or in the twisties.

But then again, I'm biased. The E46 M3 is the car that made me really fall in love with cars, I drove one to my senior prom, and that same car will likely be my next car.

The E46 M3 is probably in my top 5 right now for realistic dream cars. It's glorious.

I actually drove one at the dealer that had manual seats. I'd never seen that in a $50,000 sports car before.

[BimmerM3]

The E46 M3 is probably in my top 5 right now for realistic dream cars. It's glorious.

I actually drove one at the dealer that had manual seats. I'd never seen that in a $50,000 sports car before.

Elise.

The Miata.

End of thread.

It doesn't have the speed or practicality of the M3. However, it does have infinite headroom, which is always nice.

[The Pirate]

Uhh...

The S54 is pretty notorious for going KA-POW!!

It also has some oil consumption issues (some cars more than others).  Though the S52 in the E36 (the particular M car that I chose to emphasize) is pretty damn bulletproof.  Failures do occur, but they can usually be attributed to lack of maintenance.  In addition to normal maintenance, plan on replacing guibos periodically and the cooling system every 60K miles, which can be done by a home mechanic for less than $700.