More Toyota duplcity, this deserves a topic of it's ownl

[565]

What car company has had such widespread issues happen all at once?  If the Explorer, Focus, F150, Taurus, and Mustang all had line wide recalls within a month, it might have obliterated Ford.

I think it's safe to say that this is a unique situation, and judging it against single model recalls in the past (that didn't result in a stoppage of sale, no less) is nowhere near accurate. 

I guess we'll have to wait and see.  I am confident in Toyota's recovery from this pretty much unscathed.

[GoCougs]

Twenty years ago, well, even as recently as ten years ago, I would have agreed with you.  But not today.  After the Ford Explorer mess, Enron, and many other incidents involving financial houses, most companies are tryuing to play it pretty straightforward and up front.  Media exposure, the internet -where a stray memo get worldwide coverage in hours,  The ability of people to access information that was impossible just a decade ago means the risk of exposure is really too great.

You're right in that the large corporations have large legal staffs, but it's my experience, and I work with our lawyers daily on IP issues, work more to keep the company within legal bounds rather than searching for that elusive gap in the rules. Also most legal departments are more involved in cleaning up the mess left when the commercial side of the house does something they shouldn't have; something that could have been avoided had they first consulted with the legal dept.

Toyota's mistake, IMO, is their arrogance, they seem to think they can get a way with stuff becasue they are Toyota.  They've gne farther with this than most companies would have.  That might have worked ten years ago, but not today.   Couple that with the smell of covering up complaints and this situation is ripe to explode in Toyota's face.

I heard this morning on the news that Gov Rick Perry (Texas) is asking congress to "go easy on Toyota".  Remember Texas gave Toyota a sweetheart deal to locate the Tundra plant in the San Antonio area a few years ago. 

Sorry, I think you're being extremely naive on this. What was alleged, with what I might add no documentation whatsoever other than Toyota employed ex-NHTSA employees, is in effect lobbying. All companies do this; both formally and informally.

I not only work with IP lawyers I know a couple. Know a lot of what they do? Brutally dissect patents such that the companies they work for can find errors or easy outs to be able to copy the IP yet (hopefully) skirt or at least have a good defense in the event of a lawsuit. Underhanded or unseemly? Maybe to the layman, but working the system is just how business works.

This may very well continue to explode in Toyota's face but not because they're weren't doing anything different. In fact, my bet is that Ford and GM are doing FAR more backroom socio-political maneuvering given how dire and precarious their current financial positions are, and given their other complications Toyota doesn't have in the US (UAW, quasi-nationalization, etc.).

[Raza]

I guess we'll have to wait and see.  I am confident in Toyota's recovery from this pretty much unscathed.

If it stops here, I too think Toyota will recover.  Unscathed, however, is where I disagree. 

[GoCougs]

I guess we'll have to wait and see.  I am confident in Toyota's recovery from this pretty much unscathed.

If they play it right they will, and can perhaps even parlay it into even better cache with the car buying public. For example, look at the unprecedented frame replacement/buy-back program on first generation Tacomas. Sucks for the people who had the problem, but after a time many of those people respect what Toyota did. In the (long) end WRT to the Tacoma problem, Toyota comes out a bigger winner than if the supplier hadn't botched the frames in the first place.

[GoCougs]

No Lexuses that compete with MBs have been caught in the melee. They are still better cars.

Yup, say what you will about styling, level of luxury, or whatever, but at the end of the day Lexus builds a higher quality and more reliable product than Mercedes-Benz.

[the Teuton]

There's a girl in one of my classes who is having second thoughts about buying a Yaris soon. I don't think the Yaris has ever been recalled, though.

[Jon?]

If it stops here, I too think Toyota will recover.  Unscathed, however, is where I disagree. 

Some folks who wouldn't dream of looking elsewhere for their vehicles might now be more inclined to do so.  That might be an issue for them, especially if their main drawing point, reliability, is in question.

[CALL_911]

Yup, say what you will about styling, level of luxury, or whatever, but at the end of the day Lexus builds a higher quality and more reliable product than Mercedes-Benz.

Despite the fact that I generally like MBs more than Lexuses (Lexii?), I can't argue with that.

MB went down the tubes and still hasn't quite recovered. They may say the new W212 is "built to a standard, not a price," but I still think it's just okay for the class. Nothing special. It's also butt ugly, but thats another matter altogether.

[SVT666]

There's a girl in one of my classes who is having second thoughts about buying a Yaris soon. I don't think the Yaris has ever been recalled, though.

Tell her there are bigger reasons not to buy a Yaris then a fiery high speed crash.  That's just a minor reason.

[the Teuton]

Tell her there are bigger reasons not to buy a Yaris then a fiery high speed crash.  That's just a minor reason.

I was going to tell her to get a Fiesta instead.

Maybe I'll do that.

[CALL_911]

"ORLY"

[NomisR]

The domestics think this is somehow their golden moment to get ahead.  They are in for a massive disappointment if they think so.  The only way for domestics to fight back is with decades of continued products clearly consistently superior to the competition.  That is the only way.

Exactly.. I mean look at how far Hyundai has come in terms of quality and reputation compared to where they were in the 80s or even early 90s.  Detroit should look to the Koreans as an example on how to rebuild their brand

[ChrisV]

The only way for domestics to fight back is with decades of continued products clearly consistently superior to the competition.  That is the only way.

The problem with this line of thought is simply this: even if the domestics were superior, until something like this came along to shake the confidence of Joe Average in the imports, the domestics wouldn't get people looking at them to START with. It doesn't matter how good your product is, or for how long, if people use old opinion to make decisions instead of learning anything new. And Toyota used that to their advantage, as they didn't actually have to make something better because people that already thought they were better would continue to ignore actual issues and still think they were buying the better product without even considering alternatives.

Hell, even when the domestics DO get people into the showroom to look at a good product, the average person coming in with import bias will find reasons not to like it anyhow. Something like this is a chance for manufacturers to grab people whose fundamental beliefs are shaken and show them that not only are they making great product, but have been for a while.

[ifcar]

Exactly.. I mean look at how far Hyundai has come in terms of quality and reputation compared to where they were in the 80s or even early 90s.  Detroit should look to the Koreans as an example on how to rebuild their brand

One big difference is that Detroit has already burned a large portion of the population. When Hyundais were total garbage, almost no one was buying them to experience them firsthand. But millions and millions of people have had American-made lemons at some point.

[Submariner]

Despite the fact that I generally like MBs more than Lexuses (Lexii?), I can't argue with that.

MB went down the tubes and still hasn't quite recovered. They may say the new W212 is "built to a standard, not a price," but I still think it's just okay for the class. Nothing special. It's also butt ugly, but thats another matter altogether.

Mercedes took a dive from 1998 to 2003, at which point they started their return to pre-98' levels of quality.  This was most notable with the introduction of the current CL and S-class.  Most models are there, though, I'd say I'm not sure the ML is as good as it could be....

Say what you will about the W212's styling, but it's the most solid car in it's class, hands down.

[CALL_911]

I definitely don't agree that its the most solid in its class.

Actually, I think those honors go to Audi.

Yes, I've been in a W212.

[Galaxy]

Say what you will about the W212's styling, but it's the most solid car in it's class, hands down.

In most areas yes, however what is unexceptable is that the I4s are only being offered with the 5 speed autos. Offering 90s technology on such an expensive car is inexcusable.

Also the new I4 diesel has already been recalled do to the injectors failing. Some customers had an injector fail after only a few hundred kms, some already went through two or three injectors. However the problem seems to be solved now.

[GoCougs]

The problem with this line of thought is simply this: even if the domestics were superior, until something like this came along to shake the confidence of Joe Average in the imports, the domestics wouldn't get people looking at them to START with. It doesn't matter how good your product is, or for how long, if people use old opinion to make decisions instead of learning anything new. And Toyota used that to their advantage, as they didn't actually have to make something better because people that already thought they were better would continue to ignore actual issues and still think they were buying the better product without even considering alternatives.

Hell, even when the domestics DO get people into the showroom to look at a good product, the average person coming in with import bias will find reasons not to like it anyhow. Something like this is a chance for manufacturers to grab people whose fundamental beliefs are shaken and show them that not only are they making great product, but have been for a while.

Pawning this as some watershed moment in the import auto market IMO is a major stretch. At the end of the day this is more of a PR disaster than it is a product disaster. Further, it takes more than a few years of good but average product to get your customer base back. The typical Camcord customer has little reason yet to buy a Fusion or Malibu. At best it's almost equivalent product at a very small discount.

The Japanese automakers started with nothing and through decades and decades of product, marketing and otherwise chronic, dutiful effort, where they able to get to where they are today. Now it's Detroit's turn, and it's not going to happen overnight, if ever. Meaning, it's not the market's responsibility to consider alternatives, but the automakers option to try to compel them to do so.

[Jon?]

The problem with this line of thought is simply this: even if the domestics were superior, until something like this came along to shake the confidence of Joe Average in the imports, the domestics wouldn't get people looking at them to START with. It doesn't matter how good your product is, or for how long, if people use old opinion to make decisions instead of learning anything new. And Toyota used that to their advantage, as they didn't actually have to make something better because people that already thought they were better would continue to ignore actual issues and still think they were buying the better product without even considering alternatives.

Hell, even when the domestics DO get people into the showroom to look at a good product, the average person coming in with import bias will find reasons not to like it anyhow. Something like this is a chance for manufacturers to grab people whose fundamental beliefs are shaken and show them that not only are they making great product, but have been for a while.

Truth.

And I'm a perfect example of that.  The first car I'd ever owned was a '73 Chevelle.  After that, through the 80's 90's and 00's I went through 11 imports; Hondas, VWs, Audis and Subarus until last Spring.  When looking for something new/different I read up on what was out there in the late model used car market and began hearing enough good things about post '00 domestics that I gave them a shot.  Mind you, this from someone who for three decades never bothered to sit in an American car when it came time to buy.  I tried out a 300C and Fusion and in the end liked the CTS the best and it's turning into one of my favorite cars.

Pawning this as some watershed moment in the import auto market IMO is a major stretch. At the end of the day this is more of a PR disaster than it is a product disaster. Further, it takes more than a few years of good but average product to get your customer base back. The typical Camcord customer has little reason yet to buy a Fusion or Malibu. At best it's almost equivalent product at a very small discount.

Actually, the Camcord owner never believes he's getting an equivalent product.  He's typically paying a little more to get something he believes may be comparable in features, size and comfort but far superior in quality.  It's why I purchsed imports for years - the red circles in CR's charts.  It's the one trump card that Japanese imports could pull out and beat over the domestics' heads.  This Toyota recall won't mean suddenly everyone will be driving a Fusion, but it could lead to people who'd been burned by domestics before to come back to see what they're making now.

The Japanese automakers started with nothing and through decades and decades of product, marketing and otherwise chronic, dutiful effort, where they able to get to where they are today. Now it's Detroit's turn, and it's not going to happen overnight, if ever. Meaning, it's not the market's responsibility to consider alternatives, but the automakers option to try to compel them to do so.

More truth.

[2o6]

I was going to tell her to get a Fiesta instead.

Maybe I'll do that.

A base Fiesta is 14K. That's a lot of money.

[2o6]

I will say this though, this seems to level the playing field. No longer will Toyota have sales based upon "Because it's a Toyota" but now people will take the time to research and test before buying.

[the Teuton]

A base Fiesta is 14K. That's a lot of money.

And if it's still much like the EDM model I drove, I would recommend it in a heartbeat. I've driven a lot of cars, and I've never been as enamored. It has its flaws, but the car is a very solid product.

[2o6]

And if it's still much like the EDM model I drove, I would recommend it in a heartbeat. I've driven a lot of cars, and I've never been as enamored. It has its flaws, but the car is a very solid product.

It's still expensive.

[FoMoJo]

...and I still think they lie about their gas mileage ; especially the RAV4.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Toyoda gets treated at the inquisition .

[Raza]

Mercedes took a dive from 1998 to 2003, at which point they started their return to pre-98' levels of quality.  This was most notable with the introduction of the current CL and S-class.  Most models are there, though, I'd say I'm not sure the ML is as good as it could be....

Say what you will about the W212's styling, but it's the most solid car in it's class, hands down.

My dad's 1996's catastrophic engine failure at 120K begs to differ.

[the Teuton]

It's still expensive.

So are Accents when you load them with any bit of kit.

I'd like to amend my statement to say "for an economy car." The E39 M5 was still the ultimate for me.

[2o6]

So are Accents when you load them with any bit of kit.

I'd like to amend my statement to say "for an economy car." The E39 M5 was still the ultimate for me.

14K is for a Base Fiesta.


10K is for a Base Versa which is roomier.

[ifcar]

...and I still think they lie about their gas mileage ; especially the RAV4.

Your argument there continues to be ridiculous. What was it again, that two cars with equal displacement and weight should always have the same gas mileage?

[the Teuton]

14K is for a Base Fiesta.


10K is for a Base Versa which is roomier.

$13,320. That's not bad.

...but then it's "as shown" at $20,540 on the site. WTF.

[2o6]

$13,320. That's not bad.

...but then it's "as shown" at $20,540 on the site. WTF.

12K would be a great base price.