Inside Line: 1998 Integra Type R Vs. 2010 Honda Civic Si

[r0tor]

Very few aftermarket suspensions put on by Mr. joe schmoe will ever be as sorted out as a decent OEM one unless your spending big bucks from something from KW/Ohlins/Koni AND actually know how to dial a suspension in

... otherwise all you get is stiff as a board suspensions with horrendous ride quality and horrid performance on real world roads and not absolute perfectly smooth tracks

[sportyaccordy]

Aftermarket suspensions really aren't that bad

Even my suspension now, which is less than ideal, is decent. The ride is meh but the handling is excellent.

[r0tor]

Aftermarket suspensions really aren't that bad

Even my suspension now, which is less than ideal, is decent. The ride is meh but the handling is excellent.

Yea they are that bad and if people would actually start testing them they would find out their setup isn't any better or in most cases worse the OEM... super and low and overly stiff does not equate to actual performance

[Raza]

What else is there besides an exhaust, paint and a body kit?

Is that a serious question?

[Raza]

Yea they are that bad and if people would actually start testing them they would find out their setup isn't any better or in most cases worse the OEM... super and low and overly stiff does not equate to actual performance

I mean, don't get me wrong; it is very possible to set up a good aftermarket suspension...if you know what you're doing. 

[sportyaccordy]

Yea they are that bad and if people would actually start testing them they would find out their setup isn't any better or in most cases worse the OEM... super and low and overly stiff does not equate to actual performance

I don't have any quantitative evidence, but the confidence I have in my car over a stock one is immense. Handling is completely neutral and the damping begins to "make sense" as speeds increase. The only gripe I have is low speed damping could be stronger, and I could use more travel. I've had enough suspensions to have a faint idea of what works...

[MX793]

I don't have any quantitative evidence, but the confidence I have in my car over a stock one is immense. Handling is completely neutral and the damping begins to "make sense" as speeds increase. The only gripe I have is low speed damping could be stronger, and I could use more travel. I've had enough suspensions to have a faint idea of what works...

I don't have much experience with automotive aftermarket suspensions, but in the world of off-road motorcycles there's not really such a thing as an "off-the-shelf", mass produced aftermarket suspension like there are with cars.  When you want to upgrade your suspension from stock, you contact a suspension company and they take down some information (skill level, weight, type of riding you do...) and you typically send them your stock suspension and they revalve the dampers and install new springs based on what you've told them.  You then often have to fine tune it yourself to some degree (and you often need to tinker with settings from one track to the next based on terrain and soil type).  It's not like with cars where you just call up Eibach or where-ever and buy a set of coil-overs for an XYZ model car.

[sportyaccordy]

Is that a serious question?

Kind of but not really

The 2008 model year also brought into production the limited-edition 2008 Civic Mugen Si Sedan, which was announced at the 2007 SEMA auto show.[23]  The Mugen sedan came only in Fiji Blue Pearl, and featured a higher-flowing cat-back exhaust, track-tested sport suspension, an exclusive Mugen grill, an exclusive shift knob, Mugen Si badges on the exterior and interior, and a Mugen body kit custom designed for the American trim. Production was limited to only 1000 units, and the car carried an MSRP of $29,500.[24]  Even with additional features, the road tests at Shannonville showed the performance of the Mugen Si to be roughly equivalent to the standard Civic Si coupe.[25]

[Raza]

Kind of but not really

Worthless post.  You're still looking at it the wrong way.

Whole <> sum(parts)

[Vinsanity]

I have to agree with sporty. If a $600 kit off the parts counter from a Honda dealership can turn a regular Civic Si into a Mugen, then that's a no-brainer for me. Yes, there's something to be said of exclusivity, but that doesn't matter to me if I'm going to be whipping it around the track.

[SVT666]

I can't think of a better car under 30 grand. 

I can.

[SVT666]

Very few aftermarket suspensions put on by Mr. joe schmoe will ever be as sorted out as a decent OEM one unless your spending big bucks from something from KW/Ohlins/Koni AND actually know how to dial a suspension in

... otherwise all you get is stiff as a board suspensions with horrendous ride quality and horrid performance on real world roads and not absolute perfectly smooth tracks

Aftermarket suspensions are a lot better then they used to be.  Take Roush for example.  Amazing suspensions and are fairly reasonably priced.

[MX793]

Aftermarket suspensions are a lot better then they used to be.  Take Roush for example.  Amazing suspensions and are fairly reasonably priced.

But doesn't Roush only make Mustang suspensions?  It's a little easier to make decent aftermarket suspensions when you only have to focus on a single model (and thus you can dedicate more time and money into testing and development).

[Raza]

I can.

When I see a Mustang GT under 30K, I might be tempted to believe you. 

[S204STi]

For my purposes and priorities, the WRX is still the best deal out there, since the Legacy GT wagon died.

[GoCougs]

Very few aftermarket suspensions put on by Mr. joe schmoe will ever be as sorted out as a decent OEM one unless your spending big bucks from something from KW/Ohlins/Koni AND actually know how to dial a suspension in

... otherwise all you get is stiff as a board suspensions with horrendous ride quality and horrid performance on real world roads and not absolute perfectly smooth tracks

Word up.

[sportyaccordy]

But doesn't Roush only make Mustang suspensions?  It's a little easier to make decent aftermarket suspensions when you only have to focus on a single model (and thus you can dedicate more time and money into testing and development).

Meh

Even still you have companies like Koni and Honda.... up until they moved to struts in front the only differences in Honda suspensions were the corner weights, so a one size fits all approach to damping could work. With Koni's expertise they have setups that really are better than OEM.

There are a lot of shit suspension companies out there that literally have one shock for each spring rate (regardless of corner weight, motion ratio etc), and even THOSE setups aren't terrible. Are they track ready? No, but they firm up response and enable a lower CoG that helps handling. But that's up to maybe 6/10ths. I wouldn't want to be on some 600# springed Taiwanese coilovers in a 2300# Civic at the limits of adhesion.... but for puttering around and maybe some fun highway stuff they're alright.

[CALL_911]

I can.

As can I.



This might be stretching the $30k marker, but if you bargain enough and find a stripper, I'd pick this over the Honda every time:


No, it doesn't look as good as a 328i, but that's okay with me. It still looks decent.

[SVT666]

But doesn't Roush only make Mustang suspensions?  It's a little easier to make decent aftermarket suspensions when you only have to focus on a single model (and thus you can dedicate more time and money into testing and development).

They make suspension for the Mustang, F-150, Fusion, and Focus.

[SVT666]

When I see a Mustang GT under 30K, I might be tempted to believe you. 

WRX, 2011 Mustang V6, Hyundai Genesis Coupe

[GoCougs]

2010 Legacy GT - $27,995

[Vinsanity]

$29,990

[hotrodalex]

I loved my Integra.

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I loved my Integra.

So did MJF....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLyUOQ3PXFA


"cock-o integra"

[Raza]

As can I.

Having driven the MX-5 and MkV GTI, the Civic Si Mugen is definitely a more fun car than either of those.  The GTI might be more well rounded and the better buy overall, but the Civic is more fun, though I hate to admit it.

[Raza]

WRX, 2011 Mustang V6, Hyundai Genesis Coupe

Conjecture on the V6 Mustang from the future, but the S197 GT, Genesis Coupe, and especially the shitty 2008 WRX don't come anywhere close to the Mugen for driver involvement and fun. 

2010 Legacy GT - $27,995

Again, this is a guess, but I'd say your obsession with midsize family sedans is clouding what fun is.  The Legacy certainly is uglier, heavier, and more AWD drive than the Civic, but I'd be willing to be you that 599 you were planning on buying that it doesn't come close to the Mugen in driver involvement. 

$29,990

Definitely not.  Sorry, the reborn Zs have always been somewhat disappointing to drive. 





I admit though, "better" is a very subjective term.  I should have said "more fun" or "more involving", to be more concrete.  Obviously, all the cars mentioned are better than the Civic in one way or another.  The Mustang and Z are faster, the Subarus more practical, the Genesis better looking, the GTI better rounded, the Mazda of course, is a proper sports car.  But if I had 30K and only had one car, I'm still walking away with the Mugen (or the GTI, let's be honest here too; my bias towards Volkswagen is very strong, but it is for a reason).  And I'm not a Honda fanboy, by any means. 

[TBR]

I definitely see sporty's point (which 95% of you all are missing). If you can by a Civic Si for $20k and then the exact same suspension that's on the Mugen (that's OEM developed/approved) for $600 then that makes a lot more sense than paying $30k for the Mugen Si. Plus you don't get stuck with the hideous sedan.

[Raza]

I definitely see sporty's point (which 95% of you all are missing). If you can by a Civic Si for $20k and then the exact same suspension that's on the Mugen (that's OEM developed/approved) for $600 then that makes a lot more sense than paying $30k for the Mugen Si. Plus you don't get stuck with the hideous sedan.

No, we get his point.  But that doesn't mean that it makes it the same, nor does it make him right.  He's saying that modifying a car for less money is the same as buying a new car--a limited edition, with a warranty and exclusivity--and it's just not.  There are things that are intangible about a car, and I don't get why people don't understand that.  I don't get people who think they're driving a spec sheet.

And the sedan is the best way to buy the Civic Si. 

[TBR]

No, we get his point.  But that doesn't mean that it makes it the same, nor does it make him right.  He's saying that modifying a car for less money is the same as buying a new car--a limited edition, with a warranty and exclusivity--and it's just not.  There are things that are intangible about a car, and I don't get why people don't understand that.  I don't get people who think they're driving a spec sheet.

And the sedan is the best way to buy the Civic Si. 

No, numerous people don't seem to understand that the suspension kit he's talking about is OEM developed and the exact same one on the Mugen. At least that's how I am interpreting some of the posts.

You would still have a warranty and exclusivity would hardly be worth $6000, at least not to me.

[Raza]

No, numerous people don't seem to understand that the suspension kit he's talking about is OEM developed and the exact same one on the Mugen. At least that's how I am interpreting some of the posts.

No, I understand that.  And knew that a long, long time before this conversation

You would still have a warranty and exclusivity would hardly be worth $6000, at least not to me.

And there's the rub.  It does come down to what's worth it to each individual.