An old but interesting article on "history and heritage" and why it works in EU

Started by cawimmer430, May 06, 2010, 03:03:32 PM

cawimmer430

Quote from: SVT666 on May 10, 2010, 11:48:03 PM
I want to know how long a luxury manufacturer has to be around before they have history and heritage.

Now, history and heritage do matter.  Some people buy $5000 watches, $500 bottles of wine, $500 sunglasses, $2500 suits, etc.  Why?  Because of the history and heritage of the product.  Nobody would pay that for a brand name they had never heard of before or for a brand name that is known for average products.


It's very simple.

Look at the history of Mercedes and BMW and other European (even American) luxury brands. And then compare it to Lexus. Using Lexus in the same sentence with BMW and Mercedes is painful to hear in terms of "brand prestige" and "achievements". Especially since all Lexus really did was shake up the US market and is still the strongest luxury brand in that market. Globally Lexus is unnoticed and their lack of identifiable brand prestige hurts them in markets where this matters - like Europe.
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cawimmer430

Quote from: GoCougs on May 11, 2010, 10:07:35 AM
Toyota has the "history" and "heritage" of becoming the world's most successful automaker in addition to literally changing the world of manufacturing with its Toyota Production System (i.e., lean manufacturing). This trumps anything MB, Audi or BMW has ever done IMO.

Bullshit.

Toyota makes affordable cars. No shit they'll sell in masses, especially since they have a reputation for quality. That's the reason people buy Toyota's. Not for design, not for passion, not for fun.

I agree that the JIT production and manufacturing techniques Toyota has pioneered are important, but we are talking about Lexus here from a brand prestige and heritage point of view. Compared to Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, hell even Citroen or Fiat, Lexus is nothing.

And if you seriously think MB, Audi or BMW have never done anything worthwhile you seriously need to visit their museums or read some automotive history books. After doing that, please visit the Lexus museum. Oh wait...
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cawimmer430

Quote from: nickdrinkwater on May 11, 2010, 10:33:28 AM
Before I read this thread properly can I just make sure people understand that Wimmer isn't speaking for me when he talks about 'Europeans think this, that and the other'.  No doubt there will be some sweeping generalisations based on these fictional 'Europeans'.

Actually I was specifically referring to the Drinkwater family, your neighbors the Smith's and the Miller's when I talked about "Europeans"...
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GoCougs

Quote from: cawimmer430 on May 11, 2010, 11:12:52 AM
Bullshit.

Toyota makes affordable cars. No shit they'll sell in masses, especially since they have a reputation for quality. That's the reason people buy Toyota's. Not for design, not for passion, not for fun.

I agree that the JIT production and manufacturing techniques Toyota has pioneered are important, but we are talking about Lexus here from a brand prestige and heritage point of view. Compared to Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, hell even Citroen or Fiat, Lexus is nothing.

And if you seriously think MB, Audi or BMW have never done anything worthwhile you seriously need to visit their museums or read some automotive history books. After doing that, please visit the Lexus museum. Oh wait...

But being the most successful manufacturer, let alone automaker, EVER, isn't worth a lot of "history" and "heritage"? I think that it is. Granted Toyota didn't do so with cars like the E-type or 300SL but Toyota changed the landscape of manufacturing and of making cars at a level other luxury marques can only dream of.

Didn't say the Germany luxury marques hadn't done anything worthwhile, I merely stated that Toyota has had a larger impact than MB, BMW and Audi.

GoCougs

Quote from: cawimmer430 on May 11, 2010, 11:09:46 AM

It's very simple.

Look at the history of Mercedes and BMW and other European (even American) luxury brands. And then compare it to Lexus. Using Lexus in the same sentence with BMW and Mercedes is painful to hear in terms of "brand prestige" and "achievements". Especially since all Lexus really did was shake up the US market and is still the strongest luxury brand in that market. Globally Lexus is unnoticed and their lack of identifiable brand prestige hurts them in markets where this matters - like Europe.

Shouldn't be painful - after all, other luxury marques still can't build product as reliable as Lexus.

A market that relies on "brand prestige" is a market relying on non-capitalist principals. Not sure if I'd brag about that plus I doubt the European market is as nationalistic as you imply.

Laconian

Also, consider that Toyota's US product portfolio had been restricted  for decades by size tariffs. What could Toyota have been capable of, had they not been forced by government into only making smaller cars?
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cawimmer430

Quote from: GoCougs on May 11, 2010, 12:05:05 PM
But being the most successful manufacturer, let alone automaker, EVER, isn't worth a lot of "history" and "heritage"? I think that it is. Granted Toyota didn't do so with cars like the E-type or 300SL but Toyota changed the landscape of manufacturing and of making cars at a level other luxury marques can only dream of.

The German brands didn't get to where they are by building poor quality cars. They built high quality cars for decades, still do. Only in the mid 1990s did they seem to take a hit, MB in particular. Thankfully they're coming back.

And I still cannot relate to the "unreliable European cars" myth since even nicely spec'd models I know people own have been very reliable. I've never experienced any major problems with European cars. I've never known anyone who hated his European car so much (except on Internet forums - where anyone can be anyone and have anything) because it was "so unreliable".




Quote from: GoCougs on May 11, 2010, 12:05:05 PMDidn't say the Germany luxury marques hadn't done anything worthwhile, I merely stated that Toyota has had a larger impact than MB, BMW and Audi.

The only major impact Toyota has achieved IMO was bringing reliable and affordable cars to the masses as well as their production methods. That's about it.
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cawimmer430

Quote from: GoCougs on May 11, 2010, 12:16:55 PM
Shouldn't be painful - after all, other luxury marques still can't build product as reliable as Lexus.

Last JD Powers 2009 reported this if I remember correctly:

Average Lexus: 4.5 problems per year
Average Mercedes: 5.5 problems per year


Wow, what a difference. The Benz is sure very unreliable!  :tounge:

I think people tend to bitch about "poor European long-term reliability", but speaking from experience with our cars: no major problems. Remember the W211 E-Class? Apparently it tended to have electrical glitches in the US. Our family has a 2002 E320, one of the first models made, and it's been very reliable. It's an 8 year-old car now and it still feels as solid and well-made as the day we picked it up. Again, I know people who have kept their European cars (German, French, even Italian) for 10 years+ and have no major problems with them.


Quote from: GoCougs on May 11, 2010, 12:16:55 PMA market that relies on "brand prestige" is a market relying on non-capitalist principals. Not sure if I'd brag about that plus I doubt the European market is as nationalistic as you imply.

I never directly stated that the European market is very nationalistic. There are Europeans that also find Lexus appealing - not many though.

The underlying factor is that when you're spending money on a premium car here, you want the badge to mean something. The impression I get in the US is that a premium car should be as fuel-inefficient as possible, as fast as possible, have the biggest and baddest engine on the block and of course be fully loaded to the max ( :devil:). Clearly these are cultural differences in terms of expectations and perceptions of what a luxury car is all about. Here, the badge defines the brand. The Lexus badge means nothing here.
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GoCougs

German brands got to where they are in Germany just as Japanese brands got to where they are in Japan: protectionist trade policies.

In the US luxury cars are about displaying wealth; the average US luxury car buyer couldn't discern between a loaded Camcrod and a 5er or A6 if but for the badges.

"Lexus builds a more reliable product than X" does not equate to, "X makes an unreliable product."

But yes, in my more-than-anecdotal experience, German cars still have issues with reliability, especially electronics. 

2o6

Wimmer, what about Cadillac?


For all intents and purposes, the CTS and SRX are just as good as an E-class or GLK, and Cadillac has just as much "History" and "Heritage". Why can't they seem to do well in Europe?



It's blind bias in the home market, and nothing more.

Onslaught

When strippers use your brand name as their stage name you're prestigious. Both Mercedes and Lexus are prestigious then. Sorry BMW.

The more I hear people from Europe talk about their cars then more I'm sure I'll never own one.

MX793

Quote from: Onslaught on May 11, 2010, 03:17:27 PM
When strippers use your brand name as their stage name you're prestigious. Both Mercedes and Lexus are prestigious then. Sorry BMW.

The more I hear people from Europe talk about their cars then more I'm sure I'll never own one.

But Mercedes was a woman's name long before it was ever the name of a car (the brand was named after the daughter of a diplomat and motorsport enthusiast who raced early Daimlers).
Needs more Jiggawatts

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Submariner

Quote from: GoCougs on May 11, 2010, 10:07:35 AM
Toyota has the "history" and "heritage" of becoming the world's most successful automaker in addition to literally changing the world of manufacturing with its Toyota Production System (i.e., lean manufacturing). This trumps anything MB, Audi or BMW has ever done IMO.

Err...no...but opinions are always welcome.  :ohyeah:

Besides, even if Toyota could top Mercedes's thousands of vehicular innovations over the years, I don't think they can top Ford and their marriage of the assembly line and the production of the car in the first place...;
2010 G-550  //  2019 GLS-550

Onslaught

Quote from: MX793 on May 11, 2010, 03:53:58 PM
But Mercedes was a woman's name long before it was ever the name of a car (the brand was named after the daughter of a diplomat and motorsport enthusiast who raced early Daimlers).
Not just any woman can use that name now. It takes a special one.

MX793

Quote from: Onslaught on May 11, 2010, 04:09:52 PM
Not just any woman can use that name now. It takes a special one.

It's an old Spanish name rooted in Latin, so I suspect it's generally more popular in Europe as a "regular name" than it ever was in America (beyond the stage name for exotic dancers).
Needs more Jiggawatts

2016 Ford Mustang GTPP / 2011 Toyota Rav4 Base AWD / 2014 Kawasaki Ninja 1000 ABS
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SVT666

I'm with Wimmer on htis.  I think it's a stupid reason to buy anything, but I agree with him that it matters.

Jon?

Quote from: SVT666 on May 11, 2010, 06:42:02 PM
I'm with Wimmer on htis.  I think it's a stupid reason to buy anything, but I agree with him that it matters.

True.  I could have bought a 300M to get a rwd American car.  The fact that the CTS was a Cadillac did influence me.

Current Rides: 2011 VW Golf TDi, 2008 Pontiac Vibe

AltinD

Quote from: GoCougs on May 11, 2010, 10:07:35 AM
Toyota has the "history" and "heritage" of becoming the world's most successful automaker in addition to literally changing the world of manufacturing with its Toyota Production System (i.e., lean manufacturing). This trumps anything MB, Audi or BMW has ever done IMO.

How about: Inventing the automobile?

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cawimmer430

Quote from: GoCougs on May 11, 2010, 02:02:30 PM
German brands got to where they are in Germany just as Japanese brands got to where they are in Japan: protectionist trade policies.

That's not what I am talking about. I'm talking about the early history of the German brands (and I guess Japanese brands). In order to be a successful global brand a company must first be successful in their home market. Check @ Mercedes, Toyota, BMW etc.

Lexus? Where is the home market of Lexus? Japan or the US? It's a hard question to answer. Lexus was created for a specific market for a specific purpose. In the early days of the automobile the thing that drove the European brands forward was a passion for innovation, motorsport and style and the resulting history this wrote is where their brand prestige (and appeal) came from (as well their reputation for quality).
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cawimmer430

Quote from: 2o6 on May 11, 2010, 03:13:53 PM
Wimmer, what about Cadillac?

For all intents and purposes, the CTS and SRX are just as good as an E-class or GLK, and Cadillac has just as much "History" and "Heritage". Why can't they seem to do well in Europe?


Cadillac is a very prestigious brand. As far as I am aware, we like Cadillacs - the old ones. The new ones just don't appeal to us, especially since we can get more trim, engine etc. choices in our European luxury cars. American style luxury just doesn't work well here. Cadillac and Lexus need to ADAPT to our market, not expect us to adapt to them.


They don't do well in Europe because:

-inefficient and overpowered engines (no weaker engine choices)
-extremely thin dealer network distribution (or non-existent in certain parts of Germany/Europe)
-uncompetitive model lineup (BLS, CTS and Escalade: no SRX or XLR anymore)


Ask a European which brand they'd rate higher (Cadillac or Lexus) and they'd probably put Cadillac way above Lexus. Still doesn't mean they'd buy one.





[/quote]
Quote from: 2o6 on May 11, 2010, 03:13:53 PMIt's blind bias in the home market, and nothing more.

:facepalm:

Cadillac doesn't sell any efficient engines here, except in the BLS (and we all know the appeal that car has is ZERO). How does Cadillac want to do business here when they only sell the BLS, CTS and the Escalade? What's the point of an Escalade here? With that thing you'll be at the gas station 24/7. A Q7 TDI or GL320 CDI is a far more appealing choice.

The truth is that Audi, BMW and Mercedes have a very strong brand name. They also make appealing cars and offer consumers a wide variety of choices (engines, trims etc.). Cadillac and Lexus are at the bottom of the luxury considerations in Europe, mostly because of uncompetitive models and in the case of Lexus, the "rebadged Toyota reputation/lack of brand heritage".


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GoCougs

Quote from: Submariner on May 11, 2010, 04:08:41 PM
Err...no...but opinions are always welcome.  :ohyeah:

Besides, even if Toyota could top Mercedes's thousands of vehicular innovations over the years, I don't think they can top Ford and their marriage of the assembly line and the production of the car in the first place...;

Quote from: AltinD on May 12, 2010, 06:21:38 AM
How about: Inventing the automobile?

Quote from: cawimmer430 on May 12, 2010, 08:59:33 AM
That's not what I am talking about. I'm talking about the early history of the German brands (and I guess Japanese brands). In order to be a successful global brand a company must first be successful in their home market. Check @ Mercedes, Toyota, BMW etc.

Lexus? Where is the home market of Lexus? Japan or the US? It's a hard question to answer. Lexus was created for a specific market for a specific purpose. In the early days of the automobile the thing that drove the European brands forward was a passion for innovation, motorsport and style and the resulting history this wrote is where their brand prestige (and appeal) came from (as well their reputation for quality).

Kinda lost on that ? how does a particular model or innovation decades ago make one feel better about buying a E350 today? I get that people have all sorts of subjective reasons for buying cars but that doesn?t make the cars better. In fact when manufacturers play to such a notion as ?history? or ?heritage? it leaves them open to getting bested; as Lexus and the Japanese did as a whole to the US market, simply outgunning BMW and MB and the whole of Detroit.

And I don?t think there is any question as to Lexus?s origins - only relatively recently has Lexus sold cars in Japan.

cawimmer430

Quote from: GoCougs on May 12, 2010, 09:31:36 AM
Kinda lost on that ? how does a particular model or innovation decades ago make one feel better about buying a E350 today? I get that people have all sorts of subjective reasons for buying cars but that doesn?t make the cars better. In fact when manufacturers play to such a notion as ?history? or ?heritage? it leaves them open to getting bested; as Lexus and the Japanese did as a whole to the US market, simply outgunning BMW and MB and the whole of Detroit.

And I don?t think there is any question as to Lexus?s origins - only relatively recently has Lexus sold cars in Japan.



Well, the only thing that brand prestige (history and heritage) do is create an emotional connection to some people. It's all about the feel good factor. Somebody who decides to go for an E350 instead of GS350 may have felt that he's getting something better because of the badge and what it stands for etc. The bottom line is that brand prestige, which is also subjective, is something that stirs emotions. In Europe brand prestige is basically the sum of all achievements, the reputation etc. of a brand. People here can relate to Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Citroen, Lancia, Alfa Romeo etc.

They cannot relate to Lexus. In a market where the history and achievements as well as reputation of MB, BMW etc. are well known, Lexus is a nobody. A nobody that shows up with overpowered and inefficient engines and asks for high prices for cars that look Toyotaesque. Why should someone pay money for a Lexus when they can get a better deal at Mercedes or BMW? Do you get what I am saying?  ;)

Brand heritage is important in Europe, especially for a luxury brand. In fact, it is virtually a requirement for a luxury brand. An automotive brand with lots of history and heritage lets people know why they cost so much or why the brand is so special etc.
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GoCougs

Quote from: cawimmer430 on May 12, 2010, 09:42:41 AM

Well, the only thing that brand prestige (history and heritage) do is create an emotional connection to some people. It's all about the feel good factor. Somebody who decides to go for an E350 instead of GS350 may have felt that he's getting something better because of the badge and what it stands for etc. The bottom line is that brand prestige, which is also subjective, is something that stirs emotions. In Europe brand prestige is basically the sum of all achievements, the reputation etc. of a brand. People here can relate to Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Citroen, Lancia, Alfa Romeo etc.

They cannot relate to Lexus. In a market where the history and achievements as well as reputation of MB, BMW etc. are well known, Lexus is a nobody. A nobody that shows up with overpowered and inefficient engines and asks for high prices for cars that look Toyotaesque. Why should someone pay money for a Lexus when they can get a better deal at Mercedes or BMW? Do you get what I am saying?  ;)

Brand heritage is important in Europe, especially for a luxury brand. In fact, it is virtually a requirement for a luxury brand. An automotive brand with lots of history and heritage lets people know why they cost so much or why the brand is so special etc.

Like I keep saying, as a result of the Europe's nationalistic market environment Lexus doesn't care all that much about Europe. As a result of the a-nationalism Lexus focused on the US market, dominated it within 10 years, and has dominated it for the 10 years since. It was the superior business move by Toyota. That their cars don?t do well in Europe isn?t a dig against the ?history? or ?heritage? of Toyota or Lexus. If anything it?s a dig against the European market and its trade and environmental policies.

cawimmer430

Quote from: GoCougs on May 12, 2010, 09:59:03 AM
Like I keep saying, as a result of the Europe's nationalistic market environment Lexus doesn't care all that much about Europe. As a result of the a-nationalism Lexus focused on the US market, dominated it within 10 years, and has dominated it for the 10 years since. It was the superior business move by Toyota. That their cars don?t do well in Europe isn?t a dig against the ?history? or ?heritage? of Toyota or Lexus. If anything it?s a dig against the European market and its trade and environmental policies.


The environmental policies here are tolerable. Someone who wants an S500 can buy an S500 - he just needs to pay higher taxes and fuel bills. Lexus only offers overpowered engines here with the exception of the uncompetitive IS220d and the even more uncompetitive IS250. The new RX450h is decent in gas mileage but for an SUV here a diesel is a must.

And speaking of the environment, why do Americans all of a sudden demand gas mileage but still need a 4875495484594854509540-hp V6 and 0-60 in 5 seconds Camry for a shopping trip down the block?  :huh:
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Onslaught

Quote from: cawimmer430 on May 12, 2010, 10:03:27 AM



And speaking of the environment, why do Americans all of a sudden demand gas mileage but still need a 4875495484594854509540-hp V6 and 0-60 in 5 seconds Camry for a shopping trip down the block?  :huh:
Most Americans don't buy the V6 ones. And don't act like MB isn't power crazy too.

SVT666

Exactly.  His beloved M-B puts some of the most powerful V8 engines ever made in their AMG cars.

2o6

For starters, I'm willing to bet that the majority of engines in those large and midsize sedans are four-cylinders. Hyundai doesn't even have a V6 option on the Sonata and Optima.


Two, these large engines are surprisingly thrifty, many of them can get 30MPG on the freeway.

cawimmer430

Quote from: Onslaught on May 12, 2010, 04:01:29 PM
Most Americans don't buy the V6 ones. And don't act like MB isn't power crazy too.

The thing with MB is that they offer a wide range of engine variants in a model to suit a variety of buyers. These motors range from sufficient to overpowered.

This isn't the case in the US though. In Europe a buyer can select the model that suits him/her the best.


For example, the European E-Class lineup:

DIESEL
E200 CDI
E220 CDI
E250 CDI
E300 CDI
E350 CDI
E350 BlueTEC
E350 CDI BlueTEC 4Matic

GASOLINE
E200 CGI
E250 CGI
E350 CGI
E350 4Matic
E500
E500 4Matic
E63 AMG


And here's the Lexus GS lineup:

GS300
GS460
GS450h
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2o6

Quote from: cawimmer430 on May 12, 2010, 06:25:31 PM
The thing with MB is that they offer a wide range of engine variants in a model to suit a variety of buyers. These motors range from sufficient to overpowered.

This isn't the case in the US though. In Europe a buyer can select the model that suits him/her the best.


For example, the European E-Class lineup:

DIESEL
E200 CDI
E220 CDI
E250 CDI
E300 CDI
E350 CDI
E350 BlueTEC
E350 CDI BlueTEC 4Matic

GASOLINE
E200 CGI
E250 CGI
E350 CGI
E350 4Matic
E500
E500 4Matic
E63 AMG


And here's the Lexus GS lineup:

GS300
GS460
GS450h



Americans aren't willing (usually) to wait for a car on order. They like driving off that day, and thus that's why we typically only have one other engine choice, if that. To tell the truth, only segments that get engine choices is a couple of compacts, most Midsizers and a handful of small and medium sized SUV's.

cawimmer430

Quote from: 2o6 on May 12, 2010, 06:23:14 PM
For starters, I'm willing to bet that the majority of engines in those large and midsize sedans are four-cylinders.

4-cylinders are nothing to be ashamed about here.

The figures on the W211 from Auto Motor und Sport indicate that the most popular diesel engine choice was the E220 CDI. Over 50% of all W211 E-Classes sold in Europe were E220 CDI's - with a 2.2-l 4-cylinder engine.

The most popular gasoline W211 E-Class was a mixture of E240(E280 facelift) and E320 (E350 facelift) with an E-Class market share of 17%. No word on the market share of the V6 E230 that later appeared. The 4-cylinder E200 Kompressor wasn't as popular as the V6s'.
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