More on Toyota. How to save your company $100, the heck with the customer

[FoMoJo]

I didn't read all the articles.  The original article said that the cop saw the brake lights were on and he could smell the brakes burning.  He pulled along side and told him to pull on the Ebrake and kept shouting over his bull horn to put it in neutral.  Sikes said he was afraid it would flip.  The 911 guy said he was telling him to do stuff but Sikes said he had put his phone on the seat so he could have his hands on the wheel.  With him applying the brakes full force and with the Ebrake on and going up a hill, it eventually slowed to 55 mph when he put it into neutral.

Sounds plausible to me.

That he was 'flooring' the brake with the ebrake on and going up a hill and the cop beside him would still suggest a problem; otherwise the car would have stopped dead.  As for the brake wear, the front was completely gone and the back was almost gone.

[S204STi]

The front still had pad material though, and even without it the friction of metal on metal should have still created significant braking force.  Either way, I like 565's summation; it would have required a ridiculous convergence of simultaneous malfunctions for his story to be true.

[565]

I didn't read all the articles.  The original article said that the cop saw the brake lights were on and he could smell the brakes burning.  He pulled along side and told him to pull on the Ebrake and kept shouting over his bull horn to put it in neutral.  Sikes said he was afraid it would flip.  The 911 guy said he was telling him to do stuff but Sikes said he had put his phone on the seat so he could have his hands on the wheel.  With him applying the brakes full force and with the Ebrake on and going up a hill, it eventually slowed to 55 mph when he put it into neutral.

Sounds plausible to me.

That he was 'flooring' the brake with the ebrake on and going up a hill and the cop beside him would still suggest a problem; otherwise the car would have stopped dead.  As for the brake wear, the front was completely gone and the back was almost gone.

Except he didn't put the car into neutral at 55mph.  He turned the car off at 55mph.

He was repeatedly asked to turn the car off by holding the button down over the phone, and he said he was doing so and the system was failing.  All of a sudden the CHP shows up and it works?

Seriously 3 systems failing on the Prius at the same time.  3 systems not known the fail on priuses before (prius was not part of the accelerator recall), and the brake failsafe was not on the recall either.  Then 3 systems suddenly magically fixing itself upon CHP arrival.

Even without the outright lies to the dispatcher, or his scammer history, that alone makes this completely inplausible.

Also the NHSTA seems confident in backing Toyota's report because of how the Prius was engineered.  They concluded it was not electronically or MECHANICALLY feasible.

http://jalopnik.com/5493033/runaway-prius-memo-oversight-draft-document/

So the way the Prius drivetrain works is outlined and explained.  Basically for this run away incident to happen, not only did there need to be an electronic failure, but a mechanical one as well in the planetary gear sets, because applying the brakes enormously overrevs the engine and causes a seize (the reason why the brake failsafe exists in the first place).  The Prius in question was examined and the drivetrain is fine.

So are you saying not only were there 3 electronic failures that magically resolved upon CHP arrival, but also a mechanical failure and the metal magically healed like flesh after the incident was over.

The simpliest solution is usually right.  You could assume a massive failing of 3 electronic systems and one mechanical one, all magically self repaired.  Or you could just see that the known cheat who lied to police on tape, was indeed lying.

[r0tor]

looks like toyotas official response is "he's a liar" 

good for toyota

[GoCougs]

And here we go:

Normandy Park (Seattle) couple sues Toyota over car's lost value.

A Normandy Park couple have sued Toyota in federal court, demanding that the company either take back the car they just bought or reimburse them for its loss in value since the automaker's sudden-acceleration troubles became news.

Dig the comments; most everyone calls it for the BS that it is, though some dingbat says she had unintended acceleration in a '04 4Runner (and LOL - locked up the brakes bringing it to a stop).

Man this whole Toyota thing sure is a lesson on the moxie that it takes to do business with the general public. WOW.

[giant_mtb]

People. Are. Pathetic.

By this shitty logic, I should be suing a few companies for the money I lost when purchasing their stocks! (PALM!)  GIMME MAH MONEY BACKS CUZ I THOUGHT YOU WAS GOOD BUT THEN YOU SUCKED, AWW HELL NAW!

[r0tor]

Man this whole Toyota thing sure is a lesson on the moxie that it takes to do business with the general public. WOW.

Yea, I don't think I'd ever want to start a business in this day and age.  So many people will try to throw you under a bus just to get something for free...

[GoCougs]

Yea, I don't think I'd ever want to start a business in this day and age.  So many people will try to throw you under a bus just to get something for free...

Toyota is finally starting to fight back.

Toyota: 'Significant Inconsistencies' in Case of Reported Runaway Prius.

[NomisR]

Toyota is finally starting to fight back.

Toyota: 'Significant Inconsistencies' in Case of Reported Runaway Prius.

Damage has been done, and the media will not cover this to the same extent as it has since this type of news would make Toyota look good.  I mean, look at the whole Audi scandal, even though Audi has been proved to be not at fault and media was to be blamed partially for falsifying reports, they still suffered for it.

[AutobahnSHO]

Man this whole Toyota thing sure is a lesson on the moxie that it takes to do business with the general public. WOW.

Don't drag Moxie into this mess!  (Not that I like the stuff..)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxie

[AutobahnSHO]

That he was 'flooring' the brake with the ebrake on and going up a hill and the cop beside him would still suggest a problem; otherwise the car would have stopped dead.  As for the brake wear, the front was completely gone and the back was almost gone.

No, the rear were good.
According to NHTSA and Toyota, there was no indication that the brakes had been "burnt"-   I would GUESS that means the fluid was good.
The computer showed the driver had rapidly pushed the brakes and accelerator 200+ times.

My GUESS is he was heel/toeing to pretend he was outta control. The guy's history is that he's a slimy real-estate swindler, and claimed $7k on stuff stolen out of his car recently. Seriously. ?!.

[AutobahnSHO]

think Honda will face issues??
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100316/ap_on_bi_ge/us_honda_recall;_ylt=ArkdK6ByewRGEG8GYfB3_8.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTJjbzVkYmM4BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMzE2L3VzX2hvbmRhX3JlY2FsbARwb3MDNwRzZWMDeW5fbW9zdF9wb3B1bGFyBHNsawNob25kYXRvcmVjYWw-

[GoCougs]

China the last few years has been on a nationalization rampage of coal mines under the guise of "safety"...

[GoCougs]

think Honda will face issues??
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100316/ap_on_bi_ge/us_honda_recall;_ylt=ArkdK6ByewRGEG8GYfB3_8.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTJjbzVkYmM4BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMzE2L3VzX2hvbmRhX3JlY2FsbARwb3MDNwRzZWMDeW5fbW9zdF9wb3B1bGFyBHNsawNob25kYXRvcmVjYWw-

EVERY automaker is bound to come under even more scrutiny as people come forward will all sorts of "complaints."

[AutobahnSHO]

EVERY automaker is bound to come under even more scrutiny as people come forward will all sorts of "complaints."

Yes, but the way Honda handled it is very different than Toyota. Better to just be outright honest than try to deflect it and stave off the "bad PR"..

[r0tor]

a soft brake pedal does not equate to the PR mess created by a runaway car

[AutobahnSHO]

a soft brake pedal does not equate to the PR mess created by a runaway car

TRUE but they're announcing the recall BEFORE they even have parts available. Don't they usually announce the recall AFTER they're ready to perform repairs?

[NomisR]

TRUE but they're announcing the recall BEFORE they even have parts available. Don't they usually announce the recall AFTER they're ready to perform repairs?

I think Toyota's problem is the fact that they can't really pinpoint the problem but they were forced to do so by the government to put out a fix.  This as a result made the company look worse than it would have if they actually took time to figure out the reason for the problem and then put out a fix. 

Of course the media blame Toyota for the coverup and all that but it was really the NHTSA in the beginning that created the mess because they don't want the media on their backs.. so blame is shifted to Toyota.

[AutobahnSHO]

Maybe Toyota could have had TWO computers in the country to analyze the cars which were suspected of having problems.

[S204STi]

I think Toyota's problem is the fact that they can't really pinpoint the problem but they were forced to do so by the government to put out a fix.  This as a result made the company look worse than it would have if they actually took time to figure out the reason for the problem and then put out a fix. 

Of course the media blame Toyota for the coverup and all that but it was really the NHTSA in the beginning that created the mess because they don't want the media on their backs.. so blame is shifted to Toyota.

I wonder though; the NHTSA usually doesn't panic.  If they issued a recall on every single complaint the recieved without first verifying the cause and the fix it would be a nightmare.  I'd say it's more like Toyota panicked, tried to get it fixed quickly, and in the process missed the actual cause.

[Jon?]

I wonder though; the NHTSA usually doesn't panic.  If they issued a recall on every single complaint the recieved without first verifying the cause and the fix it would be a nightmare.  I'd say it's more like Toyota panicked, tried to get it fixed quickly, and in the process missed the actual cause.

I'm thinking that there must be some systemic trigger that causes them to notify the manufacturer.  That trigger might even be available to the public, but I lack the ambition to research it.

[FoMoJo]

Yes, but the way Honda handled it is very different than Toyota. Better to just be outright honest than try to deflect it and stave off the "bad PR"..

Honda are being proactive.  There have been 3 crashes and no deaths associated with the problem.  Honda are handling it much better than Toyota.  Honda is a much better car company in so many ways.

[FoMoJo]

I think Toyota's problem is the fact that they can't really pinpoint the problem but they were forced to do so by the government to put out a fix.  This as a result made the company look worse than it would have if they actually took time to figure out the reason for the problem and then put out a fix. 

Of course the media blame Toyota for the coverup and all that but it was really the NHTSA in the beginning that created the mess because they don't want the media on their backs.. so blame is shifted to Toyota.

NHTSA are underfunded and understaffed for the expectations that everyone has of them.

[FoMoJo]

I'm thinking that there must be some systemic trigger that causes them to notify the manufacturer.  That trigger might even be available to the public, but I lack the ambition to research it.

I read an article, too lazy to look it up, whereby it said that NHTSA has 'played down' reports of unintended acceleration after, initially, the Audi incident and others where there was never any proof.  It stated that they have a 'policy' regarding this type of incident.  Now, with the case of Toyota with so many incidents, and crashes/deaths, as well as the other manufacturers to a lesser degree, their 'policy' is being revised.  They also need more funding in order to be able to properly investigate all reported problems.  Apparently, there are about 30,000 per year; more now with all the Toyotas running out of control.

[NomisR]

I wonder though; the NHTSA usually doesn't panic.  If they issued a recall on every single complaint the recieved without first verifying the cause and the fix it would be a nightmare.  I'd say it's more like Toyota panicked, tried to get it fixed quickly, and in the process missed the actual cause.

I don't know about Toyota panicking because if I remember correctly, NHTSA did have some officials visit Toyota in Japan regarding the issue.  This almost feels like an effort by the government on trying to bolster Government Motor and Ford's sales, and divert attention from criticism. 

This isn't really Toyota like for them to issue a panic recall like this unless they were receiving pressure from somewhere, which in this case, would be the US gov't.  I mean, they did stick to their guns with the whole sludge issues.

[FoMoJo]

I don't know about Toyota panicking because if I remember correctly, NHTSA did have some officials visit Toyota in Japan regarding the issue.  This almost feels like an effort by the government on trying to bolster Government Motor and Ford's sales, and divert attention from criticism. 

This isn't really Toyota like for them to issue a panic recall like this unless they were receiving pressure from somewhere, which in this case, would be the US gov't.  I mean, they did stick to their guns with the whole sludge issues.

The real reason NHTSA officials went to Japan...Safety Agency Scrutinized as Toyota Recall Grows

In November, top auto safety officials made an unusual request of Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. After reviewing complaints about Toyota vehicles, the regulators said they believed the automaker was stalling their inquiries and wanted to go to Japan to stress just how serious their concerns had become.

Executives at Toyota ?were dragging things out, and we?d had it,? a senior American transportation official said in recounting new details of the talks. ?We were getting excuses that didn?t make sense anymore.?


In the meantime...Toyota weighs Corolla engine stalling fix


Toyota Motor Corp. is considering a fix for nearly 1.2 million Corolla vehicles over engine stalling concerns.

The company told the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in a March 2 letter that it doesn't think the problem is a safety defect.

"Toyota does not believe that the alleged defect creates an unreasonable risk to motor vehicle safety," Toyota said. "We understand that some customers have been inconvenienced by engine (control module) failure, and some have reported engine stalling."

Toyota said it is still working on a fix and wants to meet with NHTSA on the issue. Toyota's review also includes about 2,500 Matrix vehicles.

Toyota said it is its philosophy that an "engine stall or shutdown is preferable as opposed to allowing the engine to become damaged or dangerous (i.e. catastrophic failure, fire, etc.)."

Last November, NHTSA opened an investigation into the 2006 Toyota Corolla and Matrix with the 1ZZ-FE engine after receiving 26 complaints alleging engine stall. Some of the stalls took place on highways or intersections -- a situation that could pose a safety hazard. NHTSA has since received another 30 complaints on the issue.
............

Toyota said it has been investigating the issue since 2007 and has since improved the module. It said cracks can occur at high temperatures in the module and said the failure over 10 years is projected at between 0.3 percent and 0.8 percent, based on the model year.

[r0tor]

so a .3 to .8% failure rate over a 10 year span is now considered unacceptable????

[FoMoJo]

so a .3 to .8% failure rate over a 10 year span is now considered unacceptable????

So it seems .

In reality, it's rather amazing that there is such a low failure rate.  However, when failures, not saying the Corolla, are associated with crashes and deaths, then it gets blown out of proportion.  That manufacturers deny they exist or are slow to respond causes problems for them.

[r0tor]

At what point do you actually find it acceptable that there is a risk that something in your car can fail and cause your to crash?  Be it a tire blow out, ball joint failing, power steering quitting, headlights blowing out, brake line rusting through.....

[FoMoJo]

At what point do you actually find it acceptable that there is a risk that something in your car can fail and cause your to crash?  Be it a tire blow out, ball joint failing, power steering quitting, headlights blowing out, brake line rusting through.....

Well, it's not really me, is it?  I don't care that much.  It's public perception.  Toyota's been riding that train for a long time and getting away with it.  Now it's bit them in the ass .