An old but interesting article on "history and heritage" and why it works in EU

[cawimmer430]

Found this while browsing the web. It's from 2006 but there are some pointers in the article which I have been mentioning here all along. 


German upmarket hegemony, built on speed, innovation said unassailable In Europe
But Lexus, other upstarts with quality, style, price might be dangerous combination

In a country like the U.S. where the speed limit is rarely as high as 80 mph, would you buy a Porsche Cayenne SUV rather than a Range Rover because the Porsche was the fastest SUV in the world?

If a BMW Formula 1 car was victorious in the U.S. Grand Prix on a Sunday, would you buy a BMW 540 on Monday rather than a Lexus GS 450h?

Would you decide against buying a Rolls Royce Phantom because it could "only" do 145 mph, and might be overtaken on a German motorway by a Mercedes Maybach?

If your answer's to the above questions are "no", you might have some difficulty suppressing your derision if you read a new book called Premium Power, The Secret Of Success Of Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Porsche And Audi, by Phillip Rosengarten and Christopher Stuermer, published by Palgrave MacMillan.

Messrs Rosengarten and Stuermer are both auto analysts from the Global Insight automotive forecasting company, based in Germany, and Premium Power sets out to show why German upmarket car manufacturers have been so hugely successful around the world, and particularly in North America.

Rosengarten, in an interview, outlined the basic premise of the book, which contends that German upmarket manufacturers, instead of copying Japanese concepts of lean production leading to faultless cars at competitive prices, developed "premium" brands which were differentiated by innovation, often led by success on the race track.

The "premium" brands of BMW, Porsche, Audi and Mercedes-Benz, and for the time being Range Rover and Volvo, are superior to mere luxury cars like Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, Jaguar, and Rolls Royce, because they continuously set new high standards. The luxury brands merely follow and imitate.

"This helps to explain why successful brands in America like Lexus are not so successful in Europe, where customers demand heritage above all," Rosengarten said.

German and Lexus upmarket success in America is undeniable, not to mention the dismal record of Lexus, so far, in Europe.

According to Rosengarten, brands like Range Rover, which is owned by Ford and is part of its Premier Automotive Group (PAG), are in danger of losing premium status and becoming merely luxury if they let innovation slip.

"Range Rover, now belonging to a volume group like Ford, would be in trouble if Ford failed to understand how important innovation is and might starve it of the necessary investment. Its air suspension was a benchmark and others have caught up. Now Range Rover has its All Terrain Response, which is something nobody else has."

All Terrain Response harnesses computer power to control off-roading with settings for conditions like mud, snow, rocks and sand, and almost automates the driving skills required.

Rosengarten says that innovation is demonstrated by motor sport victories, with Porsche showing by various sports car race wins that it stands for speed. Audi rally victories showed how its Quattro four-wheel drive system beat front wheel or rear wheel drive. Both Mercedes and BMW have long competed in Formula 1 Grand Prix. Advertising and sponsorship link premium car makers with upmarket activities including concerts, sports like golf, sailing and skiing, and also communicate the brand's history.


Innovation crucial

"A premium brand can only be successful in the long run if the brand is continuously setting standards in one of the dimensions which are important to its premium customers," he said.

"But premium innovation doesn't mean necessarily high tech or electronic ideas, a simple solution with customer focus will do. For instance there is a new option on the Lamborghini Gallardo which lifts the front suspension a couple of inches to avoid damaging the car as it rides over sleeping policeman (bumps in the road designed to slow urban traffic)."

According to the book, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, and Ferrari are also "premium". Mere "luxury" brands in the U.S. include Acura, Cadillac, Hummer, Infiniti, Lexus, Lincoln and Maybach, while second-rate status in Europe goes to Aston Martin, Jaguar, Lancia, Lotus, Maserati, Mini, Morgan, Rolls Royce, Saab and TVR.

"Performance is important too, it gives a power reserve and reassurance. At Bentley, the new Continental GT sets outstanding standards. With a top speed of 193 mph it puts the Aston Martin Vanquish (part of Ford's PAG), which is nearly 100,000 ($125,000) more expensive in its shadow. People who buy cars like these have achieved something top in their area whether it is football (soccer) or fashion or films, and they want their car to do the same thing," he said.

This idea might seem preposterous to some, that a car which can exceed the speed limit by more than the speed limit itself, at least outside of Germany where often there is no speed limit at all, would be desirable.

German speed limit would destroy premium advantage

But Rosengarten is insistent.

"A speed limit on German motorways would be the end of German premium brands, yes definitely, there's no doubt about that. It is all down to image. The fact that German cars can attain such high speeds forces them all to be very competitive; it brings your performance to a level which no outsider can compete with. The introduction of a speed limit on British roads (in 1965) is one of the reasons for the industry's demise because it didn't have the challenge of top competition any more," Rosengarten said.

Rosengarten is dismissive of the threat from Lexus to upmarket European sales, even though its amazing success in America might be thought to pose a long term threat.


"Pitiful" Lexus

Calling Lexus' European sales of about 20,000 cars a year "pitiful", Rosengarten doesn't rate the Japanese threat very highly.

"Without heritage, which means a glorious history and brand tradition, it will not be easy to establish a successful luxury brand in Europe, not to mention establish a premium brand. All the more so as Lexus has many American luxury-style elements with its design orientation geared towards other premium brands instead of creating its own unique elements, and it cannot showcase any important innovations," he said.

Rosengarten does concede that Toyota, its Lexus subsidiary and Honda's lead in hybrid cars, powered by a combination of petrol and electric motors, might give them some street cred, but he points to an ominous statistic.

"Globally, Lexus is selling less than half of Audi's volume, and less than those of BMW and Mercedes-Benz."

Not everybody falls for the line that car buyers demand a race-bred heritage for their cars, or that the Germans are the only manufacturers capable of producing high quality vehicles with a sporty drive.

The new little Lexus IS, which competes with the BMW 3 series, Audi A4 and Mercedes C-class, drives as well as its European-counterparts and looks just as classy. The new top-of-the-range Lexus LS limousine is surely equal to the Mercedes S class, BMW 7-series or Audi A8, while another Japanese luxury marque, Nissan's Infiniti, shortly to start selling in Europe, is no slouch when it comes to high class design. Cadillac will also be claiming bragging rights for its new cars which are also being seen in Europe in increasing numbers. Chrysler's eye-catching 300C and various Jeep SUVs are also competing vigorously in Europe.


No God-given right

Professor Garel Rhys of Cardiff University Centre for Automotive Research isn't convinced that the Germans have all the answers. The likes of Lexus have also shown that high quality doesn't have to mean prices that make the eyes water. And outright performance might not be such a big seller where consumers are becoming more aware of the need to conserve previous fuel and resources.

"There's no God-given right that German hegemony at the top end of the car market will continue, and when you look at the success of Lexus in America, which has forced the Germans to engage in more realistic pricing strategy, Lexus has certainly opened the eyes of American buyers of German products to the level of prices they are asked to pay," said Rhys.

"Their latest models appeal to the European eye and consumers and are not geared entirely to the American market, unlike Infiniti, which needs a more global shape. Lexus is a very, very competitive package, good handling and efficiency, the sort of car that can give BMW, Audi and Mercedes a good run for their money."


Speed not everything

"This book gives a very German view of the automobile. Customers aren't just interested in speed, but other things like style and quality. And with everybody becoming more aware and interested in global warming, the pursuit of speed is at variance with what might become a more acceptable attitude. High earners too like to demonstrate their social responsibility. Arguing that the Cayenne is faster than the Range Rover, is not the message required in the market place," said Rhys.

High quality, value for money, and a great experience at the dealership are Japanese attributes that will work for them even in the upmarket sector, said Al Bedwell, auto analyst at JDPower's operation in England.

"Having said that I think that German car buyers may be influenced by good motor sport results, but that's just a feeling. But with the right designs and dealer network, Lexus could be a lot more of a threat to German premium brands. Lack of a sporting heritage is only a minor handicap," said Bedwell.

Bedwell estimates that Lexus will raise its sales in Europe to between 45,000 and 55,000 by 2010, while Infiniti, which launches in Russia later this year and will start a full-scale roll out across Europe in 2008, will hit 20,000 by the end of 2010.

Honda's Acura has yet to announce any intention of selling its cars in Europe.


Even the Greens agree

Rosengarten said the German premium car makers have been so successful that last year Audi, Mercedes, BMW and Porsche produced more cars than the mass car manufacturers in Germany Volkswagen, GM's Opel, and Ford.

"I expect that to continue," he said, and underlines the need to make sure Germany's roads remain unrestricted by speed limits.

"It is important to keep away from a speed limit in Germany. All politicians from the main parties agree with this, even the Greens realise its importance; after machine tooling, automobiles are the biggest employer in Germany," he said.

Professor Rhys isn't convinced about this need for speed.

"It would be rather worrying from a German point of view if this book reflects the attitude of the companies. But I don't think they're so enamoured with speed as this book is pushing forward. The German vehicle manufacturers are unlikely to fall into this trap provided by this book," he said.


Link: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060614/AUTO02/606140398/1148/AUTO01

[GoCougs]

They buy them because they're German, not because of innovation, styling, luxury, speed, etc. In short, it's nationalism. Good position to be in I guess for German automakers but it shouldn't be mistaken as an indication of the superior product.

[cawimmer430]

They buy them because they're German, not because of innovation, styling, luxury, speed, etc. In short, it's nationalism. Good position to be in I guess for German automakers but it shouldn't be mistaken as an indication of the superior product.

Do the British and French etc. buy these cars because they're German? I don't really think so. Nationalism is part of the aspect, especially with German cars in Germany, but like I've said all along, brand prestige created through history and heritage is the big thing in Europe. It's one of the defining features of a luxury brand.

Creating Lexus' out of Toyota's isn't our idea of a luxury brand.

[93JC]

So, basically, Europeans are idiots.

[Jon?]

If a V6 Accord can beat it to 60 by 0.04 seconds, the Accord is the superior car.  All other considerations are secondary.

[cawimmer430]

So, basically, Europeans are idiots.

Different culture, different expectations.

Heritage is big here. Can you blame us? Can you blame Europeans for wanting this "feature" in their premium cars based on the incredible history and heritage of Europe? Our castles, our achievements, our culture - things like that are ingrained into our minds. Our luxury brands have this to, this culture, this history etc. It's part of the appeal.

Furthermore, the Japanese luxury brands have really not done anything convincing to make their cars more appealing for the European markets. Not all Europeans buy their premium cars based on the reputation of the brand. But they're realistic enough to know that a Lexus or Infiniti is an expensive car to maintain from a fuel bill and engine tax perspective.

[GoCougs]

Do the British and French etc. buy these cars because they're German? I don't really think so. Nationalism is part of the aspect, especially with German cars in Germany, but like I've said all along, brand prestige created through history and heritage is the big thing in Europe. It's one of the defining features of a luxury brand.

Creating Lexus' out of Toyota's isn't our idea of a luxury brand.

But do the German marques have as large a market share in those countries as they do in Germany? I'm not sure, but my hunch is probably not.

The 1990 LS400 was not only best-of-breed and and a game changer, it was also an all-new luxury flagship design. Fast forward to today and only two of Lexus's models are "Toyotas" (RX350 = JDM Harrier and the LX570 = Land Cruiser). All other models (LS, IS, GS, ES, SC and GX) are Lexus specific.

[MX793]

But do the German marques have as large a market share in those countries as they do in Germany? I'm not sure, but my hunch is probably not.

The 1990 LS400 was not only best-of-breed and and a game changer, it was also an all-new luxury flagship design. Fast forward to today and only two of Lexus's models are "Toyotas" (RX350 = JDM Harrier and the LX570 = Land Cruiser). All other models (LS, IS, GS, ES, SC and GX) are Lexus specific.

The GX is a reskinned 4Runner and the ES is a reskinned Camry.

[cawimmer430]

But do the German marques have as large a market share in those countries as they do in Germany? I'm not sure, but my hunch is probably not.

In the luxury market, YES. German luxury cars dominate in France, Spain, the UK and elsewhere in Europe.

In terms of mainstream products French cars dominate in France, Italian in Spain, a mix of French, Italian, German and Spanish cars in Spain and I believe the best-selling car in the UK is the UK-built Ford Focus.

The 1990 LS400 was not only best-of-breed and and a game changer, it was also an all-new luxury flagship design. Fast forward to today and only two of Lexus's models are "Toyotas" (RX350 = JDM Harrier and the LX570 = Land Cruiser). All other models (LS, IS, GS, ES, SC and GX) are Lexus specific.

The LS400 also came out at a time when its competitors were at the end of their product life cycle. The W126 Mercedes S-Class the LS400 competed with was engineered in 1972, released in 1979 and facelifted in 1985. Many people seem to ignore this fact. Of course the LS400 was going to shine against such an "outdated" car.

I'm also not denying that the LS400 was an amazing car, it was. But it's one car and one car won't give the Lexus brand the prestige the European brands enjoy based on their history, innovation, motorsport involvement etc.

[sportyaccordy]

Not all Europeans buy their premium cars based on the reputation of the brand. But they're realistic enough to know that a Lexus or Infiniti is an expensive car to maintain from a fuel bill and engine tax perspective.

Right, and a Mercedes costs less to run than a Toyota

This gets the Carspinzone bullshit post of the YEAR.

If Europeans really do put heritage above actual meaningful stuff like value, reliability, performance, resale value etc then they deserve all the electric glitches the Germans can throw at them.

[cawimmer430]

Right, and a Mercedes costs less to run than a Toyota

A Mercedes costs more to run than a Toyota. And in Europe an overpriced Toyota () isn't cheap to run either. Lexus sells no fuel-efficient car here with the exception of the outdated and uncompetitive IS220d. The LS600h and GS450h and RX400h are thirsty. The new RX450h is decent in terms of gas mileage but Lexus need a diesel for their bigger cars. Period.

A Lexus in Europe is first of all not cheap (they cost as much or more [now] than some of their rivals) and their poor gas mileage means expensive bills. Add to that engine capacity, kW and emission taxes and you've got a bill that's about equal or even higher than the competing model from a European manufacturer.

If Europeans really do put heritage above actual meaningful stuff like value, reliability, performance, resale value etc then they deserve all the electric glitches the Germans can throw at them.

You know, if German cars were so unreliable then people would stop buying them. It's that simple. People are willing to endure only so much, even those for whom the badge means a lot.

Guess what that means? German (European) cars aren't as unreliable as your typical clueless Internet car forum blogger wants you to think. Hell, our 2002 MB E320, one of the earliest models mind you, has been flawless. It's never been to the shop due to unrealibility etc. I know many people with German/European cars that have no or no major problems.

Oh, and in Europe the resale value of Lexus is in the toilet.

Also (and this has been proven) people tend to exaggerate negatives. It's only human. Look it up. People tend to make an elephant out of as problem that is really a fly. Hell, I was reading on some Infiniti forums the negative responses towards the MB-Renault-Nissan alliance. The most common complaint was that "MB engines are unreliable and will make Infiniti unreliable". Fucking clueless morons. 

[GoCougs]

The GX is a reskinned 4Runner and the ES is a reskinned Camry.

GX = different sheet metal, different drive train, different interior, and different factory. ES = different sheet metal, different interior and different factory. Both are entirely different cars.

[GoCougs]

In the luxury market, YES. German luxury cars dominate in France, Spain, the UK and elsewhere in Europe.

In terms of mainstream products French cars dominate in France, Italian in Spain, a mix of French, Italian, German and Spanish cars in Spain and I believe the best-selling car in the UK is the UK-built Ford Focus.

But aren't stripper versions of BMW, Audi and MB cars sold in Europe as well?

The LS400 also came out at a time when its competitors were at the end of their product life cycle. The W126 Mercedes S-Class the LS400 competed with was engineered in 1972, released in 1979 and facelifted in 1985. Many people seem to ignore this fact. Of course the LS400 was going to shine against such an "outdated" car.

I'm also not denying that the LS400 was an amazing car, it was. But it's one car and one car won't give the Lexus brand the prestige the European brands enjoy based on their history, innovation, motorsport involvement etc.

Where the 1990 LS400 shined wasn't so much in performance or luxury, but attention to detail, quality, and the game-changing quantity German marques still struggle with 20 years later, equating reliability with luxury.

Lexus may not make much inroads in nationalistic markets but in the largest and most a-nationalistic auto market on the planet (the US), Lexus has been the top selling luxury marque for the last 10 years.

[MX793]

GX = different sheet metal, different drive train, different interior, and different factory. ES = different sheet metal, different interior and different factory. Both are entirely different cars.

Better check again.  The GX is sold as a Toyota (Land Cruiser Prado) in Asia and Australia.  It's also assembled in the Tahara plant, same as the 4Runner.

[GoCougs]

Better check again.  The GX is sold as a Toyota (Land Cruiser Prado) in Asia and Australia.  It's also assembled in the Tahara plant, same as the 4Runner.

Yes, in hindsight it's sold as a Toyota elsewhere, but it's not a reskinned 4Runner.

[MX793]

Yes, in hindsight it's sold as a Toyota elsewhere, but it's not a reskinned 4Runner.

Same frame, same suspension, that means that it's largely just the skin that's different.  Interior isn't even 100% different, I can spot shared parts without looking too hard.  Sure, one has a V8 and the other only comes with a 4 or 6, but different engines don't mean a different vehicle (as evidenced by the fact that a 4-pot 4Runner is as much a 4Runner as a V6).

[2o6]

Wimmer, there aren't any French or Spanish luxury marques.

[GoCougs]

Same frame, same suspension, that means that it's largely just the skin that's different.  Interior isn't even 100% different, I can spot shared parts without looking too hard.  Sure, one has a V8 and the other only comes with a 4 or 6, but different engines don't mean a different vehicle (as evidenced by the fact that a 4-pot 4Runner is as much a 4Runner as a V6).

Somewhat related, sure, but they're different vehicles however, just as the ES350 and Camry are. The LX570 vs. Land Cruiser and RX350 vs. Harrier are direct rebadges.

[Raza]

I can almost see the GX argument, but the ES?

[HurricaneSteve]

If I had the money I'd purchase a 335i not because it had a BMW badge on it but rather because of the whole package it brings to the table. I could care less about how many races BMW has won or when it started building cars, what I care about is the car itself and whether or not it fits my needs.

That having been said, I think Lexus is doing amazingly well considering they were created essentially from scratch and do not place as much emphasis on styling and performance as the German marques do. If they truly want to be on equal footing with the Germans then they have to apply their attention to detail towards aesthetics and feel, not just cost and efficiency.

[Cookie Monster]

If I had the money I'd purchase a 335i not because it had a BMW badge on it but rather because of the whole package it brings to the table. I could care less about how many races BMW has won or when it started building cars, what I care about is the car itself and whether or not it fits my needs.

It's "I COULDN'T care less"!

If you COULD care less then you do care about it.

Sorry, pet peeve.

[sportyaccordy]

A Mercedes costs more to run than a Toyota. And in Europe an overpriced Toyota () isn't cheap to run either. Lexus sells no fuel-efficient car here with the exception of the outdated and uncompetitive IS220d. The LS600h and GS450h and RX400h are thirsty. The new RX450h is decent in terms of gas mileage but Lexus need a diesel for their bigger cars. Period.

Thirsty compared to what? Any gas car, even a hybrid, will probably be more thirsty than an equivalently powerful/heavy diesel car. That is just pure chemistry.

A Lexus in Europe is first of all not cheap (they cost as much or more [now] than some of their rivals) and their poor gas mileage means expensive bills. Add to that engine capacity, kW and emission taxes and you've got a bill that's about equal or even higher than the competing model from a European manufacturer.

That simply due to Europe's draconian consumption laws. Here in the US, one, MB doesn't even offer smaller engines, and two doesn't benefit from nationalist tax breaks. So Lexus/Infiniti being more expensive in Europe is more an effect of policy and less an effect of inefficient design.

You know, if German cars were so unreliable then people would stop buying them. It's that simple. People are willing to endure only so much, even those for whom the badge means a lot.

People DID stop buying them in the US when the Japanese got in the game. Here, the Japanese offer value, performance and reliability... people here buy with their heads, not their hearts.

Guess what that means? German (European) cars aren't as unreliable as your typical clueless Internet car forum blogger wants you to think. Hell, our 2002 MB E320, one of the earliest models mind you, has been flawless. It's never been to the shop due to unrealibility etc. I know many people with German/European cars that have no or no major problems.

Well in the US the W210 is known to have some serious problems... shock towers rusting out, engine failure causing oil problems and some other shit. Reliability surveys show this and resale values reflect this. For whatever reason MB decided to build US spec cars differently, so our cars have way more problems. Plus since we're taking anecdotal experiences as representative of the whole, 2 of Raza's Benzes just completely broke down. I guess that means 2/3s of Mercedes Benzes will break down.

Oh, and in Europe the resale value of Lexus is in the toilet.

Also (and this has been proven) people tend to exaggerate negatives. It's only human. Look it up. People tend to make an elephant out of as problem that is really a fly. Hell, I was reading on some Infiniti forums the negative responses towards the MB-Renault-Nissan alliance. The most common complaint was that "MB engines are unreliable and will make Infiniti unreliable". Fucking clueless morons.  

Resale value of Lexus is in the toilet in Europe because you guys value a badge and country of origin over how reliable a car performs. Also European marques have the market base to warrant research and create smaller + more efficient powertrains, where as Lexus/Infiniti are just trying to get in the door, but have to fight uphill against nationalism and ridiculous consumption taxes. You really mean to tell me the MB S470 is that much better of a car than the LS460 because the MB has heritage?

Do Europeans even research cars before they buy them or do they just pick a badge and run with it? If what you say is true,

[cawimmer430]

But aren't stripper versions of BMW, Audi and MB cars sold in Europe as well?

Of course. But this applies mostly to the smaller cars like the A3/1-Series/A-B-Class and A4/3er/C-Class. Cars like the A6/5er/E-Class [and above] are usually optioned out more and naturally come with more features.

You also have stripper TT/Z4/SLK variants. But even with all these entry-level cars, they're well-equipped for most people. You have everything you need in them and Europeans aren't as offended as Americans when you don't have electric windows or leather as standard. 

Where the 1990 LS400 shined wasn't so much in performance or luxury, but attention to detail, quality, and the game-changing quantity German marques still struggle with 20 years later, equating reliability with luxury.

Attention to detail in an LS400? I'm sorry, but I could never see this famous "attention to detail" in that car. The interior lacked elegance or character and I certainly did not see any attention to detail in it.

Current Lexus interiors have improved, but they strike me as ugly, un-elegant and Toyotaesque in appearance. And the attention to detail is still missing in most of their cabins if you ask me. When it comes to attention to detail I think Audi kills Lexus a million times over.

Lexus may not make much inroads in nationalistic markets but in the largest and most a-nationalistic auto market on the planet (the US), Lexus has been the top selling luxury marque for the last 10 years.

And Lexus was specifically created for North America. It appeals to Americans. Brands like BMW and Mercedes have global appeal and Audi is the rising star. Global appeal means they're cars that appeal to people in markets throughout the world.

Globally Lexus sales are weak. In fact when people talk about "Lexus global sales" they fail to omit that 3/4 of Lexus sales are in the US. Period.

[cawimmer430]

Wimmer, there aren't any French or Spanish luxury marques.

I wasn't talking about "luxury cars" when I referred to the Spanish and French cars. I was talking about mainstream cars: Seat, Renault, Peugeot and Citroen.

And you should be aware that the French have had luxury cars offered under their mainstream brands: Renault Safrane, Citroen C6 and the Peugeot 607 come to mind. Even the infamous Citroen SM and even the DS were all considered higher end in their day.

[cawimmer430]

That simply due to Europe's draconian consumption laws. Here in the US, one, MB doesn't even offer smaller engines, and two doesn't benefit from nationalist tax breaks. So Lexus/Infiniti being more expensive in Europe is more an effect of policy and less an effect of inefficient design.

MB doesn't offer smaller engines in the US because of perception reasons. But that can change soon. There's some serious talk going on about bringing over 4-cylinder C/E-Classes, both petrol and diesel.

Also, the European brands offer their high performance / high output engines here. But they also provide more "realistic engine options" such as cars like the BMW 320d, MB C220 CDI, E220 CDI, 520d/530d etc. Stuff like that is what people find appealing and adequate to their needs. The Japanese luxury brands have no answer to these cars. They're trying to sell American style luxury in Europe - and it's not very successful. Even Cadillac is learning the hard way. No diesels = no sales. No smaller engines = no sales.

People DID stop buying them in the US when the Japanese got in the game. Here, the Japanese offer value, performance and reliability... people here buy with their heads, not their hearts.

Not everyone has problems with their European luxury car.

Not everyone has a reliable Japanese car.


Value, believe it or not, can be subjective. Somebody might be see more value in a Mercedes than a Lexus based on factors like the badge or safety record etc.

Performance? Yeah, German cars don't perform. I mean an S550 gets raped by a Toyota Supra! How embarrassing!

Reliability - correct me if I am wrong but the bulletproof reputation for reliability really lies only with Toyota and Honda.

Well in the US the W210 is known to have some serious problems... shock towers rusting out, engine failure causing oil problems and some other shit. Reliability surveys show this and resale values reflect this. For whatever reason MB decided to build US spec cars differently, so our cars have way more problems. Plus since we're taking anecdotal experiences as representative of the whole, 2 of Raza's Benzes just completely broke down. I guess that means 2/3s of Mercedes Benzes will break down.

The W210 has some rust and electrical issues, true, but it's far from the crapbox people make it out to be. I have two relatives with W210's, one of whom has over 500,000 km on it (he uses it to travel Europe for his business). If this car truly was so shitty, he wouldn't have kept it. Also, the W210 is still a common sight as a taxi or private car here. Most of them are in great shape. I have no idea how they performed in terms of reliability, but those few times I take a taxi, it's usually a W210 and I chat with the driver asking them how the car has held up. Generally, they're happy with the car. If there are problems, they must be minor. Nothing to get upset about.

US-spec MB's tend to have more features and as I understand it, MB used a type of electronic node networking system that didn't allow bypasses. When one node failed, a bypass wasn't possible and thus certain systems went awry. Now, as I understand it, MB uses a different node system that allows bypasses making the electronics more reliable overall.

Raza's E320 has the same engine as our W211 E320. Ours recently passed 100,000 km (it's now currently at 117,000 km+) and the engine feels great. In fact we've never had anything go wrong in this car.

Resale value of Lexus is in the toilet in Europe because you guys value a badge and country of origin over how reliable a car performs. Also European marques have the market base to warrant research and create smaller + more efficient powertrains, where as Lexus/Infiniti are just trying to get in the door, but have to fight uphill against nationalism and ridiculous consumption taxes.

Our cars are reliable. And maybe we don't make such a big fuss about something that breaks like Americans seem to do. Seems to me that when the cup holders break you guys get a heart attack... 

Also, the situation is how it is in Europe. I can't change it. But I can adapt to it - by driving the appropriate car. Lexus and Infiniti have not adapted to Europe. And when they have tried, and this applies to Lexus, it was half-hearted. The IS220d was never competitive and the new CT200h won't be particularly successful against the 1-Series if it has a hybrid powerplant under the hood. Hybrids are expensive in Europe. The way I see it, there's more value and appeal in a BMW 120i Hatchback than a Lexus CT200h. Not to mention design: the 1er looks ok, the CT200h is just downright nasty.

You really mean to tell me the MB S470 is that much better of a car than the LS460 because the MB has heritage?

Let's be realistic here. Both the S-Class and LS are top class cars. But for some people the luxury experience is more complete if the badge means something or they can emotionally relate to it etc. For such people, the Mercedes S-Class might be the "better choice" based on what they're looking for.

Also, don't forget that Lexus sells in the US based on their badge. The difference is just that in the US Lexus = God, and here in Europe Lexus means shit.

Do Europeans even research cars before they buy them or do they just pick a badge and run with it? If what you say is true,

They do. We want to get a good deal on a car as much as anyone.

And guess what? Our manufacturers offer good deals on cars here. The overall package is very appealing. Americans like features, we don't really want shit in our car that we don't need, hence the reason why Lexus is unappealing. Also, allowing us to choose what we want in our cars is part of individualizing or customizing our cars. The fact that we have to pay for these options isn't to much of an issue for most people.

[Laconian]

Lexus isn't God in the United States. It's just another respected brand alongside BMW and Mercedes.

[Tave]

Lexus isn't God in the United States. It's just another respected brand alongside BMW and Mercedes.

Lexus is what Level 2 guys drive after they fight off a mountain lion with their bare hands and finish ravishing the supermodel they just saved.

[GoCougs]

Of course. But this applies mostly to the smaller cars like the A3/1-Series/A-B-Class and A4/3er/C-Class. Cars like the A6/5er/E-Class [and above] are usually optioned out more and naturally come with more features.

You also have stripper TT/Z4/SLK variants. But even with all these entry-level cars, they're well-equipped for most people. You have everything you need in them and Europeans aren't as offended as Americans when you don't have electric windows or leather as standard. 

Attention to detail in an LS400? I'm sorry, but I could never see this famous "attention to detail" in that car. The interior lacked elegance or character and I certainly did not see any attention to detail in it.

Current Lexus interiors have improved, but they strike me as ugly, un-elegant and Toyotaesque in appearance. And the attention to detail is still missing in most of their cabins if you ask me. When it comes to attention to detail I think Audi kills Lexus a million times over.

And Lexus was specifically created for North America. It appeals to Americans. Brands like BMW and Mercedes have global appeal and Audi is the rising star. Global appeal means they're cars that appeal to people in markets throughout the world.

Globally Lexus sales are weak. In fact when people talk about "Lexus global sales" they fail to omit that 3/4 of Lexus sales are in the US. Period.

The main disparity in "global" sales is that Lexus is a luxury automaker everywhere. Audi, BMW and M-B? Not so much.

Lexus knows exactly what it is doing by remaining exclusively a luxury automaker; Lexus is just happy not being a sales leader/contender overseas because it does not have competition for the A3/1er/A-class or a stripper A6/5er/E-class.

[cawimmer430]

The main disparity in "global" sales is that Lexus is a luxury automaker everywhere. Audi, BMW and M-B? Not so much.

Lexus has Toyota. Toyota infuses cash into Lexus. BMW and Mercedes don't have a mainstream brand that can supply it with cash based on massive sales. Lexus was created for the US. They were CREATED specifically for the US. Nothing to it. Boring. Just get a couple of Toyota's and slap a Lexus badge on them. Raise the price, add leather, move the steering wheel on the left and you have a Lexus. In this fashion, Lexus can afford to remain "upscale".

The history of Mercedes and BMW is completely different from Lexus. Those German brands had to survive in their day and they did it by offering lesser models. This was true prior to World War I and post World War II. And they did it under their BMW and MB names. And has it harmed their reputation? No. Outside of the US luxury cars with smaller engines and less features are quite common.

And BMW and MB have history and heritage on their side. This has defined them as impressive automakers. Lexus might make good cars, but their brand history is boring and dull and only confined to the US for the most part.

Lexus knows exactly what it is doing by remaining exclusively a luxury automaker; Lexus is just happy not being a sales leader/contender overseas because it does not have competition for the A3/1er/A-class or a stripper A6/5er/E-class.

A stripper luxury car is nothing to be ashamed about here. Most Europeans want things in their car that they actually will use. The most common option people order in their luxury car here is probably the automatic transmission. Most European premium cars come well-equipped these days with the basic features any normal human being requires: A/C, radio and even electric windows now. And we don't make a big fuzz about manual seats...

And Lexus has just entered the 1-Series market with their new CT200h.

[MX793]

A stripper luxury car is nothing to be ashamed about here. Most Europeans want things in their car that they actually will use. The most common option people order in their luxury car here is probably the automatic transmission. Most European premium cars come well-equipped these days with the basic features any normal human being requires: A/C, radio and even electric windows now. And we don't make a big fuzz about manual seats...

Apparently Europeans don't understand what a "luxury" car is.  A "Luxury car" is supposed to have a lot of features, many of which you may not ever even use.  A "luxury car" that is stripped of most of its amenities is no longer a luxury car, it's a regular car with a luxury car's badge and price premium.