The agressive moron..

[S204STi]

I think some guys like Lebowski have made a good point about matching force with force.  Sometimes it's better to also carry some pepper spray and use that to incapacitate the guy rather than drawing your firearm.  Basically, it should be the last thing you do.

[Submariner]

From my limited reading of criminal law, if you're shooting first, you're going to have a veeeeeery difficult, if not impossible sell that you were justified in doing so, barring the other guy actually trying to knife you.  Even then, in some jurisdictions...

My case would have been relatively straight forward.  Then again, I had a lot in my favor.  My car was boxed in, the man was armed, he had a criminal history that spanned from here to Boston and he was a wanted man.  Then again, I'd assume not many cases would have such obvious intent with regards to the aggressor...

[Submariner]

I think some guys like Lebowski have made a good point about matching force with force.  Sometimes it's better to also carry some pepper spray and use that to incapacitate the guy rather than drawing your firearm.  Basically, it should be the last thing you do.

That's a valid point.  Though, in my case, the very action of reaching into my shirt was enough to stop the thug in his tracks.  Like I said, I don't even think he saw a weapon, but he knew better than to charge...

Brandishing a weapon can be a very successful deterrent, too. 

[Rupert]

Or it can be a very successful way to get shot.

[GoCougs]

Brandishing is a crime in many/most jurisdictions and most civil defense instructors will similarly tell you it is an extremely bad idea from a tactical POV.

[S204STi]

It's like the saying, don't point a gun at something unless you intend to destroy it.  Don't show it off unless you plan to use it.

[Rupert]

Aye. A gun is a serious and deadly tool, and not the equivalent of a puffed-out chest and mean look.

[Submariner]

If an aggressor is coming at you, drawing a pistol and pointing it at him usually stops him dead in his tracks.  One doesn't need to fire a shot to accomplish this.  

I wasn't claiming that the best way to deal with a situation is to pull out a gun, hold it out to the side all the while yelling "what up not, bitch! check my 9!"

As I said before, the only time such an action should be taken is when one feels it's absolutely necessary for ones safety, and all other options have been exhausted.  I don't think of a gun as an expensive penis pump, and never will. 

[Rupert]

It might stop the person, or it might not, and you'll have to shoot them. Or, they'll stop and pull their own gun out, and you'll have to shoot them.

The action that you're doing is not, "pulling out a gun," it's "getting ready to shoot someone."

[Submariner]

It might stop the person, or it might not, and you'll have to shoot them. Or, they'll stop and pull their own gun out, and you'll have to shoot them.

The action that you're doing is not, "pulling out a gun," it's "getting ready to shoot someone."

Yes, the intent to shoot usually stops someone from reacting in kind.  Most police officers dont draw their gun, only to see the thug reach for his.  I suspect there would be far fewer criminals on the street if that were the case.

Reaching for mace could very likely be construed as me reaching for a gun.  In that scenario, I might temporarily disable someone, but they also may be firing a pistol wildly in the air, with the potential to hit myself, or innocent bystanders.

Your point is well taken, though.  It's a tricky situation either way.  

[GoCougs]

If said aggressor isn't presenting an imminent danger of death or grievous bodily harm; he's merely coming at you without a weapon; you now become the criminal for drawing down on him (at least in my state, I have to imagine many/most/all other states are similar).

[Submariner]

If said aggressor isn't presenting an imminent danger of death or grievous bodily harm; he's merely coming at you without a weapon; you now become the criminal for drawing down on him (at least in my state, I have to imagine many/most/all other states are similar).

I remember my instructor at S&W saying that it's not a crime to draw a weapon if someone is demonstrating that they have every intent to come at you and cause you physical harm - gun or not.  I may have misunderstood him, in which case, I should probably have that law clarified.  I guess I should be thankful then that I didn't in fact go past the reaching stage.

Again, I was boxed in and I felt that I was in danger of being seriously harmed (he followed me a good distance just to get the chance).  I understand that the fact he had a knife on him was irrelevant, as I didn't know until after, but I'd wager a good deal on him using it if he got within range of me.  

[GoCougs]

I remember my instructor at S&W saying that it's not a crime to draw a weapon if someone is demonstrating that they have every intent to come at you and cause you physical harm - gun or not.  I may have misunderstood him, in which case, I should probably have that law clarified.  I guess I should be thankful then that I didn't in fact go past the reaching stage.

Again, I was boxed in and I felt that I was in danger of being seriously harmed (he followed me a good distance just to get the chance).  I understand that the fact he had a knife on him was irrelevant, as I didn't know until after, but I'd wager a good deal on him using it if he got within range of me.   

Its intent is likely to make the legal gun carrier avoid at all possible avenues any confrontation that may lead to an escalation to deadly force. My state however also has a "stand your ground" law, meaning if you find yourself in a confrontation that has not yet escalated to the point of lethality you do not have to retreat (which n some states you have to retreat by law if you are carrying).

[Submariner]

Its intent is likely to make the legal gun carrier avoid at all possible avenues any confrontation that may lead to an escalation to deadly force. My state however also has a "stand your ground" law, meaning if you find yourself in a confrontation that has not yet escalated to the point of lethality you do not have to retreat (which n some states you have to retreat by law if you are carrying).

It's understandable - a gun should be an absolute last resort.

Not only was I literally boxed in (the cars were tightly parked - I could squeeze by, but he would have caught me, but my girlfriend was a sitting target.  Even with locked doors, the thug could have broken the window to get to her.

I suppose ramming his vehicle would have been an option, but I guess a vehicle is no different than a firearm at that point...

[TBR]

2 lane country road at night. I am going the speed limit of 55, but this redneck in a Dodge Ram is tailgating me. I decide to accommodate him as I don't want him right on my bumper in case of an emergency stop (deer season) so I inch it up to 60-62. Still tailgating and now he flashes his brights. I slow back down to the speed limit, he continues tailgating and flashing, and eventually makes an unsafe pass. I make the mistake of flash my brights to let him know he's a douche. This didn't sit well with him so he slams on the brakes. So, 15 seconds after tailgating me while I am going 5 over he's going 30ish in a 55. I drive a mile or so past my house (it's directly off the road), and then pull a quick u-turn and go back. This all happens in about 4 miles. This entire road is maybe 8 miles long so going faster than 55 serves almost no purpose.

[Eye of the Tiger]

2 lane country road at night. I am going the speed limit of 55, but this redneck in a Dodge Ram is tailgating me. I decide to accommodate him as I don't want him right on my bumper in case of an emergency stop (deer season) so I inch it up to 60-62. Still tailgating and now he flashes his brights. I slow back down to the speed limit, he continues tailgating and flashing, and eventually makes an unsafe pass. I make the mistake of flash my brights to let him know he's a douche. This didn't sit well with him so he slams on the brakes. So, 15 seconds after tailgating me while I am going 5 over he's going 30ish in a 55. I drive a mile or so past my house (it's directly off the road), and then pull a quick u-turn and go back. This all happens in about 4 miles. This entire road is maybe 8 miles long so going faster than 55 serves almost no purpose.

It's flash to pass, not flash to be a douche to the douche, douche.

[TBR]

It's flash to pass, not flash to be a douche to the douche, douche.

How I am supposed to help him pass me on a two lane road with no shoulder? Especially when you're on a road that consists almost entirely of blind curves.

[Eye of the Tiger]

How I am supposed to help him pass me on a two lane road with no shoulder? Especially when you're on a road that consists almost entirely of blind curves.

According to this poll, 68% of people think flashing a polite way to request that you allow him/her to pass (Dodge Ram)
While 23% think it is an act of aggression or road rage (TBR)
http://www.techstation.com/flpspoll.htm

If someone flashes, you slam on  your brakes and swerve off the road, immediately, to let them by.   

[TBR]

According to this poll, 68% of people think flashing a polite way to request that you allow him/her to pass (Dodge Ram)
While 23% think it is an act of aggression or road rage (TBR)
http://www.techstation.com/flpspoll.htm

If someone flashes, you slam on  your brakes and swerve off the road, immediately, to let them by.   

Well, in this case the 23% are right.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Well, in this case the 23% are right.

Maybe there was a time, but nobody ever actually uses it for passing, anymore. The switch might be labeled "PASS", but they could just remove the "P" and save some money.

[dazzleman]

Well, in this case the 23% are right.

My driver's manual said that if you're going to pass a car on a 2-lane road, you should flash your brights to signal intent to pass.

[Eye of the Tiger]

My driver's manual said that if you're going to pass a car on a 2-lane road, you should flash your brights to signal intent to pass.

Signaling intent to pass is like saying hey, "you're a slow bitch and I'm better than you at life, so get out of my way", and their response to that rarely has anything to do with letting you pass. It's better just to surprise the shit out of them so they can't block you.

[Byteme]

Signaling intent to pass is like saying hey, "you're a slow bitch and I'm better than you at life, so get out of my way", and their response to that rarely has anything to do with letting you pass. It's better just to surprise the shit out of them so they can't block you.

I think it has a lot to do with location.  Just about anywhere I've driven outside of major metro areas flash to pass is accepted for just what it implies.  Slide up behind another car going slower in a multilane highway, flash your lights and they generally move to the left.  On a two lane road you signal, pull out to pass and flash your lights to let them know you are coming around.  We were taught that for that situation you flash your lights at night, and give a brief tap on the horn during daylight just to let the guy you are passing know you are there.  It helps if you don't fly up behind the guy at 90 MPH and then tailgate while planning your pass.  In most of the country courtesy is returned if it's given.

I was taught long ago to flash my lights at at 18 wheelers after they pass me to let them know when it's safe for them to pull back over.  About 70% of the time I'm given a blink of their running lights as acknowledgement.  

In a lot of areas in rural Texas slower drivers will pull over onto the shoulder on a two lane road, if the shoulder is paved, to let faster driver's by.  Again, it helps is one doesn't drive like an ass while hoping the slower driver will pull over.

[r0tor]

Usually in these situations I tend to take a turn at 2-3x the recommended speed, and usually the asshat will follow me and either crash (happened 3 times already) or almost crash (happened many more times)

[GoCougs]

I don't think it's an act of road rage but I still think it's being a jerk save for an extenuating circumstance; such as you're driving a hay truck that can do more than 20 mph, then sure it's a courtesy. TBR's most recent is indicative of what I see; people being bullies or otherwise forcing others to accommodate driving above and beyond prevailing and/or common sense rules of the road. (I have to admit I've done it myself.)

Do that on your on time IMO; please don't inconvenience me, expect me to pull off the road, or suffer the risk of you AJFoyting it down the highway. I think it's just easier to drive like a regular person and do your thing without inconveniencing, agitating or bullying others, and don't be too surprised if you get return behavior you don't like. We are Americans after all; "Don't Tread on Me" is the operative phrase here.

[S204STi]

Usually in these situations I tend to take a turn at 2-3x the recommended speed, and usually the asshat will follow me and either crash (happened 3 times already) or almost crash (happened many more times)

hehe...

[BimmerM3]

I don't remember the original hypo.

I don't even carry a gun and I'm a terrible shot.  So any thought of me blowing somebody's head off is also purely hypothetical.

At the ranges we're talking about here, I don't think it matters how bad of a shot you are.

Sure, but now you're changing the facts from the original hypo. 

In what situations would shooting first be acceptable?

[BimmerM3]

Usually in these situations I tend to take a turn at 2-3x the recommended speed, and usually the asshat will follow me and either crash (happened 3 times already) or almost crash (happened many more times)

[Rupert]

Whenever I read this thread title, I see, The aggressive maroon.

[mzziaz]

Whenever I read this thread title, I see, The aggressive maroon.

Me too!