Is there a better all around enthusiast's car than the M3?

[nickdrinkwater]

Actually it's got that too.  It's also got affordability on it's side as well.  I just didn't nominate it because I didn't want to be seen as a troll like Teuton.

I'm not saying it doesn't handle full stop, but that is its achilles heal.  It doesn't have the poise or balance of other cars, which weakens its case as the ideal enthusiast's car.

[Onslaught]

I really like the M3. If I was well off then it be something I'd look into even more. But as a normal person I'd look at a

WRX STI
RX-8
Mustang GT
Camaro SS

as my "fun car that I could live with as a daily driver too." The M3 is probably the overall better car but I could never spend that much cash on one.
And I'm not sure it's twice as good as these cars.

[sportyaccordy]

As well as my MX-5 nomination, I nominate the Mustang.  Pretty much has it all as far as the criteria we're using is concerned, except for maybe handling balance.

I would love a 99-01 SVT as a second car. It's got everything but the poise. I don't think I could live with that interior for a commuter. Otherwise I agree, the Mustang is a damn good bargain and a pretty good all around enthusiast's car if refinement isn't a big deal to you/

[SVT666]

You missed his point (with which I agree), the Evora has the benefits of many a supercar without the drawbacks.

No I didn't miss it.  He actually called the Evora a supercar.  Go back and read his post again.

[565]

Someone had to do it.

Anyway if I was spending such a sizable chunk of money on a car, I'd want to get something special, with that special badass factor.  The current M3 is just too... conservative... for me.  When I see it driving by, I feel respect that it's an excellent machine, but it doesn't get me all excited as seeing a GT-R roll by, or a Z06, or a Viper, etc.

Plus I feel that the M3 was designed by people being clinicially rational, trying to balance sportiness and luxury.  Cars like the GT-R tried to follow some element of all around ability, but then the designers went crazy OCD on the performance and technology.   It's like they started off designing a 911 competitor and then decided to go after everything else too. That Japanese zaniness just appeals to me.  Just like the American brutishness and gawdiness of cars like the Viper or the Vette appeal to me.  They tried (at least with the Vette) to add refinement and composure, but then slipped up by adding huge chrome wheels, stripes in random places, and amusing and endearing techincal oversights.  All those cars have a sort of out of control, untamed, brutish factor to them.  And they were cars made by the manufacture to be the most ambitious performance machines in their stables, pushing the limit of what their engineers could do (at the time).  There is alot to be said for that.  Even if Dodge doesn't have the pedigree or know how of Ferrari, there is something special about their most daring project.  These cars were the moon shots for their respective automakers, and the essence is evident in the expression of the car. The M3 just doesn't give me that vibe.  It presents itself as more a measured instrument, a trusty steed, meant to slot into a precise slot into a lineup (something I agree with Jeremy Clarkson on).  I can see how that appeals to alot of people, but it just doesn't entice me as much as something a bit more unhinged.

[Raza]

Someone had to do it.

It doesn't even compete.  The best all round enthusiast cars aren't automatic only.  That's why the C63, IS-F, et al, aren't in contention here.

If it came in a 6 speed manual, I'd very much warm to it.  It's still an ugly, jumped 350Z with too many seats, but at least it'd have a leg up on the new Ferrari.

[565]

It doesn't even compete.  The best all round enthusiast cars aren't automatic only.  That's why the C63, IS-F, et al, aren't in contention here.

If it came in a 6 speed manual, I'd very much warm to it.  It's still an ugly, jumped 350Z with too many seats, but at least it'd have a leg up on the new Ferrari.

Manuals are a dying breed, and personally I won't miss them.  Chances are the next M3 won't even have a manual. 

[Raza]

Manuals are a dying breed, and personally I won't miss them.  Chances are the next M3 won't even have a manual. 

Manuals are a dying breed, I agree.  They'll end up only surviving in Porsches and Volkswagens.

Which works fine for me.  Let the poseurs pose.  I'll drive. 

[565]

Manuals are a dying breed, I agree.  They'll end up only surviving in Porsches and Volkswagens.

Which works fine for me.  Let the poseurs pose.  I'll drive. 

Who knows?  The Panamera Turbo already only comes in PDK only.

The newly announced 911 Turbo S, with 530HP now comes in PDK only.

http://www.teamspeed.com/forums/997-996-turbo/36470-official-porsche-911-turbo-s-530-bhp-pdk-only.html

These things tend to trickle down.  People once thought it would be impossible for a Ferrari to come with manumatic only, and now it has happened.  It's all about the sales numbers.  If 90% of the buyers go for the manumatic, then making the manual starts making less and less sense, especially as gearbox control is more and more integrated into the car.

[Raza]

It'll be a sad, sad day if it happens.

For real enthusiasts, anyway. 

[Onslaught]

Manuals are a dying breed, I agree.  They'll end up only surviving in Porsches and Volkswagens.

Which works fine for me.  Let the poseurs pose.  I'll drive. 

I really hope that Mazda will have them stick around too. I'm having a hard time seeing the MX-5 or RX car without one.

[SVT666]

I predict the Mustang will be the last car to get rid of the manual transmission, just like it's the last car in the world to get a 6 speed manual, and it still has a log in the back.  When it's the only car on the market that still has a manual, you guys will be swooning all over it.

[sportyaccordy]

I think manuals have a place in the world.

Generally, I would say slower cars with kind of an older feel benefit greatly from having a manual. Aside from the handling my car would be a complete bore if I couldn't rev match downshift or chirp from 1-2 gears. Something slow like a Miata or RX-8 or a regular Civic or something really needs stickshift to add to the fun factor.

For something with some legitimate oomph I do think automated transmissions are better. It's a little silly to write off people who choose automated manuals on cars like F430s as "poseurs", as if such technologies didn't trickle down from race cars. Plus I'm sure companies like Ferrari and Porsche are close enough with their client bases- the poseurs, the collectors and the racers- to legitimately reflect the demands of enthusiasts.

My only gripe is that these systems are a little more complex than normal gearboxes. But ABS is a little more complex than regular brakes. A multilink suspension is a little more complex than a trailing arm or Macpherson strut. But at the end of the day 90% of the time these more complicated pieces provide some extra value. I think automated manuals in cars like the 458 and GT-R are a good idea.

[SVT666]

I think manuals have a place in the world.

Generally, I would say slower cars with kind of an older feel benefit greatly from having a manual. Aside from the handling my car would be a complete bore if I couldn't rev match downshift or chirp from 1-2 gears. Something slow like a Miata or RX-8 or a regular Civic or something really needs stickshift to add to the fun factor.

For something with some legitimate oomph I do think automated transmissions are better. It's a little silly to write off people who choose automated manuals on cars like F430s as "poseurs", as if such technologies didn't trickle down from race cars. Plus I'm sure companies like Ferrari and Porsche are close enough with their client bases- the poseurs, the collectors and the racers- to legitimately reflect the demands of enthusiasts.

My only gripe is that these systems are a little more complex than normal gearboxes. But ABS is a little more complex than regular brakes. A multilink suspension is a little more complex than a trailing arm or Macpherson strut. But at the end of the day 90% of the time these more complicated pieces provide some extra value. I think automated manuals in cars like the 458 and GT-R are a good idea.

The only car those gearboxes make sense in are race cars.  I think it was C&D or R&T that just did a comparison between paddle shifters and manual boxes on the same cars, and they determined that the paddle shifters definitely provide faster lap times, but the manual boxes provide more entertainment and satisfaction.  I would rather be entertained and satisfied then fast.

[NomisR]

No I didn't miss it.  He actually called the Evora a supercar.  Go back and read his post again.

Yeah, I should've quoted it because that was actually a quote from Jeremy Clarkson. 

[NomisR]

Manuals are a dying breed, I agree.  They'll end up only surviving in Porsches and Volkswagens.

Which works fine for me.  Let the poseurs pose.  I'll drive. 

It's the least likely to survive in Porsches and VWs I must say.  I mean, wasn't Porsche one of the first ones to offer manumatic tranmission? And VW AG to offer the DSG type transmission and are probably doing away with manual in their higher performance vehicles for DSG?  At least we'll still see the likes of a manual tranmission from smaller boutique outfits hopefully..

What I would really want is a performance based CVT transmission, now that would really improve performance.

[ChrisV]

Manuals are a dying breed, I agree.  They'll end up only surviving in Porsches and Volkswagens.

Which works fine for me.  Let the poseurs pose.  I'll drive.  

As I've asked many times before, with all the things you do to control a car from point A to pint B (or from point A to Point A again on a track), is moving your left leg occasionally the only thing that makes you a driver? Choosing apexes, hitting the braking point exactly, coming back to track out, controlling a slight drift at the limits of traction, precisely hitting the throttle and modulating it at the edge of traction as you accellerate out of a corner, etc matters not, and can't be called driving if you don't occasionally ALSO move your left leg?

I prefer a good manual transmission as well. But this idiocy that you aren't a driver and are indeed a poseur UNLESS you are wiggling one lower appendage on a third pedal occasionally is ridiculous and unfounded.

[NomisR]

As I've asked many times before, with all the things you do to control a car from point A to pint B (or from point A to Point A again on a track), is moving your left leg occasionally the only thing that makes you a driver? Choosing apexes, hitting the braking point exactly, coming back to track out, controlling a slight drift at the limits of traction, precisely hitting the throttle and modulating it at the edge of traction as you accellerate out of a corner, etc matters not, and can't be called driving if you don't occasionally ALSO move your left leg?

I prefer a good manual transmission as well. But this idiocy that you aren't a driver and are indeed a poseur UNLESS you are wiggling one lower appendage on a third pedal occasionally is ridiculous and unfounded.

Everyone should handcrank start their car otherwise they're a poseur!

[r0tor]

The only car those gearboxes make sense in are race cars.  I think it was C&D or R&T that just did a comparison between paddle shifters and manual boxes on the same cars, and they determined that the paddle shifters definitely provide faster lap times, but the manual boxes provide more entertainment and satisfaction.  I would rather be entertained and satisfied then fast.

if your left foot is aching for entertainment, you can use left foot braking on a DSG car and really improve your driving

[SVT_Power]

Yeah, I should've quoted it because that was actually a quote from Jeremy Clarkson. 

You want to prove any kind of point by quoting Jeremy Clarkson?   

[NomisR]

You want to prove any kind of point by quoting Jeremy Clarkson?   

Nope, I'm just saying where that "supercar" thing came from.  But regardless, it's still a midengine car that's affordable, comfortable and great handling and quick.  And in a way, it's as fast if not faster than a lot of cars that cost more than it too. 

And what's a "supercar" can be debateable today.

[SVT666]

Nope, I'm just saying where that "supercar" thing came from.  But regardless, it's still a midengine car that's affordable, comfortable and great handling and quick.  And in a way, it's as fast if not faster than a lot of cars that cost more than it too.  

And what's a "supercar" can be debateable today.

0-60 in under 4 seconds with a top speed over 200 mph.  That's a supercar.

[SVT666]

if your left foot is aching for entertainment, you can use left foot braking on a DSG car and really improve your driving

Perfecting shifts, rev matching on downshifts, slamming the shifter through the gears without missing a shift, achieving perfect clutch and throttle synchronization, etc. all while hitting the apex, cornering on the edge of adhesion, etc. is far more satisfying and fun then pulling a paddle.

[NomisR]

Perfecting shifts, rev matching on downshifts, slamming the shifter through the gears without missing a shift, achieving perfect clutch and throttle synchronization, etc. all while hitting the apex, cornering on the edge of adhesion, etc. is far more satisfying and fun then pulling a paddle.

All of that should come automatically after driving a while, all you should be concentrating on is taking the proper lines and hitting the apex.  Everything else should be second nature.

[GoCougs]

Yeah, manuals are a dying breed for a reason, whether in performance/"super" cars or everyday drivers: infinitely faster shifts, 100% perfect rev matching on downshift, or that a 6+sp AT is typically quicker/better MPG than a 6sp M/T, manuals' days are numbered.

As an extreme example, you'll not drive an ultra performance, low inertia, flat crank V8 like this rowing your own and using three pedals.

[NomisR]

0-60 in under 4 seconds with a top speed over 200 mph.  That's a supercar.

Either way, Evora > M3 in terms of new cars for all around enthusiast cars.

[SVT666]

All of that should come automatically after driving a while, all you should be concentrating on is taking the proper lines and hitting the apex.  Everything else should be second nature.

Even the best drivers miss a shift once in a while.  Besides, even though it is second nature, it's still satisfying and fun.

[SVT666]

Either way, Evora > M3 in terms of new cars for all around enthusiast cars.

I disagree. 

[SVT666]

Yeah, manuals are a dying breed for a reason, whether in performance/"super" cars or everyday drivers: infinitely faster shifts, 100% perfect rev matching on downshift, or that a 6+sp AT is typically quicker/better MPG than a 6sp M/T, manuals' days are numbered.

It's because nobody knows how to drive a manual anymore.

[NomisR]

Even the best drivers miss a shift once in a while.  Besides, even though it is second nature, it's still satisfying and fun.

I don't know about fun.. I think it's enough adrenalin rush to go into a turn at 130mph where having a clutch and a shifter won't add much to it anymore