BMW to go front-drive

[nickdrinkwater]

I don't doubt that for a second.  Nor did I claim that. 

The 1 series is a compromised package, which is why it's not selling very well.  I see dozens of 3ers everyday, yet only one or two of the cheaper 1 series. 

It's a case of positioning I think.  IIRC, the 1 Series is only sold as a coupe in the US, and only with larger engines.  It's a small luxury car.

In the rest of the world it's available in 3dr and 5dr body styles and with smaller engines.  The price difference can be much greater and befitting of the difference in size.

The 1 Series is actually BMW's second best selling car after the 3 Series.  The only reason they'd need to change the formula would be to save money.  And risk diluting or even extinguishing the car's appeal.

[2o6]

I would enjoy a 120i 5-door.

[Raza]

Starting the 128 coupe at $28K was BMW's grand mistake with the 1er. If they brought over the 120i and priced it at $23K they wouldn't have a problem moving them. Why they went with the larger engine confounds me - a 170HP 1er would have been just fine and would have allowed them to come in at a better price that appeals to people who would have ponied up to drive a well-handling BMW with a peppy (but not extremely powerful) engine at a decent price.

The car is simply too expensive for the market to which it appeals most. The old 318i sold wonderfully here. No reason a 118i or 120i wouldn't, and because of the smaller engine size it wouldn't even "dilute" the 3-Series brand which could be perceived as a bit larger and more powerful. For the right price, I'd consider a 1er tomorrow.

I'd certainly consider a 323i.

[Colonel Cadillac]

They should bring over the 123d and market it as a cheap, efficient, BMW. It's got 204HP, so I imagine it's no slouch either.

I don't understand why the European makes don't take more advantage of their diesel lineups over here.

The X5d has a cruising range of 600 or so miles and the E320 CDI has a cruising range in the 500's IIRC. These are great marketing points. 40 MPG and you fill up about half as much as the average person. Throw those two facts into a commercial with some driving thrill and I'm sure they'd attract a decent showing. **

Has BMW been advertising the diesels at all?

**Also, what's with commercials that claim owners "aren't at the pump nearly as much when they got into their new Civic (or whatnot)" when that's just a load of crap? Good MPGs does not mean a great cruising range. Big gas tank does.

[Raza]

They should bring over the 123d and market it as a cheap, efficient, BMW. It's got 204HP, so I imagine it's no slouch either.

I don't understand why the European makes don't take more advantage of their diesel lineups over here.

The X5d has a cruising range of 600 or so miles and the E320 CDI has a cruising range in the 500's IIRC. These are great marketing points. 40 MPG and you fill up about half as much as the average person. Throw those two facts into a commercial with some driving thrill and I'm sure they'd attract a decent showing. **

Has BMW been advertising the diesels at all?

**Also, what's with commercials that claim owners "aren't at the pump nearly as much when they got into their new Civic (or whatnot)" when that's just a load of crap? Good MPGs does not mean a great cruising range. Big gas tank does.

I've seen commercials for the 335d.

Actually, do they sell that in a manual?

[the Teuton]

I've seen commercials for the 335d.

Actually, do they sell that in a manual?

Nopers. Though most BMW drivers couldn't care less.

[MX793]

They should bring over the 123d and market it as a cheap, efficient, BMW. It's got 204HP, so I imagine it's no slouch either.

I don't understand why the European makes don't take more advantage of their diesel lineups over here.

1)  Americans have demonstrated a strong dislike of diesels in the past
2)  Up until very recently, no diesels would pass emissions in the "Green States" that use California's stricter emissions standards, which means there are a couple of very large state markets (Cali and NY among them) that they couldn't even sell them in.  Even now, I think there are only a few Euro diesel engines that are 50 state approved.

[cawimmer430]

2)  Up until very recently, no diesels would pass emissions in the "Green States" that use California's stricter emissions standards, which means there are a couple of very large state markets (Cali and NY among them) that they couldn't even sell them in.  Even now, I think there are only a few Euro diesel engines that are 50 state approved.

I don't get it.

THIS is allowed in California:




And this isn't?




Or this (GL320 Bluetec)?

[MX793]

I don't get it.

THIS is allowed in California:




And this isn't?




Or this (GL320 Bluetec)?

Trucks are classified as "commercial vehicles" and are thus exempted from passenger car emissions requirements.

And the latest Bluetec and VW diesels are 50-state certified.  I'm not sure if any of BMW's motors are yet.

[cawimmer430]

Trucks are classified as "commercial vehicles" and are thus exempted from passenger car emissions requirements.

This rule should be changed - soon.

[Morris Minor]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704841304575138433002454608.html

EYES ON THE ROAD
MARCH 24, 2010
Luxury Drivers, Beware
By JOSEPH B. WHITE

When BMW AG Chairman Norbert Reithofer declared last week that his company would start making front-wheel-drive BMWs, there were screams from Stuttgart to Sacramento. BMW, after all, had built the Ultimate Driving Machine franchise on rear-wheel-drive cars. Now Mr. Reithofer appears to be chipping away at what made luxury cars so luxurious.

Auto enthusiasts?including many automotive designers and engineering executives, as well as wealthy car buyers?generally prefer cars to have the driving wheels in the back. It makes a difference in the way a car handles and steers. That difference is instantly recognizable but hard to define.

A rear-drive car is "livelier, it's more direct-connected to the road," says Dave Leone, global vehicle chief engineer for General Motors Co.'s rear-wheel-drive and performance cars, including the Cadillac CTS, Chevrolet Camaro and Chevrolet Corvette.

Mr. Reithofer's challenge is fueling the debate over what makes a luxury car special. It's a question that luxury-car buyers and luxury-car brands have been struggling with ever since volatile oil prices and environmental regulators began pressing car makers to evolve away from the "bigger is better" approach to marketing premium vehicles.

The advantages of front-wheel drive are mainly practical. Because the drive train, engine and steering gear are all packaged together under the hood, it's easier to give more space to passengers or cargo inside.

Front-wheel-drive cars are usually better in snow, because the engine weight is located over the driving wheels. And they typically get better fuel economy and thus emit less carbon dioxide than similar-sized rear-drive vehicles?although today's rear-wheel-drive cars are closing the gap.

Still, front-wheel-drive cars suffer from being pegged as relatively unexciting to drive. Driven hard into a curve, they tend to plow sideways. They can also be susceptible to annoying "torque steer," which occurs when unequal amounts of power are sent to the left and right front wheels, causing the car to lurch in one direction or the other.

The success of BMW and Mercedes-Benz over the past 30 years helped burnish the idea that true premium cars were driven by their back tires. In 2002, after years of losing market share with front-wheel-drive models, Cadillac relaunched itself with a new rear-wheel-drive car, the CTS, to compete with the BMW 3 series.

"For the last 60 years we have defined performance as the number of cylinders and cubic capacity," says Ian Robertson, BMW's global head of sales and marketing. Eight cylinders and five liters was better than four cylinders and two liters.

In the future, Mr. Robertson says, what makes a "premium" car will be equated with technology. "The number of cylinders will not be irrelevant," he says. "But we are moving toward that."

To survive in this new world, he says, BMW must build more small models without breaking the bank. Purists won't like it, but that means sharing the front-wheel-drive systems of future Mini models with future subcompact BMW models.

Japanese luxury brands have been divided on the issue. Honda Motor Co.'s Acura brand launched with a front-wheel-drive flagship car, the Legend, and derived most of its other cars from front-wheel-drive chassis. More recently, Acura has promoted all-wheel drive, which resolves the debate by asking a different question: Wouldn't you rather have driving power from all four tires?

Toyota Motor Corp.'s Lexus brand has both rear-wheel and front-wheel-drive cars?the former aimed at potential BMW customers, the latter more at defectors from Detroit. Nissan Motor Co.'s Infiniti brand revived itself in the past decade with a performance-oriented, rear-wheel-drive strategy represented by the Infiniti G37.

The financial crisis, the 2008 oil-price shock and the resurgence of social and governmental concern about the amount of oil cars burn and the carbon they emit is now forcing another rethink. To comply with the tough new greenhouse-gas and fuel-economy rules in the U.S. and Europe, car makers need to build smaller models that both sip fuel and make money.

"It's a different world," says Jim Hall, an automotive-industry consultant.

BMW is getting some help from its rivals as it moves away from rear-wheel-drive fundamentalism. Volkswagen AG's Audi brand, which has long sold mainly front-wheel and all-wheel-drive cars, has worked to make front-wheel drive more appealing by moving the engines closer to the front axle, designing more-sophisticated suspensions and engine mounts to manage torque steer, and using systems such as stability control to make cars less apt to plow through curves.

Cadillac switched its SRX sport-utility vehicle to a front-wheel/all-wheel-drive chassis from a rear-drive setup?and sales of the model took off. The old SRX got three awards from the car-enthusiast magazine Car and Driver, says GM's Mr. Leone, but real customers appear to like the new model much better. Now, Cadillac is showing a prototype for a front-wheel-drive midsize car called the XTS, which would appeal to consumers who value comfort over speed.

Rear-wheel drive may not even be that important for some of BMW's new customers. Mr. Reithofer told analysts last week that BMW had a survey that found 80% of the customers for the BMW compact 1 series, which in Europe is sold mainly with four-cylinder engines, didn't know it was a rear-wheel drive car.

Mr. Hall, the consultant, says the truth is that most drivers probably can't tell whether they are driving one kind of car or another. As technology narrows the performance differences, he says, "luxury cars don't have to be defined by which ends drive them."

[Morris Minor]

...  Jamie Kitman even once loudly stated that the Mini was a car made specifically for homosexuals....

Hey, watch it with the stereotypes, buddy! My uncle drives a Mini, and he's not a homosexual.

... oh wait, he is. 

[Morris Minor]

Somebody should do survey in the US. Ask all those pretty blonde college chicks if their BMW 3-Series is FWD, AWD or RWD.
The answer they will give you is, "Huh? Like oh my god what are you talking about, dude!?"
^Guaranteed!^ 

From the article above.

"Rear-wheel drive may not even be that important for some of BMW's new customers. Mr. Reithofer told analysts last week that BMW had a survey that found 80% of the customers for the BMW compact 1 series, which in Europe is sold mainly with four-cylinder engines, didn't know it was a rear-wheel drive car."

It would seem that such ignorance is not confined to American college chicks.

[Raza]

Hey, watch it with the stereotypes, buddy! My uncle drives a Mini, and he's not a homosexual.

... oh wait, he is. 

Well, clearly I don't much care for stereotypes when it comes to cars.  I've had an E class, a Passat, and a Jetta; not exactly the most "masculine" cars you can find on the market.  Even the Boxster was the butt of jokes on primetime sitcoms, regardless of the fact that it was a best in class sports car since its inception. 

The people who lose in stereotypes are the ones who hold too true to them.  Those able to brush off the image and go for what makes them happy are the ones who benefit.  I have noticed that image matters quite a bit more to Brits than we Americans, based on Top Gear and the Knowledge pros/cons section of Evo.  For one, the Mini JCW is top on my list of cars to replace my Jetta.  I just used Kitman's example as a reason why BMW would see a market segment to fill with a small BMW that the Mini couldn't. 

[Madman]

Seriously, if BMW wants to sell front drive models, they should do so under the Triumph brand which BMW owns the rights to.  BMWs will remain rear drive and Triumph gets to make a triumphant (sorry, I couldn't resist!) to the market!  Everybody wins.  unfortunately, that makes too much sense, so it will never happen.


Madman of the People

[Morris Minor]

Well, clearly I don't much care for stereotypes when it comes to cars.  I've had an E class, a Passat, and a Jetta; not exactly the most "masculine" cars you can find on the market.  Even the Boxster was the butt of jokes on primetime sitcoms, regardless of the fact that it was a best in class sports car since its inception. 

The people who lose in stereotypes are the ones who hold too true to them.  Those able to brush off the image and go for what makes them happy are the ones who benefit.  I have noticed that image matters quite a bit more to Brits than we Americans, based on Top Gear and the Knowledge pros/cons section of Evo.  For one, the Mini JCW is top on my list of cars to replace my Jetta.  I just used Kitman's example as a reason why BMW would see a market segment to fill with a small BMW that the Mini couldn't. 

I was just joshing you; I have no problems with stereotypes; they don't work unless they're based on some truth and it can be amusing when people conform. My wife gets a kick out of going to England and seeing all the Brits with bad teeth. My uncle is 72-years-old, is gay and drives a Mini, so Kitman was not too wide of the mark.

Back on topic. BMW makes awesome cars and has a stellar reputation, so when the do screw up, people yell that much harder. The 1 series is a screw-up and I have a hunch that diluting their market differentiator: RWD cars that are a blast to drive, will also be a screw-up.

[Byteme]

I guarantee you the BMW will be more expensive.

Yeah, but it will be a BMW so of course it will be worth every penny they are asking.   

[MexicoCityM3]

Back on topic. BMW makes awesome cars and has a stellar reputation, so when the do screw up, people yell that much harder. The 1 series is a screw-up and I have a hunch that diluting their market differentiator: RWD cars that are a blast to drive, will also be a screw-up.

The 1 series is not a screw-up around the world. I see tens of 1 series hatches here every day. They are quite popular in Europe as well. Most buyers may be clueless and buying for the badge but that applies to most luxury cars in every segment (even Porsches are bought by idiots who have no idea what they are getting it). The coupe is priced a little too close to the 3 series which limits its appeal.

Regarding driving dynamics I can vouch for the 130i hatch. It is fantastic, I have tracked it and it has 95% of the performance of an E46 M3 in a practical package albeit with limited rear space.

[93JC]

Seriously, if BMW wants to sell front drive models, they should do so under the Triumph brand which BMW owns the rights to.  BMWs will remain rear drive and Triumph gets to make a triumphant (sorry, I couldn't resist!) to the market!  Everybody wins.  unfortunately, that makes too much sense, so it will never happen.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. There's no brand equity left in Triumph cars.

And Triumph made sports cars: how the hell is being reduced to front-drive econoboxes 'triumphant'?

[Madman]

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. There's no brand equity left in Triumph cars.

And Triumph made sports cars: how the hell is being reduced to front-drive econoboxes 'triumphant'?

Triumph also built sedans and wagons, some of which were front drive.


Madman of the People

[93JC]

And look where pieces of crap like the Acclaim got them...

[MX793]

I think the Acclaim was the only FWD Triumph, and it wasn't even made by Triumph.  It was a rebadged Honda.

[TurboDan]

1 series is a screw-up and I have a hunch that diluting their market differentiator: RWD cars that are a blast to drive, will also be a screw-up.

The only screw-up is on the pricing, though. I think people like the car, they just don't think it's worth the price BMW is charging. The real screw-up with the 1er was putting in larger engines to "justify" the cost. They should've went with a 118i or 120i and dropped the price by a few thousand. Their sales would probably be pretty good then.

The rest of the world doesn't have to jump in with a 128 and the price tag that comes with it.

[93JC]

There were other front-drive Triumphs. The fact that you can't remember any of them speaks volumes.

[the Teuton]

Might it be possible that BMW cannot go downmarket in the US? Let's witness the 318i, the 318ti, and the 1er. None of them were successful here.

I know that the answer is probably a resounding STFU, but I thought the Mini was created to be BMW's downmarket car.

[TurboDan]

Might it be possible that BMW cannot go downmarket in the US? Let's witness the 318i, the 318ti, and the 1er. None of them were successful here.

Why do you say the 318i/ti didn't work here? I used to see tons of them on the road during their heyday.

[dazzleman]

The only screw-up is on the pricing, though. I think people like the car, they just don't think it's worth the price BMW is charging. The real screw-up with the 1er was putting in larger engines to "justify" the cost. They should've went with a 118i or 120i and dropped the price by a few thousand. Their sales would probably be pretty good then.

The rest of the world doesn't have to jump in with a 128 and the price tag that comes with it.

I think this is true.  The 1-series is priced in a range that runs into the lower end 3-series.  I was having this conversation with the salesman at my dealer.

[nickdrinkwater]

The 1 series is a screw-up and I have a hunch that diluting their market differentiator: RWD cars that are a blast to drive, will also be a screw-up.

The 1 Series is anything but a screw up, it accounts for a fifth of all BMW sales!

I agree with the second part of your statement though.  I think the reason BMW gets forgiven for cars like the X6 and 5GT is due to their enthusiast appeal.  If they compromise that they begin to lose their credibility.  It doesn't matter if 1 Series buyers don't know what drivetrain their cars has, it's a case of BMW scrapping one of their core brand values.

I think this is a result of BMW realising that the MINI brand actually has pretty limited mileage, in that you can only go so far with the product range until it loses it's direction.  Therefore they want to expand their FWD program with the BMW brand.  But at what cost?

[MX793]

The 1 Series is anything but a screw up, it accounts for a fifth of all BMW sales!

I agree with the second part of your statement though.  I think the reason BMW gets forgiven for cars like the X6 and 5GT is due to their enthusiast appeal.  If they compromise that they begin to lose their credibility.  It doesn't matter if 1 Series buyers don't know what drivetrain their cars has, it's a case of BMW scrapping one of their core brand values.

I think this is a result of BMW realising that the MINI brand actually has pretty limited mileage, in that you can only go so far with the product range until it loses it's direction.  Therefore they want to expand their FWD program with the BMW brand.  But at what cost?

Maybe it sells well in Europe, but in the US it is priced very closely to the 3 series and does not sell very well.  I think I've seen maybe 3 of them out on the road since they've been on sale in the US.  Meanwhile, I see lots of late model 3-series and 5 series.

[nickdrinkwater]

Maybe it sells well in Europe, but in the US it is priced very closely to the 3 series and does not sell very well.  I think I've seen maybe 3 of them out on the road since they've been on sale in the US.  Meanwhile, I see lots of late model 3-series and 5 series.

It was never going to do well in the US though, given Americans' dislike of small cars.