Is there a better all around enthusiast's car than the M3?

[SVT666]

I don't know about fun.. I think it's enough adrenalin rush to go into a turn at 130mph where having a clutch and a shifter won't add much to it anymore

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I've driven automatics and manuals quickly through the same stretch of road, and the manuals are infinitely more fun.

[SVT666]

Paddles in a street car is nothing more then a gimmick so the owners can say, "Look, paddle shifters just like a Formula 1 car".

[NomisR]

Paddles in a street car is nothing more then a gimmick so the owners can say, "Look, paddle shifters just like a Formula 1 car".

This I agree, I'd rather have a plain old automatic than paddles.  Although I have used the paddles on the RDX quite frequently, typically to downshift though.

[GoCougs]

It's because nobody knows how to drive a manual anymore.

Back in the day when most people did drive M/T it wasn't because they wanted to. It was because A/T were not available, terrible with reliability or very expensive. None of this is true today, ergo, "nobody" wants to know how because they don't have to and don't want to.

[ChrisV]

Everyone should handcrank start their car otherwise they're a poseur!

Exactly. And manually adjust spark advance while driving, like on the '28 Dodge I did a restoration on...

[SVT666]

Back in the day when most people did drive M/T it wasn't because they wanted to. It was because A/T were not available, terrible with reliability or very expensive. None of this is true today, ergo, "nobody" wants to know how because they don't have to and don't want to. they're lazy and don't know how to drive anyway.

Fixed.

[SVT666]

Exactly. And manually adjust spark advance while driving, like on the '28 Dodge I did a restoration on...

Your argument is extreme.  You may as well say that we should just take all control away from the driver, including steering, cause you know driver involvement doesn't matter in how fun driving can be. 

The way most performance cars are right now (three pedals and a shifter) is the perfect blend of convenience and interaction.  Taking the shifting away from the driver is removing part of the involvement that makes sporty cars fun.  Paddles do nothing but make your shifting faster which is only useful on a track.

[ChrisV]

I don't know about fun.. I think it's enough adrenalin rush to go into a turn at 130mph where having a clutch and a shifter won't add much to it anymore

Think about indoor karts @45 mph with no shifting. Massive amounts of fun (more even than a sports car on the street) and no shifting or clutch pedal action at all.



Remember, I said I prefer a good manual. But it's not a requirement to either drive a car OR have fun in a car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRSf6D8oRkA

[Onslaught]

I've got nothing against cars like the GT-R and others for not having M/T. Most of these cars are pissing contest from the manufactures to show what they can do anyway.  But for me personally with the kind of poor people sports cars I own it needs one.

[SVT666]

Think about indoor karts @45 mph with no shifting. Massive amounts of fun (more even than a sports car on the street) and no shifting or clutch pedal action at all.

You're comparing apples to oranges.  You can't compare the two.

Remember, I said I prefer a good manual. But it's not a requirement to either drive a car OR have fun in a car.

Nobody is arguing that you can't have fun in an automatic.  As usual you take your arguments to the extreme, which makes you look ridiculous.

[GoCougs]

Fixed.

LOL - context fail.

There is no reason for the average person to (want to) know how to drive a M/T.

[ChrisV]

Your argument is extreme.  You may as well say that we should just take all control away from the driver, including steering, cause you know driver involvement doesn't matter in how fun driving can be. 

My response that you are quoting was a joke to take Nomis's response farther. I'm saying you already chose a point on a sliding scale of what control you have over the mechanicals of a car to focus on the important parts of control, which is directional, stopping, and acceleration.

My issue is that acting like removing only one TINY portion of what you do means you aren't a driver, but just a passenger and a poseur. And that's horseshit, even if you can prove it adds a bit of fun. Again, I prefer a good manual, but I'm not going to make the mistake of thinking a good automatic removes your control or turns you into a passenger simply due to not occasionally flexing a third pedal.

The way most performance cars are right now (three pedals and a shifter) is the perfect blend of convenience and interaction.  Taking the shifting away from the driver is removing part of the involvement that makes sporty cars fun.

Shifters were never added to make a car fun. Manual trans were a necessity for early sports cars because that's all they had, much like drum brakes (which Ferrari resisted for years). People NOW have assumed that "fun" is ONLY tied to that third pedal because old sports cars had them exclusively. But the primary purpose of sports cars was road racing and cornering fast, and that's where they are the most fun. G forces are fun, whether you're in a car, a kart, or a roller coaster.

  Paddles do nothing but make your shifting faster which is only useful on a track.

Most performance mods are really only useful on the track, as you aren't supposed to be using the car at anywhere near it's limits on the street.

[Onslaught]

LOL - context fail.

There is no reason for the average person to (want to) know how to drive a M/T.

The average person isn't buying a sports car.

[2o6]

LOL - context fail.

There is no reason for the average person to (want to) know how to drive a M/T.

Perhaps, unlike yourself, they like driving.

[GoCougs]

Paddles in a street car is nothing more then a gimmick so the owners can say, "Look, paddle shifters just like a Formula 1 car".

Paddles on a conventional torque converter automatic perhaps, but on an automated manual tranny? Nope. They're more than just window dressing; YOU STILL HAVE TO SHIFT. DUH. A ratchet-type shifter down on the floor would be nuisance and not otherwise not necessary. The action of shifting is electronically automated so the "shifter" can be placed anywhere. With a traditional M/T you have to have the shifter on the floor (or on the column way back when) because you are actuating linkage and/or actuating the actual transmission.

[ChrisV]

You're comparing apples to oranges.  You can't compare the two.

Yes, you can. You are steering, braking, accelerating... all the things you can do in a car, on wheels, powered by an engine. You don't want to compare them because it ruins your argument about what's fun in driving. You ARE driving those karts.

Nobody is arguing that you can't have fun in an automatic.  As usual you take your arguments to the extreme, which makes you look ridiculous.

Yes, you were. And you were taking it to extremes, as well: "infinitely" more fun? Really? Measured it? No, you're just taking things to extremes again. And Raza said an automatic is not for driving but for posing. And YOU said someone would drive an automatic only because they are lazy. YOUR blanket statements are making YOU look ridiculous which is why I'm calling you out on it.

Oh, wait, I keep forgetting... YOUR negative opinion and insulting attitude is fine, but me responding in kind is "ridiculous." Only YOU can have negative opinions. 

[GoCougs]

The average person isn't buying a sports car.

SVT666 was referring to everyone ("nobody"), and suffice extremely few people buy sports cars.

[2o6]

Paddles on a conventional torque converter automatic perhaps, but on an automated manual tranny? Nope. They're more than just window dressing; YOU STILL HAVE TO SHIFT. DUH. A ratchet-type shifter down on the floor would be nuisance and not otherwise not necessary. The action of shifting is electronically automated so the "shifter" can be placed anywhere. With a traditional M/T you have to have the shifter on the floor (or on the column way back when) because you are actuating linkage and/or actuating the actual transmission.

I think AMT's on slow cars are totally logical. No power-sucking torque converter, or dumb computer to change gears (if you wish to change them yourself) at the wrong time.

Yes, you were. And you were taking it to extremes, as well: "infinitely" more fun? Really? Measured it? No, you're just taking things to extremes again. And Raza said an automatic is not for driving but for posing. And YOU said someone would drive an automatic only because they are lazy. YOUR blanket statements are making YOU look ridiculous which is why I'm calling you out on it.

Some automatics I don't like because they're too primitive. 3 or 4 speeds, changes gears at the wrong time, ect.

[SVT666]

My response that you are quoting was a joke to take Nomis's response farther. I'm saying you already chose a point on a sliding scale of what control you have over the mechanicals of a car to focus on the important parts of control, which is directional, stopping, and acceleration.

My issue is that acting like removing only one TINY portion of what you do means you aren't a driver, but just a passenger and a poseur. And that's horseshit, even if you can prove it adds a bit of fun. Again, I prefer a good manual, but I'm not going to make the mistake of thinking a good automatic removes your control or turns you into a passenger simply due to not occasionally flexing a third pedal.

You kill me Chris.  Just because something takes half a second to do, doesn't mean you only occasionally do it, or that it's a tiny part of driving.

Shifters were never added to make a car fun. Manual trans were a necessity for early sports cars because that's all they had, much like drum brakes (which Ferrari resisted for years). People NOW have assumed that "fun" is ONLY tied to that third pedal because old sports cars had them exclusively. But the primary purpose of sports cars was road racing and cornering fast, and that's where they are the most fun. G forces are fun, whether you're in a car, a kart, or a roller coaster.

Now you're telling me what's fun?  Shifting is fun, but most importantly, it's satisfying.  

Most performance mods are really only useful on the track, as you aren't supposed to be using the car at anywhere near it's limits on the street.

Sure, but no matter how fast you drive on public roads, paddle shifters are only beneficial on a track.  Other mods can be used on public roads even if you aren't supposed to.  

[ChrisV]

Perhaps, unlike yourself, they like driving.

*I* like driving. I have an automatic BMW. I enjoy it in the twisties. For me, driving is vastly more than occasionally moving a third pedal. In fact, while it is part of driving in a manual transmission car, I don't use shifting yourself as part of the definition of driving at all, as I am driving my BMW, in control of my BMW, and having fun in my BMW. And moving a clutch pedal is not part of the definition.

Now, I'd still like to have a 6 speed manual in the 7 series, but more for the uniqueness of it. Plays no part in defining whether or not I'm driving it. Unless, you, Raza, and Hemi, er, SVT666 can prove I'm not driving it, or that I dislike driving.

[SVT666]

SVT666 was referring to everyone ("nobody"), and suffice extremely few people buy sports cars.

Taking me literally are you?  Okay fine.

[2o6]

*I* like driving. I have an automatic BMW. I enjoy it in the twisties. For me, driving is vastly more than occasionally moving a third pedal. In fact, while it is part of driving in a manual transmission car, I don't use shifting yourself as part of the definition of driving at all, as I am driving my BMW, in control of my BMW, and having fun in my BMW. And moving a clutch pedal is not part of the definition.

Now, I'd still like to have a 6 speed manual in the 7 series, but more for the uniqueness of it. Plays no part in defining whether or not I'm driving it. Unless, you, Raza, and Hemi, er, SVT666 can prove I'm not driving it, or that I dislike driving.

I'm talking about Cougs. He thinks the Accord is the save-all for the automotive world.

[GoCougs]

Taking me literally are you?  Okay fine.

Yes plainly, you weren't referring TO EVER SINGLE PERSON ON THE PLANET but you were indeed referring to MOST people. In today's day MOST people have zero standing in learning to drive a M/T. There are a litany or reasons already given. (NOTE: Any opinion contrary to this is a wrong one, just so you know.)

[GoCougs]

2o6, I know you want to be involved but simply put, this thread is not for you. You haven't the experience, context or knowledge to contribute on this topic, and you've done little more than attack others.

[2o6]

Okay.

[ChrisV]

You kill me Chris.   Just because something takes half a second to do, doesn't mean you only occasionally do it, or that it's a tiny part of driving.

I actually measured it on my commute. Out of 20 minutes, a grand total of 2 minutes was spent in the act of shifting. When I drove my Fiat up to Connecticut, I went over an hour without shifting at all. Even on the track, the act of shifting took up barely any of the time that the car was being driven.

If it can be done away with completely, as in my BMW, and yet I'm still driving, then yes, I'd say it takes up a quantifiably small part of the act of driving. Now, try the same with steering, braking or acceleration. Steering, especially.

Now you're telling me what's fun?   Shifting is fun, but most importantly, it's satisfying.

I'm not telling you what's fun. I'm telling you it's not INFINITELY MORE FUN to shift. You can't even quantify that. A little more fun, maybe, and only then in a good car with a good shifter, yeah. There's NO way you can tell me that a 3 on the tree like in my old Falcon is infinitely more fun than my automatic BMW in the twisties. But by your definition, since it's a manual transmission it will be INFINITELY MORE FUN.

But, if shifting where what's fun in driving, then you could get all the fun out of driving by sitting in a parked Yugo and rowing the gears. If that's not the case, then you have to admit that shifting is NOT the most important component of fun in driving. I have no problem with you saying it CAN be a component of fun. But infinitely more fun, or the only thing that makes driving fun? Nope. Not going to believe that unless you're mentally incompetent. And I don't think you are.

Sure, but no matter how fast you drive on public roads, paddle shifters are only beneficial on a track.  Other mods can be used on public roads even if you aren't supposed to. 

Shifting considerably quicker can be used when it's not supposed to on the street, too. Barking the tires into every gear by slapping the automatic shifter forward at WOT is fun, too, even though you're not "supposed" to do it...

[SVT666]

Yes, you can. You are steering, braking, accelerating... all the things you can do in a car, on wheels, powered by an engine. You don't want to compare them because it ruins your argument about what's fun in driving. You ARE driving those karts.

No, you can't compare the two.  One is on a closed circuit race track and the other is a car with windows, roof, body, and 3000+ lbs on public roads.  That's like comparing a Rally car to a civillian hatchback.  Have you ever driven shifter carts?  They use sequential shifters, but they are more fun and satisfying then a regular cart.

Yes, you were.

I've had plenty of fun behind the wheel of automatic equipped cars, so I would never argue that you can't have fun in one.  Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit is it?

And you were taking it to extremes, as well: "infinitely" more fun? Really? Measured it? No, you're just taking things to extremes again. And Raza said an automatic is not for driving but for posing. And YOU said someone would drive an automatic only because they are lazy. YOUR blanket statements are making YOU look ridiculous which is why I'm calling you out on it.

I meant that someone would only drive an automatic sports car because they're lazy.  Too lazy to learn how to drive a manual.

Oh, wait, I keep forgetting... YOUR negative opinion and insulting attitude is fine, but me responding in kind is "ridiculous." Only YOU can have negative opinions. 

You're right.  Everyone is out to get you Chris.  Your extreme arguments like having to crank start our cars and manually adjust spark is what makes you look ridiculous.  Any time you argue something, you always take it to the extreme to try and make a point.  It just looks desperate.

[2o6]

No, you can't compare the two.  One is on a closed circuit race track and the other is a car with windows, roof, body, and 3000+ lbs on public roads.  That's like comparing a Rally car to a civillian hatchback.  Have you ever driven shifter carts?  They use sequential shifters, but they are more fun and satisfying then a regular cart.

I've had plenty of fun behind the wheel of automatic equipped cars, so I would never argue that you can't have fun in one.  Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit is it?
I meant that someone would only drive an automatic sports car because they're lazy.  Too lazy to learn how to drive a manual.
You're right.  Everyone is out to get you Chris.  Your extreme arguments like having to crank start our cars and manually adjust spark is what makes you look ridiculous.  Any time you argue something, you always take it to the extreme to try and make a point.  It just looks desperate.

I thought Chris was being facetious.

[SVT666]

*I* like driving. I have an automatic BMW. I enjoy it in the twisties. For me, driving is vastly more than occasionally moving a third pedal. In fact, while it is part of driving in a manual transmission car, I don't use shifting yourself as part of the definition of driving at all, as I am driving my BMW, in control of my BMW, and having fun in my BMW. And moving a clutch pedal is not part of the definition.

Now, I'd still like to have a 6 speed manual in the 7 series, but more for the uniqueness of it. Plays no part in defining whether or not I'm driving it. Unless, you, Raza, and Hemi, er, SVT666 can prove I'm not driving it, or that I dislike driving.

You're taking it to extremes again Chris.  I never said you weren't having fun, or didn't like driving, or weren't driving your car.  

[NomisR]

I thought the whole reason that manual transmission even existed originally was so you have additional gears in your car so you can go FASTER.  Isn't that the whole point of motorsport?  Nobody actually though, oh, i'll add this additional motion to my driving because it made my driving more entertaining. 

That's the whole point of having DSG, or any type of paddlematic transmissions, to go faster!  That's why I said, if there's a performance CVT, it would be even better, no shifting and at optimal gear ratios at all time, it's even better than a 18 gear transmission. 

I mean, seriously, if shifting is so fun, why are the newer big rigs coming with auto transmissions?  These people drive for a living, if it's really so much fun, they should choose a 18 gear transmission over an automatic.. but they don't because it's a pain in the ass. 

Plus, when you drive, how much do you really shift?  Even on twisty roads, I'm mostly in 2nd or 3rd.. how much shifting do you really have to do?