An old but interesting article on "history and heritage" and why it works in EU

[sportyaccordy]

Wim, just say you're blindly loyal to MB and leave it at that

[Onslaught]

A stripper luxury car is nothing to be ashamed about here.

There's no such thing. It's just a car then and an overpriced one at that.

[GoCougs]

Lexus has Toyota. Toyota infuses cash into Lexus. BMW and Mercedes don't have a mainstream brand that can supply it with cash based on massive sales. Lexus was created for the US. They were CREATED specifically for the US. Nothing to it. Boring. Just get a couple of Toyota's and slap a Lexus badge on them. Raise the price, add leather, move the steering wheel on the left and you have a Lexus. In this fashion, Lexus can afford to remain "upscale".

The history of Mercedes and BMW is completely different from Lexus. Those German brands had to survive in their day and they did it by offering lesser models. This was true prior to World War I and post World War II. And they did it under their BMW and MB names. And has it harmed their reputation? No. Outside of the US luxury cars with smaller engines and less features are quite common.

And BMW and MB have history and heritage on their side. This has defined them as impressive automakers. Lexus might make good cars, but their brand history is boring and dull and only confined to the US for the most part.

A stripper luxury car is nothing to be ashamed about here. Most Europeans want things in their car that they actually will use. The most common option people order in their luxury car here is probably the automatic transmission. Most European premium cars come well-equipped these days with the basic features any normal human being requires: A/C, radio and even electric windows now. And we don't make a big fuzz about manual seats...

And Lexus has just entered the 1-Series market with their new CT200h.

To use Audi/MB/BMW overseas sales as some sort of measuring stick of the superior "global" appeal WRT to Lexus is not logical. A good portion of Audi/MB/BMW overseas sales are non-luxury. My point in mentioning this was not to criticize but to state that there is no such thing as a "stripper" luxury car. (Also, the CT200h's path to market is because it's a hybrid.)

That there is "history" and "heritage" does not make the cars better, it only makes people who buy them feel better. This lulled the German marques into complacency and as a result the 1990 LS400 came along and changed the luxury game forever, and now not only is Lexus the top selling luxury marque in the world's largest auto market, to this day the Germans still haven't caught up to Lexus reliability.

[omicron]

So, basically, Europeans are idiots.

I like this.

[CALL_911]

So, basically, Europeans are idiots.

The more Wimmer argues, the more I'm certain that's his point.

[cawimmer430]

Apparently Europeans don't understand what a "luxury" car is.  A "Luxury car" is supposed to have a lot of features, many of which you may not ever even use.  A "luxury car" that is stripped of most of its amenities is no longer a luxury car, it's a regular car with a luxury car's badge and price premium.

Europeans have a different view of what a luxury car is. First and foremost, the badge defines a luxury brand. Just because some features aren't present in a premium car doesn't make it a normal car, especially if the person buying it doesn't want certain features, which is often the case. Europeans tend to want features in their cars that they will actually use. If they want a certain feature they can order it.

I've never understood how Americans want all this random crap in their luxury car that they will never possibly use.

[cawimmer430]

Wim, just say you're blindly loyal to MB and leave it at that

Sure... 

[cawimmer430]

There's no such thing. It's just a car then and an overpriced one at that.

Really? European luxury cars have always come with the most basic of features for decades. Don't forget that people also bought them because they stand for something.

What really has happened is that mainstream cars have upped the bar by offering more features and thus providing the impression that there is no market for luxury cars when you can have a mainstream car for less and get more. It's the same in the US too.

[cawimmer430]

To use Audi/MB/BMW overseas sales as some sort of measuring stick of the superior "global" appeal WRT to Lexus is not logical. A good portion of Audi/MB/BMW overseas sales are non-luxury. My point in mentioning this was not to criticize but to state that there is no such thing as a "stripper" luxury car. (Also, the CT200h's path to market is because it's a hybrid.)

I've used the global sales part to also indicate that brands like Audi/BMW/MB have global appeal. Lexus is still very much designed for the American market - and their brand lacks the heritage aspect.

Also, your typical Audi/BMW/MB sold overseas isn't as "poorly equipped" as a European version. Extreme stripper versions pf these cars are pretty much only present in Europe. Pretty much cars like the A3, 1er and A/B-Class can be had as stripper versions overseas. Beginning with the A4, C-Class and 3er the standard features are more up to date.

That there is "history" and "heritage" does not make the cars better, it only makes people who buy them feel better.

That's what I have been saying all along.

And for some people this makes a particular marque the "better choice"  for them as it fulfills their emotional (etc.) needs.

This lulled the German marques into complacency and as a result the 1990 LS400 came along and changed the luxury game forever, and now not only is Lexus the top selling luxury marque in the world's largest auto market, to this day the Germans still haven't caught up to Lexus reliability.

Lexus reliability... overrated. I'm so sick of reading Lexus forums because all they talk about is reliability. Reliability. Reliability.

Hell, those morons wouldn't even want to own a classic car because of reliability.

They don't want to drive a Porsche or Ferrari because of "high maintenance" and yet the LF-A is "low maintenance". Give me a break. High performance cars are expensive to maintain. Period.

In my circle of friends and family I know many folks with European cars and the type of "extreme problems" Toyota Reports, excuse me, Consumer Reports keeps bitching about don't come up. I can't relate to the bitching about European car reliability that seems to come from Americans all the time.

[CALL_911]

You know, Wimmer, reliability really does matter. I was (a few months ago) in the same boat as you, talking about how German reliability is great and just as good as Japanese reliability.

Mechanically, fine. The Germans have their mechanicals down. Electricals? LOL. My dad's 5er has been in the shop more times than I can count because they can't seem to fucking get the electrics right. It's an excellent car, but the fact that my dad's SERIOUSLY considering not buying German next time around (he probably will anyway) is indicative of how the reliability thing has some merit to it.

[2o6]

I understand why someone would buy a stripper luxury car. An E-class has better materials quality, refinement, fit and finish and other details over a Camry.

[Onslaught]

I've never understood how Americans want all this random crap in their luxury car that they will never possibly use.

I can't think of anything in these cars I wouldn't use. The only thing I wouldn't use that comes to mind is that Lexus parallel parking thing. Other than that the more the better.

[2o6]

European idea of luxury and the American idea of luxury is totally different, it's in everything they do, not just the car market.



A good example is food.

[Tave]

I understand why someone would buy a stripper luxury car. An E-class has better materials quality, refinement, fit and finish and other details over a Camry.

A stripper E-Class isn't just a regular E-Class without navigation and all the other electric goodies. It uses cheaper materials all around: cloth seats, hard plastics, etc...

It's a fairly pedestrian vehicle.

[cawimmer430]

A stripper E-Class isn't just a regular E-Class without navigation and all the other electric goodies. It uses cheaper materials all around: cloth seats, hard plastics, etc...

There's no difference in interior material quality at all.

The base E-Class trim, Classic, just has cloth seats (which you can also get on an E350 here), but the dashboard materials are the same as those found in more expensive trim and E-Class models. A base E200 CDI Classic has the same interior materials and quality as an E550 Avantgarde or E63 AMG. The only detail about the cabin material that can be influenced by the buyer is the choice of seat covering: cloth is standard, MB-Tex is optional as is real leather (and the color of this material). The type of wood and color used can also be specified.

Also, hard plastics don't automatically equate to cheap. If you think the E-Class is the only car that uses hard plastics in the cabin, guess again.

[Onslaught]

European idea of luxury and the American idea of luxury is totally different, it's in everything they do, not just the car market.



A good example is food.

Not all Americans plop themselves down to fast food.

[cawimmer430]

You know, Wimmer, reliability really does matter. I was (a few months ago) in the same boat as you, talking about how German reliability is great and just as good as Japanese reliability.

Mechanically, fine. The Germans have their mechanicals down. Electricals? LOL. My dad's 5er has been in the shop more times than I can count because they can't seem to fucking get the electrics right. It's an excellent car, but the fact that my dad's SERIOUSLY considering not buying German next time around (he probably will anyway) is indicative of how the reliability thing has some merit to it.

If European cars are so "unreliable from an electronic" point of view, I have a hard time believing people would continue to buy them. The fact of the matter is that our cars are overall reliable and people are happy with them. It's widely acknowledged here that Japanese cars, especially Toyota and Honda, are very reliable, but that doesn't mean similar offerings from VW, Citroen etc. aren't.

Every brand has lemons. There are people who have problems with their LS460 and there are people who've never had a problem with their first generation Mercedes M-Class. Speaking from personal experience and the experiences of friends, I cannot relate to this "extreme unreliability" of European cars. The worst case scenario I ever experienced was a neighbor from down the street. He had a Mercedes E270 CDI which constantly gave him trouble. He was in the shop once a week. Some electronic glitch. There came a time when he demanded that they fix it or he'll dump it. After the car was fully inspected, the engineers obviously replaced something and since then the car has been faultless according to him. I should know, he lives down the street from me in M?hldorf.

I also think that this "European unreliability" has been greatly exaggerated and overhyped by the Internet - to the point where it has become something of a myth. European cars might not have the bulletproof reliability of a Toyota or Honda, but they certainly aren't as unreliable as they're made out to be. People tend to exaggerate - it's in our nature. And we tend to exaggerate negatives. When someone's cup holder breaks in his $70,000 car he'll make it sound as if the car is a POS.


Lastly, and this doesn't apply to your father, but mostly the Internet bloggers in other car forums who really know Jack shit have also been responsible for spreading crap. For example, I've been browsing the web and reading up on comments regarding the Mercedes-Nissan/Renault deal. Overwhelmingly, and as expected, the reaction from Nissan/Infiniti fans has been very negative. Immediately I'm reading comments about how "unreliable Mercedes engines are" or "how Mercedes will rape Nissan/Infinit just like they raped Chrysler" or how "Infiniti reliability just went down the toilet". Let's be honest here: these are incredibly stupid responses. And they're abundant on most Infiniti forums I've visited and other non-Infiniti forums or autoblog sites. I think these people are misinformed, biased or just plain stupid. You'll find out soon why.

Apparently Nissan/Infiniti fans also dislike Renault. Yep, you guessed it. French cars = unreliable crap. They wouldn't touch anything from Renault. I'm surprised I have not read any responses about "Renault dragging down Nissan/Infiniti reliability" etc. from them. Morons.

Here's the interesting part - the part where I am laughing my ass off at these stupid fuckers. Infiniti just released an FX30d (diesel) for Europe. Those guys are all over it citing "Infiniti's brilliance and competitiveness with European diesels" etc. Basically, the fanboy crap you'd expect.

Here's the good part. That engine is 100% Renault. It's called the V9X and has been used in the top-of-the-line Laguna 3.0 dCi since around 2008. Essentially, these clueless cunts are praising a French-designed and French-engineered engine without knowing it. Hilarious. These same people are bitching about the Infiniti-Mercedes deal, slamming MB engines as POS and here they are praising a Renault engine, which they previously lambasted in other posts. Utterly hilarious. 



Look, I am not denying that Japanese automotive reliability is generally in the lead, but it's also terribly overrated. And I am not denying that some European brands have had a bad spell in the last decade. But if you look at the current consumer feedback (not from Toyota Reports), you can see that many newer owners of European cars have reported high levels of reliability. In particular the new Mercedes W204 C-Class has done very well in the US and the UK in reliability surveys - as has the current W221 S-Class. I think this should tell you something.

[cawimmer430]

I can't think of anything in these cars I wouldn't use. The only thing I wouldn't use that comes to mind is that Lexus parallel parking thing. Other than that the more the better.

In my parents 2002 Mercedes E320 the only things my dad ordered were:

-APS-50 navigation system
-sunroof
-cloth-MB-Tex seat combination
-3-way memory seat control for driver seat only (front passenger seat is manual)
-4-Zone-Climate-Control

That's it.

All I use when I drive the car are the APS-50 navigation system if I have to. That's it. I hate sunroof's with passion, I don't care if the seats are 100% cloth or 100% leather and I have no problem with the current setup of 50-50 cloth/MB-Tex. The 4-Zone-C-C is a gimmick and the 3--way memory seat control also was wasted money since only my dad drives the car 90% of the time now. I wouldn't have had a problem with the seats if they were manual to instead of electric.

This is where I come from. So I can't relate to how anyone in the US or other markets would want a fully loaded car when most likely they'll never use a great majority of the features. It seems like extra weight to me.

[2o6]

Not all Americans plop themselves down to fast food.

But most do, and it's reflected in the "Value" mentality that many Americans have.

[93JC]

This is where I come from. So I can't relate to how anyone in the US or other markets would want a fully loaded car when most likely they'll never use a great majority of the features. It seems like extra weight to me.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/luxury

lux?u?ry

a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity

[2o6]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/luxury

lux?u?ry

a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity

Luxury is a relative term.


The general gist of Europe is that they'd rather pay more for a better feeling, but smaller car, than one that is larger, cheaper, and faster but with worse materials.

[Onslaught]

I hate sunroof's with passion,

This is where I come from. So I can't relate to how anyone in the US or other markets would want a fully loaded car when most likely they'll never use a great majority of the features. It seems like extra weight to me.

You see, we've established you're nuts. Only a crazy person hates sunroof's.

And I'd use every feature on a nice car if I had one. Even my cheap car has bluetooth phone, satellite radio and a transmitter for driveway gate and garage door. I use them every time I'm in the car. I would like GPS too but couldn't get it.

[Onslaught]

Luxury is a relative term.


The general gist of Europe is that they'd rather pay more for a better feeling, but smaller car, than one that is larger, cheaper, and faster but with worse materials.

Most of the "better feeling" materials I've seen from my friends German cars don't hold up all that well after 10 years or so. I'd rather have the "cheap" stuff that will look the same forever.

[93JC]

Luxury is a relative term.


The general gist of Europe is that they'd rather pay more for a better feeling, but smaller car, than one that is larger, cheaper, and faster but with worse materials.

No, luxury is an absolute term.

e.g. Expensive restaurants serve food. It is luxurious by virtue of being expensive. McDonald's serves food. It is inexpensive, therefore it is not luxurious.

A "better feeling" car is relative. Larger, cheaper and faster are absolute. "Worse materials" is relative.

[AltinD]

I can't think of anything in these cars I wouldn't use. The only thing I wouldn't use that comes to mind is that Lexus parallel parking thing. Other than that the more the better.

No, you wouldn't use it because IT DOES NOT WORK!

BTW, I have a paralel parking option in my Passat that is way much easier to use and it DOES work flawlesly, unlike the one in the Lexus. Oh, and it was first introduced in 2007 (or late 2006) in a Golf based minivan.

[AltinD]

The main disparity in "global" sales is that Lexus is a luxury automaker everywhere. Audi, BMW and M-B? Not so much.

Lexus knows exactly what it is doing by remaining exclusively a luxury automaker; Lexus is just happy not being a sales leader/contender overseas because it does not have competition for the A3/1er/A-class or a stripper A6/5er/E-class.

Don't be ridiculous, the only market where Lexus does sell is USA. Nowhere else in the planet they are taken seriously ... not even in Japan.

[GoCougs]

I've used the global sales part to also indicate that brands like Audi/BMW/MB have global appeal. Lexus is still very much designed for the American market - and their brand lacks the heritage aspect.

Also, your typical Audi/BMW/MB sold overseas isn't as "poorly equipped" as a European version. Extreme stripper versions pf these cars are pretty much only present in Europe. Pretty much cars like the A3, 1er and A/B-Class can be had as stripper versions overseas. Beginning with the A4, C-Class and 3er the standard features are more up to date.



That's what I have been saying all along.

And for some people this makes a particular marque the "better choice"  for them as it fulfills their emotional (etc.) needs.




Lexus reliability... overrated. I'm so sick of reading Lexus forums because all they talk about is reliability. Reliability. Reliability.

Hell, those morons wouldn't even want to own a classic car because of reliability.

They don't want to drive a Porsche or Ferrari because of "high maintenance" and yet the LF-A is "low maintenance". Give me a break. High performance cars are expensive to maintain. Period.

In my circle of friends and family I know many folks with European cars and the type of "extreme problems" Toyota Reports, excuse me, Consumer Reports keeps bitching about don't come up. I can't relate to the bitching about European car reliability that seems to come from Americans all the time.

We don't care about "heritage" and "history" as it's an extremely poor reason to buy a car. Unique to pretty much all other auto markets, mostly we want cars with a track record of reliability, resale, quality and value. We don't care where they come from as long as it is a good car.

That Lexus products meet with little/limited success overseas isn't a dig on the product. If you're Toyota in the late '80s would you choose to try to break into small(er), nationalistic markets or the largest, richest, and most a-nationalistic market?

I think you've got an uphill battle in convincing others, especially those with experience with both cars, that the Germans on average make a more reliable car.

[CALL_911]

+1 to Cougs.

Even though I tend to like German cars a lot more than their Japanese counterparts, I can't say that the Germans are up to snuff, in terms of reliability.

[Minpin]

Around here, Lexus is king. It's fairly disgusting. Our neighbors just got a new LX. It's positively hideous.


But there is a reason why Lexus is number 1, and it is all the reasons already listed. Really no complicated answer needed.

[CALL_911]

Around here, Lexus is king. It's fairly disgusting. Our neighbors just got a new LX. It's positively hideous.


But there is a reason why Lexus is number 1, and it is all the reasons already listed. Really no complicated answer needed.