Lutz to retire 1 may

[FoMoJo]

I disagree, people are paid what the market shall bare.  If there are enough people that are willing to do one job at a lower wage using similar skills, why would you spend double that for the same?  Market wage prevails.  If those people do not wish to work at such a low wage, they are free to take their marketable skills elsewhere, nobody is forcing them to take the low wage jobs. 

If business had not assumed an autocratic approach to management there would have been no need for unions.  If management had acted more responsibly towards measures of safety and other worker atrocities, there would have been no need for unions.  That labour could unite in its demands proved effective and, therefore, used this to its marketing advantage.  That management proved too weak to resist excessive labour demands was its failure.  Blaming labour for ineffective management is absurd.

[SVT666]

If business had not assumed an autocratic approach to management there would have been no need for unions.  If management had acted more responsibly towards measures of safety and other worker atrocities, there would have been no need for unions.  That labour could unite in its demands proved effective and, therefore, used this to its marketing advantage.  That management proved too weak to resist excessive labour demands was its failure.  Blaming labour for ineffective management is absurd.

I agree completely.  Unions were created because employers would fire anyone who didn't work all of his waking hours in dangerous and poorly paid conditions.  Management is to blame for the creation of unions.  There is no denying that.  If you do, then you don't know history. 

I really enjoy reading the diatribe from fresh university grads like Cougs, who think they know all the answers because they read a book.

[the Teuton]

But the unions were created to protect laborers in ways that federal laws do now anyway. They're redundant.

[TBR]

I guess the real proof of this discussion might be to look at the compensation packages of GM management and compare that to the company's performance for the period 1975-2008.  I doubt there is a positive correlation between what the top tier of executives were earning and GM's performance.

All too often you don't get what you pay for; you get far less.

You'll also notice that on an individual basis GM execs didn't make all that much.  I'd imagine there were way too many of them though.

[TBR]

Exactly. 

Everybody is greedy for the fast buck.  If they don't get it, or they lose it, they blame the government.  I blame the "ME" generation .

I blamed the generation that made the ME generation the ME generation. That'd be yours...

[TBR]

But the unions were created to protect laborers in ways that federal laws do now anyway. They're redundant.

This is true.

Now the union are just other hands in the pocket of Americans.

[The Pirate]

I blamed the generation that made the ME generation the ME generation. That'd be yours...

I think Nomis is around my age.  Dazzle's generation is the guilty party.

[TBR]

I think Nomis is around my age.  Dazzle's generation is the guilty party.

Oops, meant to quote fomojo.

[SVT666]

But the unions were created to protect laborers in ways that federal laws do now anyway. They're redundant.

Yes, but that doesn't change the reason why unions were created in the first place.  Besides, if you think laws stop companies from mistreating employees now, you're kidding yourself.  Most employees can't afford the recourse.  You have to pay a lawyer or you could be blackballed from the industry...like me.  I didn't pursue things because of that risk.

[the Teuton]

Yes, but that doesn't change the reason why unions were created in the first place.  Besides, if you think laws stop companies from mistreating employees now, you're kidding yourself.  Most employees can't afford the recourse.  You have to pay a lawyer or you could be blackballed from the industry...like me.  I didn't pursue things because of that risk.

Whistleblowing, as my ethics course taught be, often has more negative repercussions than positive ones. That's just the nature of the game.

And tell me at least as specifically as you can what a union has done to stop such mistreatment that the law couldn't.

[GoCougs]

That you WANT government to guarantee you a job on your terms does not rewrite history as it pertains to government's (in)action in creating adverse employers and the corresponding response that was the creation of unions.

It's simply revisionist (= false) history to believe the once-benevolent labor union fought for worker "rights" and otherwise changed things for the better.

[Rupert]

This seems like a good place for a hardy LOL.

[SVT666]

Whistleblowing, as my ethics course taught be, often has more negative repercussions than positive ones. That's just the nature of the game.

And tell me at least as specifically as you can what a union has done to stop such mistreatment that the law couldn't.

First, I want to make it clear that I'm not a fan of unions in the least.  They promote mediocrity and an Us vs Them atmosphere int he work place.  But, the my dad's teacher's union has stepped up in his defense in the past, but they have also done everything they could to ruin his career when he crossed the picket line.

[SVT666]

That you WANT government to guarantee you a job on your terms does not rewrite history as it pertains to government's (in)action in creating adverse employers and the corresponding response that was the creation of unions.

It's simply revisionist (= false) history to believe the once-benevolent labor union fought for worker "rights" and otherwise changed things for the better.

You're retarded.  Oh, and you also don't know shit. 

I love how recent university grads think they know everything there is to know.  The creation of unions DID make working conditions and workers pay much better.  You can thank unions for the 40 hour work week and paid holidays.  You can thank them for safer working conditions and work sites.  You can thank unions for health care benefits too.  Unfortunately you can also thank them for unreasonably high wages, strikes during a recession, sense of entitlement, and high taxes.  But I would gladly take all that so I don't have to work 80 hours a week, pay $20K for new teeth if I happen to take a header into a concrete pipe, and take holidays with my family.

Personally, I wish unions would scale back what they do.  They still have their place, but they currently overstep their boundaries in leaps and bounds.

[Byteme]

In response to a statement by GoCougs

You're retarded.  Oh, and you also don't know shit. 

I

That's pretty much an insult to retarded people everywhere.   

[SVT666]

In response to a statement by GoCougs
That's pretty much an insult to retarded people everywhere.   

I apologize to all retarded people everywhere.

[AutobahnSHO]

Personally, I wish unions would scale back what they do.  They still have their place, but they currently overstep their boundaries in leaps and bounds.

They can't.
Once they get started and win on ANYTHING then they will always push for more.

[GoCougs]

You're retarded.  Oh, and you also don't know shit. 

I love how recent university grads think they know everything there is to know.  The creation of unions DID make working conditions and workers pay much better.  You can thank unions for the 40 hour work week and paid holidays.  You can thank them for safer working conditions and work sites.  You can thank unions for health care benefits too.  Unfortunately you can also thank them for unreasonably high wages, strikes during a recession, sense of entitlement, and high taxes.  But I would gladly take all that so I don't have to work 80 hours a week, pay $20K for new teeth if I happen to take a header into a concrete pipe, and take holidays with my family.

Personally, I wish unions would scale back what they do.  They still have their place, but they currently overstep their boundaries in leaps and bounds.

Recent - wat? I completed undergrad in '96 and an MBA in '04...

You've created this mythical, revisionist history of labor unions, and I dare say it ain't doing you any favors.

First, who only works 40 hour work weeks? Not I, and virtually no one I know of.

Second, work place conditions are safer because competition amongst the labor pool pushed it that way.

Third, health benefits for non-union employees are provided at 100% the pleasure of the employer.

[Byteme]

Recent - wat? I completed undergrad in '96 and an MBA in '04...

if so that's a commentary on the sad state of higher education in this country.

And if you paid tuition you should be demanding a refund.

[NomisR]

If business had not assumed an autocratic approach to management there would have been no need for unions.  If management had acted more responsibly towards measures of safety and other worker atrocities, there would have been no need for unions.  That labour could unite in its demands proved effective and, therefore, used this to its marketing advantage.  That management proved too weak to resist excessive labour demands was its failure.  Blaming labour for ineffective management is absurd.

Again, labor has the right to quit and find another job if they find the conditions too extreme for the wage.  If enough labor quits, the company would be forced to raise their wages or improve conditions to attract employees.  This happens regardless of unions. 

Hell, this happens in China too believe it or not, you have employers volunteerily improves wages and working conditions to attract employees because they need the labor...  OMG, without the forces of the unions or the government...

Unions are not needed as if economic conditions are right, the situation would improve due to demand outpacing supply.  It just takes time and people are impatient. 

[GoCougs]

They can't.

Once they get started and win on ANYTHING then they will always push for more.

That is, until they kill there respective industries; mining, steel, textiles, and now the auto industry, have been destroyed in the US because of unions.

But this is no coincidence; unions pervasiveness tracks with the level of government - meaning, where there is more government there are more unions. The USSR was the most unionized economy the world has ever seen. Quasi socialist Europe and Japan are somewhere in the middle. The US is at the bottom simply because we have the least government involvement in the economy in the industrialized world. By far.

[GoCougs]

if so that's a commentary on the sad state of higher education in this country.

And if you paid tuition you should be demanding a refund.

Haven't you yet realized that personal attacks = acquiescence; meaning, you're acknowledging to the 'SPIN world that you think I am your better? (When it comes to my Internetry, I would have to agree with you actually.)

[Byteme]

Haven't you yet realized that personal attacks = acquiescence; meaning, you're acknowledging to the 'SPIN world that you think I am your better? (When it comes to my Internetry, I would have to agree with you actually.)

Actually I think you are a pathetic crawling shit, crying for attention, but that's beside the point.  I do mean that in the nicest possible way.    

[Galaxy]

The creation of unions DID make working conditions and workers pay much better.  You can thank unions for the 40 hour work week and paid holidays.  You can thank them for safer working conditions and work sites.  You can thank unions for health care benefits too.  Unfortunately you can also thank them for unreasonably high wages, strikes during a recession, sense of entitlement, and high taxes.  But I would gladly take all that so I don't have to work 80 hours a week, pay $20K for new teeth if I happen to take a header into a concrete pipe, and take holidays with my family.

Personally, I wish unions would scale back what they do.  They still have their place, but they currently overstep their boundaries in leaps and bounds.

That sums up the good and the bad nicely.

[Galaxy]

Again, labor has the right to quit and find another job if they find the conditions too extreme for the wage.  If enough labor quits, the company would be forced to raise their wages or improve conditions to attract employees.  This happens regardless of unions. 

Hell, this happens in China too believe it or not, you have employers volunteerily improves wages and working conditions to attract employees because they need the labor...  OMG, without the forces of the unions or the government...

Unions are not needed as if economic conditions are right, the situation would improve due to demand outpacing supply.  It just takes time and people are impatient. 

That is true for highly qualified work. For jobs that require little in training, companies can always find abundant personal. There would always be someone desperate enough who would be willing to do anything.

[NomisR]

That is true for highly qualified work. For jobs that require little in training, companies can always find abundant personal. There would always be someone desperate enough who would be willing to do anything.

Yes, and that's their free will to do so..

It's like the agricultural industry in the US, they complain that they can't find any work and that's why they need illegals to work, well, it's a free market economy, they should raise their wages to entice people to work in their industry.  It works both ways.

[Galaxy]

Yes, and that's their free will to do so..

It's like the agricultural industry in the US, they complain that they can't find any work and that's why they need illegals to work, well, it's a free market economy, they should raise their wages to entice people to work in their industry.  It works both ways.

From their perspective they would be stupid to raise wages. Up untill recently the US has turned  a blind eye to illegal immigrants, there was little consequence in doing so.

[NomisR]

From their perspective they would be stupid to raise wages. Up untill recently the US has turned  a blind to illegal immigrants, there was little consequence in doing so.

Yeah, they should enforce their immigration policy as in the long run, the income to the migrant workers do not directly benefit our economy since majority of their pay is returned to their home country as remittences.  I support the enforcement of immigration as this directly impacts the security of the country. 

[GoCougs]

And the end of the day, much of the world, like our very own ETypeJohn, wants a guaranteed job, at a guaranteed wage, with guaranteed benefits, all of which to be decided by the "greater good" - meaning, having such things legislated and otherwise out of the hands of the ONLY entities that should make such decisions (the employers). This is very disappointing.

[Galaxy]

And the end of the day, much of the world, like our very own ETypeJohn, wants a guaranteed job, at a guaranteed wage, with guaranteed benefits, all of which to be decided by the "greater good" - meaning, having such things legislated and otherwise out of the hands of the ONLY entities that should make such decisions (the employers). This is very disappointing.

Hardly anyone agrees with the typical auto and airline union (those two groups seem to make up the bulk of the problems on both sides of the Atlantic),  but most unions are not that troublesome, in many cases it can make human resources more efficient because you have a common address for a large group of people.

Also unions can prevent governments from stepping into the process. Germany has no minimum wage. Well, the Bundestag passed one but the German Constitutional Court bagged it since it violated the wage autonomy. It is the unions, not the governments role to fight for better pay. Of course the government can empower the unions to a certain degree, but otherwise they have to step back and watch the process.