An old but interesting article on "history and heritage" and why it works in EU

[cawimmer430]

If all that subjective stuff you guys speak of was really so important Lexus would not be the success it is in the US today.

It has been proven that there were many loyal Toyota customers in America who went over to Lexus.

In Europe, the majority of loyal Toyota customers don't go to Lexus when it's time for a luxury car (according to a report from Auto Motor und Sport).

[cawimmer430]

By the way, I visited my parents today and scooped a glance into this months Auto Motor und Sport. I always look at the sales section report. January - May 2010 Lexus managed to sell 206 cars in Germany. Mercedes 24,000+ (if I remember correctly) followed by BMW and then Audi.

[sportyaccordy]

It has been proven that there were many loyal Toyota customers in America who went over to Lexus.

In Europe, the majority of loyal Toyota customers don't go to Lexus when it's time for a luxury car (according to a report from Auto Motor und Sport).

Toyota's customers weren't loyal because of "history and heritage"... they were loyal for logical reasons. Reliability and reasonable prices.

[MrH]

The luxury car market is built on marketing, exaggeration and bullshit.
That's the only thing the sane, rational people who bother to peek at this pitiful fucking excuse for a discussion anymore can take away from it.

The only difference between a Lexus buyer and a Mercedes-Benz buyer is the variety of bullshit they prefer.

[cawimmer430]

Toyota's customers weren't loyal because of "history and heritage"... they were loyal for logical reasons. Reliability and reasonable prices.

It's the same in Europe.

Except here they don't move up to a Lexus when they're in the market for a luxury car. Some might, but the majority don't. They either stay with Toyota or go for a European premium brand. I'll try finding the article in the AMS magazine it was published in (doubt I still have it though).

[sportyaccordy]

It's the same in Europe.

Except here they don't move up to a Lexus when they're in the market for a luxury car. Some might, but the majority don't. They either stay with Toyota or go for a European premium brand. I'll try finding the article in the AMS magazine it was published in (doubt I still have it though).

I don't doubt that they move up to European brands for luxury cars in Europe at all... my point was that practical considerations are more of a determining factor for Americans over the soft stuff, even in the luxury arenas.

[AltinD]

... with cheappest price possible being the most important of all (the practical considerations)

[nickdrinkwater]

Sure, it was also newer. The engines in the W126 all had their roots in the 1970s and even before that. It's no contest. the 420 and 560's had refined and smooth engines to: the LS400 was just newer and had the more advanced engine and thus won in overall refinement.


Of course it was. Lexus couldn't overcharge because people wouldn't buy a new unknown product for an exorbitant price. Plus, it has often been claimed that the first generations of Lexus were deliberately sold at cheaper "dumping prices" in order to penetrate the market and gain market share.


Design is subjective. The LS400 never looked special to me. It seriously looked like your generic high-end Japanese luxury sedan: bland, boring, zero elegance. It might have been more "futuristically" styled but to me it lacked the gracefulness of the W126 inside and out. It's a personal opinion.


And I see way more W126's here in Germany than I see '89 LS400's. In fact I have not seen an '89 LS400 here in years. What does that mean?

Absolutely nothing.

Seeing more _______ in one area has nothing much to do with durability but rather sales and how long people keep their cars.

So what were Mercedes doing when Lexus was designing the LS400?

Resting on their laurels, I guess.

[Laconian]

So what were Mercedes doing when Lexus was designing the LS400?

Resting on their laurels, I guess. Aging like a fine wine.

[JYODER240]

Been gone for almost two years and Wimmer is still talking about "history and heritage"...see you guys in 2012.

[the Teuton]

Nice of you to stop by, Jordan.

[GoCougs]

Been gone for almost two years and Wimmer is still talking about "history and heritage"...see you guys in 2012.

That's H&H^TM.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Been gone for almost two years and Wimmer is still talking about "history and heritage"...see you guys in 2012.

L8R DUDE

[sportyaccordy]

That's H&H^TM.

Lol

[Onslaught]

Been gone for almost two years and Wimmer is still talking about "history and heritage"...see you guys in 2012.

In 2012 MB will have two more years of history added. Been way too long that I've seen that cool picture of your Z car.

[cawimmer430]

So what were Mercedes doing when Lexus was designing the LS400?

Resting on their laurels, I guess.

Um....no. 

They were readying the next S-Class (W140) and W202 C-Class and creating new concept cars with new technology etc.

[2o6]

Um....no. 

They were readying the next S-Class (W140) and W202 C-Class and creating new concept cars with new technology etc.

Seven years?

[mzziaz]

Seven years?

History and heritage takes time. 

[cawimmer430]

Seven years?

The pattern at Mercedes seems to indicate a development of the next generation model about a year a new launch. Example: The W116 S-Class was launched in 1972 - more or less in 1973 work started on the W126 - and it was released in 1979.

[Submariner]

Been gone for almost two years and Wimmer is still talking about "history and heritage"...see you guys in 2012.

[thewizard16]

Been gone for almost two years and Wimmer is still talking about "history and heritage"...see you guys in 2012.

Consistency is nice in a way, and irritating in others. If I came back and he was driving a Lexus IS and complaining about electrical problems in the E-Class, I'd assume it was the end times.

[ChrisV]

Toyota's customers weren't loyal because of "history and heritage"... they were loyal for logical reasons. Reliability and reasonable prices.

So Toyota's "history" of reliability didn't sway them? the brand's "heritage" of building reliable appliances held no sway?

I daresay that the brand's history and heritage did infact caused loyalty to the brand, and the brand's image causes the buyers to buy. Just because that image isn't one of decades of racing history, or handbuilt elegance, doesn't mean the brand's history and heritage is unimportant. People bought the brand because of what that brand stands for, the same as buyers of Mercedes and BMW do.

You're just confused because the history and heritage that BMW and Mercedes buyers cherish is DIFFERENT than the history and heritage YOU do.

[Onslaught]

So Toyota's "history" of reliability didn't sway them? the brand's "heritage" of building reliable appliances held no sway?

I daresay that the brand's history and heritage did infact caused loyalty to the brand, and the brand's image causes the buyers to buy. Just because that image isn't one of decades of racing history, or handbuilt elegance, doesn't mean the brand's history and heritage is unimportant. People bought the brand because of what that brand stands for, the same as buyers of Mercedes and BMW do.

You're just confused because the history and heritage that BMW and Mercedes buyers cherish is DIFFERENT than the history and heritage YOU do.

I think this is the problem.

[ChrisV]

What Mercedes/BMWs were on people's walls? We can probably count them by hand- E30 M3, W201 2.3-16 EVO, ummm....

And the racing cars, and the other halo cars, Gullwings, etc.













 

Plus in any case the whole idea that postered car % is a meaningful spec is silly. Subjective parameters are obviously key in the car buyer's mind but they damn sure shouldn't be the most important or only considerations.

If you're an appliance buyer, no. But nost true enthsiasts are NOT. They buy on emotion. A car has to move them emotionally to be considered worthy of owning. Subjective feel is MOST important. it's what makes exotic cars and classic cars desirable and collectible. You think a classic Ferrari costs what it does beceu it's at all any good at the job of ferrying pasengers daily? Get a clue. it's about EMOTION.

Say a dude needs a car to seat 5 and be drivable in the snow.... ultimately unless he's a complete moron he's not gonna get some high powered RWD 2 seater

So? Again, you are proposing that cars SHOULD be appliances that practical concerns should be the primary reason to buy anything. I don't think I've done that in 30 years of car buying. Unlike a refrigerator or A/C, I don't say, "I have these requirements. What's Consumer Reports got to say is the best value that fits those requirements?"

Likewise while luxury cars about prestige and all that Americans want a deal.... there's nothing tangible Benz really has over cheaper + competitive alternatives in its cars' respective classes. If all that subjective stuff you guys speak of was really so important Lexus would not be the success it is in the US today.

So, average Americans, we all seem to agree, are morons that can't drive, can't vote, can't live within their budget, have crappy taste in popular music, movies, and TV. But let them buy a car as an appliance and suddenly they are mensa candidates and "savvy consumers." Give me a fucking break.  

[Vinsanity]

This past weekend, when I was helping my parents find something in their garage, I stumbled upon a box for a clothes iron. On the box was printed a short blurb about the company, underneath a heading titled "History & Heritage". It made me think of this thread, and I LOL'd.

[cawimmer430]

Once in a while BMW and Mercedes will drop a TV commercial with a heavy emphasis on their heritage and such. It serves to remind people (not that they need much convincing) of the history of these brands.

This is the latest Mercedes TV commercial aired on German television. It incorporates all the "requirements" that most buyers here expect a luxury brand to have (heritage, innovation etc.). This commercial is so close to the things I have been saying that it makes me wonder if the advertising agency that produced it stopped by this thread and saw the arguments going on in here...   


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbemFDRcyyg


This commercial also introduced Mercedes' new claim: Das Beste oder nichts (the best or nothing) - which was in reality a sentence that Gottlieb Daimler always told his customers he strives for in his products.

[Onslaught]

Toyota has history and heritage.

[sportyaccordy]

And the racing cars, and the other halo cars, Gullwings, etc.

Point noted.

If you're an appliance buyer, no. But nost true enthsiasts are NOT. They buy on emotion. A car has to move them emotionally to be considered worthy of owning. Subjective feel is MOST important. it's what makes exotic cars and classic cars desirable and collectible. You think a classic Ferrari costs what it does beceu it's at all any good at the job of ferrying pasengers daily? Get a clue. it's about EMOTION.

Spare me the fucking HYPERBOLE and CAPITALIZED WORDS... post like a RATIONAL ADULT and not BILL FRIST. The idea that everyone who buys a Benz or BMW is an enthusiast is laughable at best... the overcompensators, the Long Island moms and daughters, they just buy these cars because they fit the standard of the image they have to project. Nothing more, nothing less. If these cars were truly bought by enthusiasts, the bulk of 3 series' sold would be sports packaged stickshift cars- but a quick Autotrader search shows autos outsell stickshifts by 8 to 1.............

So? Again, you are proposing that cars SHOULD be appliances that practical concerns should be the primary reason to buy anything. I don't think I've done that in 30 years of car buying. Unlike a refrigerator or A/C, I don't say, "I have these requirements. What's Consumer Reports got to say is the best value that fits those requirements?"

No, I am not saying that, and I never even implied that. But to say that it's smart or normal for people to throw out all practical considerations in the pursuit of passion is IDIOTIC in my opinion.

So, average Americans, we all seem to agree, are morons that can't drive, can't vote, can't live within their budget, have crappy taste in popular music, movies, and TV. But let them buy a car as an appliance and suddenly they are mensa candidates and "savvy consumers." Give me a fucking break. 

I never said this either... I am sensing a pattern here

What makes an equally equipped and cheaper Lexus inferior to a Benz? In my eyes, nothing- in your eyes, the badge, the heritage and all that other bullshit. That's the only reason they can charge that premium. To me, that's fucking idiotic.

Chris, do yourself a favor and take a break from the boards... you're hyperbolic, you're using strawmen arguments and you're frothing at the mouth. I have the right to my OPINION just as you have the right to yours- deal with it. Nobody has said anything here to change my mind. I'm done here.

[cawimmer430]

If these cars were truly bought by enthusiasts, the bulk of 3 series' sold would be sports packaged stickshift cars- but a quick Autotrader search shows autos outsell stickshifts by 8 to 1.............

Not all enthusiasts want a manual transmission.

[HurricaneSteve]

Personally I think it's a bit rude to refer to cars that don't target the enthusiast crowd as appliances. An appliance is a household device that sits there and does one task. Just because a typical Camry owner doesn't thrash their car at every stoplight doesn't mean their car is an appliance.