Inside Line: 1998 Integra Type R Vs. 2010 Honda Civic Si

[Raza]

Read again.

Never said I didn't want an ITR.  I just wouldn't want to put such a car through the paces of winter and moronic drivers here.  I'd rather it be a weekend/track car.

Also, the Si has a sunroof, which has become a big thing for me.

I wasn't facepalming your argument, just that you were arguing.  Consider the counterparty.

[Raza]

Dude, that doesn't really make sense.  A sunroof typically makes the car seem more airy, less confined.  After all, when you open it up, you look up and see the sky.

It's true that they rob headroom, but it's not that much.  I'm 6', and I have plenty of headroom in my car.

It makes plenty of sense.  All that open air and sunlight can make a guy feel downright trapped. 

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I was going to buy a ITR a few years back(more like 5 or 6).

I figured it wasn't worth the hassle, sure it is a amazing car but I figured all the work it would have been outrunning asians trying to follow me home and the resulting shooting of said asians in my garage at 3am wouldn't be worth the mental, financial or legal trouble.

[Rupert]

I hate sunroofs in cars. They make me feel claustrophobic.

Do you know what claustrophobic means?

[GoCougs]

I don't know that there's been any major progress in Honda reliability in the last decade.

I was thinking primarily of engines, especially such high RPM one. Manufacturing tolerances, materials, and general engineering is better than it was back then.

[GoCougs]

You realize that for humans (not robots/clones/androids) there may be more to be considered in car ownership than safety/reliability/durability

I mean at least acknowledge through a computer glitch in your program that through some probabilistic mutation that that may be a possibility

The ITR slaloms about 5 MPH faster, grips harder and brakes shorter so odds are it would be able to avoid an accident more than the CSi which to me is worth more than any safety feature

And it still has dual air bags and anti lock brakes so it's not exactly a rattle trap

The fact that good low mileage ITRs command more $$$ than they cost new (sometimes even with inflation considered) speaks to how their valued amongst the strange group of individuals who enjoy driving them and cars like them

And if Honda similarly stripped a modern C-Si, its performance would be?

Problem is a heckuva lotta more people want to buy the refinement of a C-Si than the "visceral" I-R. Thus, why there is no stripper C-Si analogous to the I-R.

[sportyaccordy]

I was thinking primarily of engines, especially such high RPM one. Manufacturing tolerances, materials, and general engineering is better than it was back then.

The K20 has a fatter torque curve (than a 2.0 liter ITR engine would) because of its variable timing on the intake cam. Still though, the ITR's 1.8 is only down 5 HP (and I think 5-7lb-ft of torque), plus it revs much higher (I think fuel cutoff is damn close to 9K) and of course is in a much lighter car.

And if Honda similarly stripped a modern C-Si, its performance would be?

Problem is a heckuva lotta more people want to buy the refinement of a C-Si than the "visceral" I-R. Thus, why there is no stripper C-Si analogous to the I-R.

If we are to look at every car through a business model lens no relatively enjoyable cars would ever be made. We would all suffer with hopelessly disconnected Accord and Camry sedans, with the occasional V6 thrown in for the odd "speed demon".

Honda really wouldn't have to lose its shirt on a new Type-R. The aftermarket & road racing contingent for the new CSi shows that there is enough support for small, much lower profit margin boutique type tuning entities to make a profit on select parts. A factory package (not even a full blown hand built labor intensive zero profit piece like the original ITR) with track biased brakes + suspension and various power parts would be a great match for the demand. There are a large group of former Honda enthusiasts who have either continued to stick with the old or are so turned off by Honda's more corporate direction that they've moved on.

Let's not forget Honda dumped tons of money into the never profitable S2000 & NSX. Let's also not forget Honda released the $30,000 Mugen Civic Si (which was nothing more than a normal one with a body kit), and that the Civic Type R lives on with great success in Japan. A new US market Civic "Type-R" could recapture that old market without being a financially losing proposition. I mean outside of the previous Accord V6 6speed coupe and the S2000 I don't know if there's a Honda that's come out in the past 5 years that I would buy. I'd rather take my chances with a GTI, G35, MS3 etc which is the way a lot of Honda enthusiasts have gone.

[2o6]

Spoon Fit!

[Raza]

And if Honda similarly stripped a modern C-Si, its performance would be?

Problem is a heckuva lotta more people want to buy the refinement of a C-Si than the "visceral" I-R. Thus, why there is no stripper C-Si analogous to the I-R.

The hole in that argument is that there are a few stripper versions of the Civic Si.  They just aren't sold here.  So while you're correct that more people would rather have the more well rounded Civic Si, there are still people in markets where it's cheaper to sell multiple versions of cars who want to buy the stripped, more track-ready versions of the Civic. 

[Raza]

Let's also not forget Honda released the $30,000 Mugen Civic Si (which was nothing more than a normal one with a body kit)

That is incorrect.

[r0tor]

I was going to buy a ITR a few years back(more like 5 or 6).

I figured it wasn't worth the hassle, sure it is a amazing car but I figured all the work it would have been outrunning asians trying to follow me home and the resulting shooting of said asians in my garage at 3am wouldn't be worth the mental, financial or legal trouble.

If you ever reconsider the ITR, remember its only legal to shoot someone in your garage if the garage is attached to your house!

[r0tor]

I'd pick the ITR over a new C-Si just because I hate the new civic fast yet rediculously numb steering and an interior that just doesn't do anything for me...

[sportyaccordy]

That is incorrect.

And suspension and special blue paint, sorry. Easily $10K worth of equipment over a stock Si 

[FlatBlackCaddy]

And suspension and special blue paint, sorry. Easily $10K worth of equipment over a stock Si 

Mugen = JDM, something that can not be valued with your humans useless paper currency.

[Raza]

And suspension and special blue paint, sorry. Easily $10K worth of equipment over a stock Si 

7K. 

I love people who dismiss the car without ever having driven one.  I have driven both.  The Si is a very good, very fun car.  The Mugen is worth every penny.

[sportyaccordy]

7K. 

I love people who dismiss the car without ever having driven one.  I have driven both.  The Si is a very good, very fun car.  The Mugen is worth every penny.

With a decent coilover suspension (that would cost no more than $2500 purchased, installed and aligned) a base CSi can outhandle + out "fun" a Mugen CSi. The car was a total ripoff.

[Raza]

With a decent coilover suspension (that would cost no more than $2500 purchased, installed and aligned) a base CSi can outhandle + out "fun" a Mugen CSi. The car was a total ripoff.

Wait.

Stop the presses.

You're saying that you can modify a car after you buy it?  And that in modifying, you can make it better than a car sold by the factory? 

This just blew my mind.  But you'll have to excuse me for a minute, I need to decide between an apple and an orange. 

[S204STi]

7K. 

I love people who dismiss the car without ever having driven one.  I have driven both.  The Si is a very good, very fun car.  The Mugen is worth every penny.

Hmm...  I may have to reconsider my dismissal of this car.

My only problem with the ITR is that it's a serious fanboi car.  The only people who drive them are the same type who have three different import and/or honda magazine subscriptions, and the pages are all sticking together. 

Unfortunately, the WRX is gradually gaining that status as well.

[sportyaccordy]

Wait.

Stop the presses.

You're saying that you can modify a car after you buy it?  And that in modifying, you can make it better than a car sold by the factory?  

This just blew my mind.  But you'll have to excuse me for a minute, I need to decide between an apple and an orange.  

You can buy the Mugen Civic suspension, yes, the same one that transforms the CSi to the MCSi, for $600 BRAND NEW from Honda. That and the exhaust are the only performance affecting differences between the two cars. It is not worth every penny of $30K.

[Raza]

Hmm...  I may have to reconsider my dismissal of this car.

My only problem with the ITR is that it's a serious fanboi car.  The only people who drive them are the same type who have three different import and/or honda magazine subscriptions, and the pages are all sticking together. 

Unfortunately, the WRX is gradually gaining that status as well.

Being honest, is there a little price inflation here?  Yes.  But you're talking about it being a limited run model that is indeed noticeably better than the standard car.  If I could hop in the way back machine, and I had 30-35 grand to spend on a car in 2008, I'm having a hard time thinking up a scenario where I don't end up with a Mugen.  The ITR may be a more visceral experience, but in the Mugen you are just so keyed in, it's incredible.  The first car I compared it to in my mind in terms of driving experience was the Lotus Elise, and I'm not joking.  I can't think of any other sedan that was just that fun and involving that I've driven, and I've driven a few cars. 

[Raza]

You can buy the Mugen Civic suspension, yes, the same one that transforms the CSi to the MCSi, for $600 BRAND NEW from Honda. That and the exhaust are the only performance affecting differences between the two cars. It is not worth every penny of $30K.

I went for the apple, thanks for asking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

[sportyaccordy]

Hmm...  I may have to reconsider my dismissal of this car.

My only problem with the ITR is that it's a serious fanboi car.  The only people who drive them are the same type who have three different import and/or honda magazine subscriptions, and the pages are all sticking together. 

Unfortunately, the WRX is gradually gaining that status as well.

There are a lot of serious ITR road racers. In fact I think those are the only guys who can manage to keep those cars without them getting stolen.

And the WRX, even in STI trim, is too high volume a car to obtain the ITR's mythical status. Up in the NE they are a dime a dozen. I see more WRXs than regular Imprezas. They're excellent cars for sure... probably on equal standing of driving enjoyment as a GS-R, close to an ITR, but not quite there.

The thing about the WRX is it makes so much sense. The 2000-2001 Audi S4 was unreliable, needless complex and not that fast. The WRX was everything it should have been (outside of the interior and exterior design).

[sportyaccordy]

I went for the apple, thanks for asking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

So you would willingly throw away $6000?

[Raza]

So you would willingly throw away $6000?

I can't think of a better car under 30 grand. 

[S204STi]

I wouldn't consider it a throw-away to spend more on a car if it fits with your priorities and is worth it on a personal level.  It's like the same way I'd totally throw down on an STI even though the current WRX is statistically a better buy.

[sportyaccordy]

I wouldn't consider it a throw-away to spend more on a car if it fits with your priorities and is worth it on a personal level.  It's like the same way I'd totally throw down on an STI even though the current WRX is statistically a better buy.

Maybe we just see things differently. If the only difference between a $22K car and a $30K car is a $600 set of springs and shocks, and I really like the $30K car, the logical thing to do would be to get the $22K car and have the $600 set of springs installed. Wouldn't the outcome be the same?

The differences between the base WRX and STi are much deeper than those between the CSi and MCSi. I'm not a fan of the new WRX, but between the old WRX and STi sedans I would probably spring for the STi if given the chance, even though it wouldn't take much to bring a base WRX to the STi's power levels.

[Raza]

Maybe we just see things differently. If the only difference between a $22K car and a $30K car is a $600 set of springs and shocks, and I really like the $30K car, the logical thing to do would be to get the $22K car and have the $600 set of springs installed. Wouldn't the outcome be the same?

Similar.  Not the same. 

[sportyaccordy]

Similar.  Not the same. 

What else is there besides an exhaust, paint and a body kit?

[S204STi]

There is a pretty big difference between a factory engineered suspension package and a set of Eibachs.

Granted, with a downpipe and sway bars I'm sure I could hang with an STI in most conditions.  Actually, I know for a fact that I can hang with Evos and STIs running full out on a mountain road.  But it's not the same.

[SVT_Power]

[hemi]

If you want to go aftermarket and spend less while getting more, why not pick up a old mustang and drop 10 grand on it? It'll be faster in every sense than any civic, even through the corners. Voila! You've saved thousands and it's a better driving car!

[/hemi]

More seriously, yeah it makes more financial sense to go aftermarket. But there's something called EXCLUSIVITY.