Inside Line: 1998 Integra Type R Vs. 2010 Honda Civic Si

[SVT_Power]

No, numerous people don't seem to understand that the suspension kit he's talking about is OEM developed and the exact same one on the Mugen. At least that's how I am interpreting some of the posts.

You would still have a warranty and exclusivity would hardly be worth $6000, at least not to me.

I'm 99.9% sure the initial price difference of $6000 will be worth the price of entry in terms of resale value at a later date (well maybe not all 6 grand worth, but a decent chunk of change I'm sure).

[GoCougs]

Again, this is a guess, but I'd say your obsession with midsize family sedans is clouding what fun is.  The Legacy certainly is uglier, heavier, and more AWD drive than the Civic, but I'd be willing to be you that 599 you were planning on buying that it doesn't come close to the Mugen in driver involvement. 

So, a V6 Mustang and WRX go without similar comment???

Don't fall into the "RUPERT" trap of discounting because of the speaker. Discount a thing because of the thing.

[sportyaccordy]

No, we get his point.  But that doesn't mean that it makes it the same, nor does it make him right.  He's saying that modifying a car for less money is the same as buying a new car--a limited edition, with a warranty and exclusivity--and it's just not.  There are things that are intangible about a car, and I don't get why people don't understand that.  I don't get people who think they're driving a spec sheet.

And the sedan is the best way to buy the Civic Si.  

What are the intangibles? The satisfaction of being ripped off?

Even if you bought the wheels, exhaust, suspension, shift knob and body kit, and bought a Fiji Blue base Si brand new, plus had all the parts installed at a certified Honda dealership, one you would still have the same warranty as the Mugen Si, but more importantly it would look, feel & perform exactly the same for less money.

I understand there are some intangibles. But I don't understand how if two cars have the same exact parts installed by Honda, with the same warranty, somehow the more expensive one is the better car. That's not being a purist, it's just being hardheaded.

[Vinsanity]

I really can't think of a situation where I would want to go for the "genuine" Mugen. If I wanted a track/weekend toy, I'll stand by my choice of the 370Z. If I wanted a sharp handling daily driver, I'd take sporty's suggestion and get a Civic Si with the suspension kit.

[MX793]

So, a V6 Mustang and WRX go without similar comment???

Don't fall into the "RUPERT" trap of discounting because of the speaker. Discount a thing because of the thing.

The WRX is more of a driver's car than the Legacy, which is aimed at the mainstream family car market (even the GT).  I've driven the latest, "improved" 2009 WRX and I didn't find it especially involving (no more so than a run of the mill Mazda3), and it was supposedly hugely improved over the 2008 that Raza had driven.  I find it highly unlikely that the larger, heavier, and more mainstream-centric Legacy will be anywhere nearly as engaging to drive as any legitimate sport compact, hot hatch, or performance car.  It's a fast family sedan, and perhaps sporty by midsized family sedan standard, but is simply out of its league against more focused, niche market cars.

[MX793]

What are the intangibles? The satisfaction of being ripped off?

Even if you bought the wheels, exhaust, suspension, shift knob and body kit, and bought a Fiji Blue base Si brand new, plus had all the parts installed at a certified Honda dealership, one you would still have the same warranty as the Mugen Si, but more importantly it would look, feel & perform exactly the same for less money.

I understand there are some intangibles. But I don't understand how if two cars have the same exact parts installed by Honda, with the same warranty, somehow the more expensive one is the better car. That's not being a purist, it's just being hardheaded.

Because the Mugen is a limited edition and a regular Civic with all of the Mugen parts installed at the dealer is just a regular Civic with some dealer installed hop-up parts.

[SVT_Power]

Why are we still arguing this? Some people like having the exclusivity that comes with owning a rare car. And some are willing to pay the price difference for it. We had a STI vs WRX discussion a while ago and whether the STI was worth the money. I think we agreed that the WRX was a better deal, but there were people (I included) who said they'd want a STI for the fact that it's a STI and not just another WRX. If you think buying something for sake of having it is a waste of money, then just don't buy the bloody thing. But there are people out there (and in here) who are willing to pay for it.

[S204STi]

The WRX is more of a driver's car than the Legacy, which is aimed at the mainstream family car market (even the GT).  I've driven the latest, "improved" 2009 WRX and I didn't find it especially involving (no more so than a run of the mill Mazda3), and it was supposedly hugely improved over the 2008 that Raza had driven.  I find it highly unlikely that the larger, heavier, and more mainstream-centric Legacy will be anywhere nearly as engaging to drive as any legitimate sport compact, hot hatch, or performance car.  It's a fast family sedan, and perhaps sporty by midsized family sedan standard, but is simply out of its league against more focused, niche market cars.

I'd say this is probably right.  The previous GT (particularly Spec B trim) wasn't too bad, but this is more of a camcord imitator.

[SVT666]

Conjecture on the V6 Mustang from the future, but the S197 GT, Genesis Coupe, and especially the shitty 2008 WRX don't come anywhere close to the Mugen for driver involvement and fun. 

Who said anything about the 2008 WRX?  The new WRX, from all accounts, is pretty awesome.

[ifcar]

Who said anything about the 2008 WRX?  The new WRX, from all accounts, is pretty awesome.

I think he's just going with the cars he's actually driven.

[Xer0]

My main problem with the Mugen Si is that we got that instead of the new Type R.  They probably would have commanded a similar price too.

[Raza]

So, a V6 Mustang and WRX go without similar comment???

Don't fall into the "RUPERT" trap of discounting because of the speaker. Discount a thing because of the thing.

I discounted them equally. 

[Raza]

What are the intangibles? The satisfaction of being ripped off?

Even if you bought the wheels, exhaust, suspension, shift knob and body kit, and bought a Fiji Blue base Si brand new, plus had all the parts installed at a certified Honda dealership, one you would still have the same warranty as the Mugen Si, but more importantly it would look, feel & perform exactly the same for less money.

I understand there are some intangibles. But I don't understand how if two cars have the same exact parts installed by Honda, with the same warranty, somehow the more expensive one is the better car. That's not being a purist, it's just being hardheaded.

If you're not going to get this then you're not going to get it.  I'm tired of repeating myself. 

[Raza]

I think he's just going with the cars he's actually driven.

Basically.  I'm trying to judge cars I haven't driven with similar cars that I have. 

[r0tor]

There are a lot of shit suspension companies out there that literally have one shock for each spring rate (regardless of corner weight, motion ratio etc), and even THOSE setups aren't terrible. Are they track ready? No, but they firm up response and enable a lower CoG that helps handling. But that's up to maybe 6/10ths. I wouldn't want to be on some 600# springed Taiwanese coilovers in a 2300# Civic at the limits of adhesion.... but for puttering around and maybe some fun highway stuff they're alright.

umm no...

"Stiff" is not needed on a street car.  The RX8. MX5, STi. and 3 series are not stiffy sprung yet handle very VERY well.  DOT tires do not generate the amount of grip needed for "stiff" springs.  Christ my 3,000 lb car has 150lb/in springs and will outhandle just about anything.  "The Lower the better" doesn't work on street cars as you wil futz up the roll center on most cars with anything more then ~1" drop.

If your car had any kind of performance minded suspension setup from factory, the only way your going to improve performance by any real means is a spring setup matched to a damper matched to a sway bar set and matched to a set of tires.  You can make most cars as low/stiff/shitty riding as possible and the actual performance increases (not butt dyno crap) are slim to none and often times worse.  Unless your buying a full suspension package, its a waste of money...

[sportyaccordy]

If your car had any kind of performance minded suspension setup from factory, the only way your going to improve performance by any real means is a spring setup matched to a damper matched to a sway bar set and matched to a set of tires. 

http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=70367

Cliff notes: link to an article on my (not mine specifically) car in a high performance handling handbook. They installed my shocks (Tokico Illuminas), slightly softer springs, a sway bar set, an ES bushing kit and some 225-45 17 tires + corresponding rims. Car went from gripping below .8gs to .93gs. Now I know outright grip is more an indicators of tires, but they also commented that overall the car just handled better, and said its responses & overall handling was better than a stock M3 at the time (E36). And this car, along with all Hondas from the 90s, have performance minded suspensions from the factory- double wishbones in front, multilinks in the rear.

My car doesn't have the sways or bushings, but I have the same shocks, slightly stiffer springs and -1 degrees of static camber all around. I've had and driven a lot of setups on these cars, and out of the box they're not bad. My only regret was passing on a set of more expensive Konis for this.

Your RX-8 outhandles a lot of cars because 1 you have stock 225-45 high performance tires, 2 there's not a lot of weight on the nose, 3 it has a damn good suspension and.... :P 4 it doesn't have the power to overwhelm the chassis. My car now would be no match but I would be very curious to see how your car would hold up against a Koni/Neuspeed/ST sway H22 Accord. I think on a road course things would be much closer than you'd like to admit

[r0tor]

As if a stock Honada Accord ever had any kind of performance minded suspension from factory???  Just because it has double wishbones doesn't mean it was actually tuned from factory to sacrifice some cofort for handling.

Look up modified magazine, a stock S2000CR outhandled 1/2 of the pricey japanese tuning crap in a suspension shootout...

[GoCougs]

The WRX is more of a driver's car than the Legacy, which is aimed at the mainstream family car market (even the GT).  I've driven the latest, "improved" 2009 WRX and I didn't find it especially involving (no more so than a run of the mill Mazda3), and it was supposedly hugely improved over the 2008 that Raza had driven.  I find it highly unlikely that the larger, heavier, and more mainstream-centric Legacy will be anywhere nearly as engaging to drive as any legitimate sport compact, hot hatch, or performance car.  It's a fast family sedan, and perhaps sporty by midsized family sedan standard, but is simply out of its league against more focused, niche market cars.

For the previous generation WRX vs. Legacy GT, the latter had every bit the performance and fun to drive factor as the former, with its sole downside, if you can call it that, was that it somewhat larger. It also happened to be a far more upscale vehicle for not a whole lot more cost.

Admittedly I haven't been in or driven the newer versions of each car, but I'm running with the assumption that the differences are about the same with the new versions of each car, albeit both seem to have moved toward the mainstream side of things.

Per Subaru's website, the price difference is still shockingly small. The base WRX sedan is $24,995 and the base Legacy GT is $27,995. And with the former yet get the 6sp M/T too. I think you'd have to be nuts to buy the WRX, save you wanted the wagon version (which is the exact same base MSRP as the LGT - $27,995).

[r0tor]

author=r0tor link=topic=21394.msg1280914#msg1280914 date=1267534193]
As if a stock Honada Accord ever had any kind of performance minded suspension from factory???  Just because it has double wishbones doesn't mean it was actually tuned from factory to sacrifice some cofort for handling.

Look up modified magazine, a stock S2000CR outhandled 1/2 of the pricey japanese tuning crap in a suspension shootout...

Also in this months car and driver, Lingenfelter managed to completely and utterly h0se the Camaro SS's suspension with stiff ass lowering springs and sways bars...

[Raza]

For the previous generation WRX vs. Legacy GT, the latter had every bit the performance and fun to drive factor as the former, with its sole downside, if you can call it that, was that it somewhat larger. It also happened to be a far more upscale vehicle for not a whole lot more cost.

Admittedly I haven't been in or driven the newer versions of each car, but I'm running with the assumption that the differences are about the same with the new versions of each car, albeit both seem to have moved toward the mainstream side of things.

Per Subaru's website, the price difference is still shockingly small. The base WRX sedan is $24,995 and the base Legacy GT is $27,995. And with the former yet get the 6sp M/T too. I think you'd have to be nuts to buy the WRX, save you wanted the wagon version (which is the exact same base MSRP as the LGT - $27,995).

While I agree with you the Legacy GT is a better value (I didn't even know it came with a 6MT), there's no way the physics of the situation are going to allow it to be as capable as the Impreza.  The previous generation Legacy 2.5GT was about 300 pounds heavier than the WRX, and though larger and heavier, it didn't offer much more space; my compact Jetta is as roomy or roomier than the previous generation.  Other than being better looking and more upscale inside, I don't think the Legacy could have been considered even as good a performance car as the last WRX.  However, whether or not that trade-off is worth it is up to you.  When I was shopping in 2008, personally, the Legacy didn't even come into play.  Although, I probably should have looked into it; at that point, there's no doubt that it was indeed better to drive than the WRX. 

[BimmerM3]

Very few aftermarket suspensions put on by Mr. joe schmoe will ever be as sorted out as a decent OEM one unless your spending big bucks from something from KW/Ohlins/Koni AND actually know how to dial a suspension in

... otherwise all you get is stiff as a board suspensions with horrendous ride quality and horrid performance on real world roads and not absolute perfectly smooth tracks

Here's the thing though - I don't care. I have H&R Springs and KYB AGX shocks on my Accord, and whether or not it's an actual performance gain or not, I enjoy driving my car more now than when it had it's stock suspension.

[Raza]

Here's the thing though - I don't care. I have H&R Springs and KYB AGX shocks on my Accord, and whether or not it's an actual performance gain or not, I enjoy driving my car more now than when it had it's stock suspension.

No one is saying it can't be done.  The general consensus is that it is usually done poorly.

[sportyaccordy]

As if a stock Honada Accord ever had any kind of performance minded suspension from factory???  Just because it has double wishbones doesn't mean it was actually tuned from factory to sacrifice some cofort for handling.

What does how it came from the factory have to do with anything? I'm not talking about crap setups, I'm talking about matched springs and shocks from OE grade manufacturers like Koni and Neuspeed. You're not making any sense

[BimmerM3]

No one is saying it can't be done.  The general consensus is that it is usually done poorly.

r0tor is talking about performance gain - increased lateral Gs, faster slalom speeds, better lap times. While I feel like I can corner a bit harder and I have more confidence in the corners, I have no empirical evidence that my car is statistically better.

My point is that I don't really care about lateral Gs, slalom speeds and lap times because I drive a Honda Accord, not a race car or even a proper sports car. What does matter to me is that I enjoy driving my car more. Since I installed the shocks over Christmas break (I've had the springs for a long time on stock shocks), my body roll is more controlled, the car feels way more neutral in corners, and it just generally feels more composed. Sure, it's a little rougher on bumpy roads, but it's worth the trade off, IMO.

That said, my can't isn't like "LOL SLAMMMED!!!" IIRC, H&R said the springs normally drop the car about 1.5" in the front and about 1.25" in the rear.

[Vinsanity]

...and here I am wondering if my car looks like it's sitting too high on its factory springs and 45 series tires

[the Teuton]

...and here I am wondering if my car looks like it's sitting too high on its factory springs and 45 series tires

Lower it (thro some Ds on dat bitch! (Just bought a Cadillac)).

[Vinsanity]

Lower it (thro some Ds on dat bitch! (Just bought a Cadillac)).

if I'm not mistaken, what all the cool kids are doing nowadays is lifting their automobiles to fit even bigger wheels to them. like a penny-farthing cycle with the large wheel on both ends, if you will...

[the Teuton]

Donking your Cadillac ain't phat, fo realz.

[Vinsanity]

hey, maybe I could do the actual penny-farthing look...put some 24"s in front and the same wheel in 16" in back...I could start a new trend

[BimmerM3]

if I'm not mistaken, what all the cool kids are doing nowadays is lifting their automobiles to fit even bigger wheels to them. like a penny-farthing cycle with the large wheel on both ends, if you will...

I really need to get one of those and ride it around campus. How much do they cost?