Sub $40k SUV of choice.

[Rupert]

4Runner, but I almost voted for the Wrangler.

[CJ]

I think I'd have an XC60 T6 since I won't need off-road ability.

[Rupert]

Not an option.

[Submariner]

FJ

[TBR]

Pathfinder.

[Raza]

[Raza]

I think I'd have an XC60 T6 since I won't need off-road ability it's a Volvo.

Corrected.

[GoCougs]

wut

Yeah, the front end hangs down far too low, and the larger wheels of the limited look cartoonish to me. Other than that it just looks to squarish and ill proportioned. And I haven't been a fan of any of Toyota's recent interiors.

[GoCougs]

Have you guys ever been in or driven a new(er) Wrangler? With refinement that makes an Xterra feel like a Bentley and a 0-60 time in double digits, IMO it's the worse vehicle sold in America today.

[J86]

Driven the new four door.  Also driven a 90s and a 70s Jeep fairly extensively.  It seems like a Jeep... always a car I love for friends to own and never would want myself.  Don't want fancy materials inside. Want to be able to not care if it pours while the top is down!  Save the fancy interiors for the Grand Cherokee...

[ifcar]

Have you guys ever been in or driven a new(er) Wrangler? With refinement that makes an Xterra feel like a Bentley and a 0-60 time in double digits, IMO it's the worse vehicle sold in America today.

A bad car isn't one that does some things poorly in an intentional tradeoff. It's one that fails at what it tries to do.

[WookieOnRitalin]

A bad car isn't one that does some things poorly in an intentional tradeoff. It's one that fails at what it tries to do.

In a way, this has a lot to do with the reality that Jeep is attached to Chrysler that has been a mixed bag of results.

In some ways, I wonder if Jeep would have been better managed by a different Automaker. Jeep has been allowed to do some things that other domestics would never attempt mainly due to the Jeep legacy. It is the most respected American brand. Unfortunately, Chrysler's woes over the years have had a big impact on Jeep.

One of my favorite shows of all time is Babylon 5. It's a science fiction show written by J. Michael Straczynski. It ran from 1992-1998. He was the main force of the show, who wrote a show based on an entire 5 year story arc. In the end, you got a product that was ended up being the series that many people fell in love with on many levels.

What is interesting to note is JMS planned all the seasons and the entire story arc before the show even aired. He had established characters and story lines. It was all essentially sequenced. He did this between 1987-1992 (Spring). It is fascinating that the idea of the show was written from the first episode to the last episode before it even aired is incredible. But it has a built in, inherent flaw that JMS discovered.

He built a story line that was supposed to go in one direction over the course of 5 years with a conclusion based on the characters he created. However, what happened in reality changed the entire nature of the show. Characters had to be recasted, dropped, or were forced out due to conflicts with actors and network executives. Budget concerns always conflicted the nature of the show AND the staff never actually knew if the show was going to be picked up year after year (it was on the now dead PTEN network).

In summary, the show did not turn out the way it had originally intended due to the nature of external forces that forced change to the overall story. It gave you a product that satisfied many, disappointed others, and had the original story come to fruition as originally planned would have been a truly captivating product that would have lasted decades.

Enter Jeep. Jeep ultimately is a victim of Chrysler much like Babylon 5 was to its PTEN and some of its Actors. Much of the details of B5 I have left out, but the parallels are quite striking.

We all know what it cost to bring a car to market. For a brand like Jeep, linked to a struggling automaker for many years has been shortchanged if anything. As B5 was, the ratings for the show never matched much many of the other shows it was competing with. Was that because it was a bad show? Hardly. Watch it if you don't believe me. The reality was that B5 was linked to a very weak network, probably the weakest in television history. It is almost like buying Suzuki or Saturns. You have to go out of your way in some cases just to find a dealer if you can at all. Much the same can be said about B5 and it's ability to reach the masses. It scope was limited due to a lack of ability to reach more people in more places.

Jeep, in the same vain, had to deal with this same issue. It was forced to pull from the collective basket of technology, parts from a cheap automaker. This is not a reflection on Jeep, but on Chrysler.

Jeep could give you refinement. Jeep could give you better interiors. But at the end of the day, Chrysler's inability to supply that refinement at an economical cost is what killed those possibilities. Chrysler is Jeep's problem. Chrysler has been and is the worst major automaker in a variety of elements despite some absolute genius from the people that have worked there over the years. The designers and engineers at Chrysler have been some of the most clever in the industry. I've noticed this cleverness in a variety of their products. In a way, it was necessary to counteract the limitations of Chrysler in the budget department. I digress however.

As stated, Chrysler's pool of technology has been the worst of the automakers. It's engines and transmissions has always been behind the competition in power and refinement.

Could you imagine GM, Toyota, or Honda petrol engines in Jeeps or V-Dub TDI engines in Jeeps?

How would that change the game? How would that change how we view Jeep as a whole. The reason the Jeep legacy has remained is not due to stubborn loyalty. There is a reason Jeep has stuck around and is one of the most profitable American brands. Despite poor quality especially in comparison to the competition, they have kept an allegiance that is really incomprehensible to the outside observer. What he or she will fail to realize is that despite the lack of refinement and quality in the vehicle is there are things that Jeeps can do and have done to develop that customer loyalty.

The only way to explain it is Charisma. Jeeps are far charismatic than any other brand. They are rebels by nature. They go against the grain. They have always stayed away from trends. It goes all the way back to WW2. They were as much soldiers on the battlefield as the actual soldiers. They perform in a way that developed a reputation. They became warriors. They are warriors. For whatever reason that creates gravity. People are drawn to it. As a product, a person who buys a Jeep expects an on road and off road warrior and that is what they get.

Instead of being upset when things go wrong, it is almost viewing it from the perspective of a wounded warrior. You patch em up and just keep fighting. Jeeps will always have more personality, drive, and capability than most major brands. It is that personality that draws people to their vehicles. The reality that 3 Jeeps (though I think the Patriot should be added) on this list compounds that sentiment.

Jeeps are American warriors. Can anyone say that about any other brand? They achieve victory and conquer territories that would not otherwise be conquered. In those moments, celebration resonates in the driver. A surprising satisfaction that goes into the bones. It creates a sense of belief in their drivers.

What belief is that? Anything is possible. Even if a Jeep gets stuck, the owner will dig it out and try to keep going. They believe they can get passed any obstacle. It becomes a metaphor for the actual owner to believe in what he or she can accomplish...at least, true owners. Some owners are yuppies buying a status they do not deserve. Those people do not continue to buy Jeeps. They end up buying a Mercedes, BMW, or Toyota.

Jeeps are built behind with a purpose in mind and despite their flaws, will continue to sell.As long as the American Spirit of endless possibilities exists, Jeep will exist. It is a monument to who we are and nothing will change that.

[S204STi]

Yeah, the front end hangs down far too low, and the larger wheels of the limited look cartoonish to me. Other than that it just looks to squarish and ill proportioned. And I haven't been a fan of any of Toyota's recent interiors.

Well, tastes differ I guess.  I saw one on the road as was thoroughly pleased.

[S204STi]

Driven the new four door.  Also driven a 90s and a 70s Jeep fairly extensively.  It seems like a Jeep... always a car I love for friends to own and never would want myself.  Don't want fancy materials inside. Want to be able to not care if it pours while the top is down!  Save the fancy interiors for the Grand Cherokee...

Yeah, when you buy a Wrangler I don't think you do it so that you'll be coddled.

[SVT32V]

Have you guys ever been in or driven a new(er) Wrangler? With refinement that makes an Xterra feel like a Bentley and a 0-60 time in double digits, IMO it's the worse vehicle sold in America today.

Yet a 4 cylinder 4skinner is OK in the acceleration dept.?  Please, at least the Wrangler was done right with its latest incarnation, not a single major problem.

Tha same can't be said for the toyota wonder FJ with its cracking windshields and body cracking in half.

[SVT32V]

As stated, Chrysler's pool of technology has been the worst of the automakers. It's engines and transmissions has always been behind the competition in power and refinement.

Could you imagine GM, Toyota, or Honda petrol engines in Jeeps or V-Dub TDI engines in Jeeps?

Jeep engines are just fine, maybe the 4 cyl is less that stellar but everything else is fine.

What is wrong with the 5.7 Hemi, it is more than competitive in every sense, it is certainly more refined than GM pushrods and higher tech. 

Further Jeep has had help from Mercedes, the 5 spd auto is sourced from MB, yeah a 6 spd would be better but with competitive gas mileage and better performance than similar models.

In addition MB also supplied CRD diesels to GC and libertys and to the wrangler in non US markets, what could honda add to this an overbored single cam V6?. 

The 4.7 is more than competitive putting out more power than toyota 4cam/32V V8 or similar V8 engines in other SUVs

The only area Jeep could benefit is an increased output base V6.

[Rupert]

I just cannot see you using a Jeep like that.

[Rupert]

Have you guys ever been in or driven a new(er) Wrangler? With refinement that makes an Xterra feel like a Bentley and a 0-60 time in double digits, IMO it's the worse vehicle sold in America today.

So not the point of a Wrangler. I wish there were sports cars sold today in the same vein as the Wrangler-- low tech, traditional, basically unchanged for decades.

[MX793]

Jeep engines are just fine, maybe the 4 cyl is less that stellar but everything else is fine.

What is wrong with the 5.7 Hemi, it is more than competitive in every sense, it is certainly more refined than GM pushrods and higher tech. 

It's a good engine, but I'm not sure I'd say it's higher tech than GM's latest pushrod small blocks.  I'm pretty sure the Hemi isn't using any sort of VVT, which GM has implemented in their pushrod motors.

Further Jeep has had help from Mercedes, the 5 spd auto is sourced from MB, yeah a 6 spd would be better but with competitive gas mileage and better performance than similar models.

The 5AT in the Grand Cherokee and Dodge trucks was actually a Chrysler-developed transmission.  I believe the 5AT in the LX cars (300, Charger, Challenger) was Mercedes-sourced.

In addition MB also supplied CRD diesels to GC and libertys and to the wrangler in non US markets, what could honda add to this an overbored single cam V6?.

Actually, the motor in the Liberty CRD came from Italian company VM Motori.

[ifcar]

So not the point of a Wrangler. I wish there were sports cars sold today in the same vein as the Wrangler-- low tech, traditional, basically unchanged for decades.

MX-5?

[93JC]

Actually, the motor in the Liberty CRD came from Italian company VM Motori.

Wrangler, too. The only Mercedes-Benz diesel used in Jeeps is the 3.0 L V6 in the Grand Cherokee (and overseas Commanders).

[93JC]

MX-5?

Cutting edge as any other sports car.

[ifcar]

Cutting edge as any other sports car.

It's changed about as much as the Wrangler in the last 20 years. That's not to say that the MX-5 hasn't changed, but the degree is similar.

[Rupert]

No way.

The way I've seen the difference between an NA and NC Miata explained is that, with the NA, you want the one with no options, and with the NC, you want the options. I want the NA.

[ifcar]

No way.

The way I've seen the difference between an NA and NC Miata explained is that, with the NA, you want the one with no options, and with the NC, you want the options. I want the NA.

I don't follow. No one forces you to buy a loaded car if you don't like those luxuries. And obviously some changes to both the Wrangler and MX-5 have been safety mandates over the years.

[Rupert]

Huh?

I'm saying that the NA was more in the spirit of the old sports cars like the MGB than the NC. It doesn't matter what changes are safety mandates, they're still changes. My point was that the NA was better without options, and the NC is better with options. I've never driven an NC, or a modern Jeep, so maybe I should just STFU.

[ifcar]

Huh?

I'm saying that the NA was more in the spirit of the old sports cars like the MGB than the NC. It doesn't matter what changes are safety mandates, they're still changes. My point was that the NA was better without options, and the NC is better with options. I've never driven an NC, or a modern Jeep, so maybe I should just STFU.

I didn't say the MX-5 has gotten more like a 1960s sports car. But the MX-5 and Wrangler are among the cars that have changed the least over the decades, which I thought was what you were getting at.

[Tave]

Have you guys ever been in or driven a new(er) Wrangler? With refinement that makes an Xterra feel like a Bentley and a 0-60 time in double digits, IMO it's the worse vehicle sold in America today.

I've had extensive time in both a new 2-door stripper and Unlimited Rubicon.

What do you mean in terms of refinement? In terms of ride and engine, I think the Wrangler is ahead of Nissan. The Wrangler also feels more solidly built than the Xterra, although the interior appointment is cheap (but durable).

You're exaggerating about the power too, as all new Wranglers get the 3.8L V6. It's not fast by any means, but it isn't the slug that the old I4 was.

[Rupert]

I didn't say the MX-5 has gotten more like a 1960s sports car. But the MX-5 and Wrangler are among the cars that have changed the least over the decades, which I thought was what you were getting at.

Eh, close enough.

[GoCougs]

One of my favorite shows of all time is Babylon 5. It's a science fiction show written by J. Michael Straczynski. It ran from 1992-1998. He was the main force of the show, who wrote a show based on an entire 5 year story arc. In the end, you got a product that was ended up being the series that many people fell in love with on many levels.

Hey, one of my favorites as well. Disagree about the 5 year arc however. It was originally planned for 4 years, and why all major plot lines were wrapped up at the end of S4. The network granted S5 unexpectedly. Most of the TV movies blew too save for In The Beginning , which I thought was fantastic.