Brute force vs precision and feedback

[Submariner]

What?

I'm the only person that chose brute force???   


Figures...

I chose the 911 Turbo over the Cayman S. 

[ChrisV]

You can only enjoy brute force under ideal conditions. Precision + feedback can be enjoyed in maneuvers as rudimentary as turning through an intersection.

Or, you can't use precision and feedback except under ideal, no traffic conditions, but you can use brute force every time you use an on-ramp or leave on a green light/stop sign.

Two can play that little game.

Once you own a car with more then three hamsters pulling it around, you might understand. And I really don't see why you used budgetary reasons as a reason why you can have a car with both. I BUILT cars with both on a shoestring budget (of course, you have to give up a tad bit of dash-stroke-ability, but really, who gives a crap?)

[ChrisV]

And you need to drive some better cars on even better roads if you don't get enjoyment out of turning.

Sporty talked about a simply 90 degree intersection. That's not "great roads." That's trying desperately to find SOMETHING interesting to do because your car is slow.

[sportyaccordy]

ChrisV your crusade is comical.

I have driven turbocharged G35s and supercharged SL55s. If you think my only point of reference for cars is the tin can in my sig you're sadly mistaken. While I haven't rebuilt a SCCA Solo 2 winning Dodge Aspen from scratch, I too have "built" a few cars and have a little more experience + knowledge than the average enthusiast. Plus this thread was just to foster discussion- take note of who the first one was in this thread to make an attack or mention another poster's name, everyone.

Precision and feedback DO come into play during rudimentary driving. Throttle/brake tip in calibration, on-center steering feel, suspension response... these are all things civilians would notice being different between different cars. I had a blast flogging that SL55, but at the end of the day its power is really just the icing on the cake and wouldn't have made or broken that car. Once a car is able to get out of its own way and has a well calibrated transmission I am OK. Details like well matched springs/dampers, good on center steering feedback, brake feel etc never get old.

[Raza]

I disagree 100%.  You can make any car faster.  You can't dramatically alter things like steering feel.

I'm with you on this one.


Obviously, precision and feedback for me. 

[Raza]

I chose the 911 Turbo over the Cayman S. 

And I'd take a Carrera 2S over both. 

[Payman]

And I'd take a Carrera 2S over both. 

Carrera 4S, please.

[sportyaccordy]

Carrera 4S, please.

I can't imagine this being much better in the snow/wet than a 2S with those ridiculous rear meats. 2S for me as well, even in NYC.

[Payman]

I can't imagine this being much better in the snow/wet than a 2S with those ridiculous rear meats. 2S for me as well, even in NYC.

Wider tires are worse in snow than skinny tires. 4 wheel traction trumps 2 wheel anytime.

[68_427]

I'll take both please.  GT3 RS w/ Sharkwerk's 3.9L

[Raza]

Carrera 4S, please.

Nah, I don't want the AWD.

[Payman]

Nah, I don't want the AWD.

An AWD Carrera 4 with skinny Blizzacks would be sweet up here in the winter. I wouldn't do this because of all the road salt, but still...
Then there's the added security in the rain. I drove the Carrera 4 in rain/drizzle/fog, and never felt more comfortable going 120+ kph in the wet.

[Payman]

I'd still be happy with a standard Carrera though.

[Submariner]

And I'd take a Carrera 2S over both. 

Hmmph...my father would be pleased, but I still think I would end up with a Turbo. 

Then again, I have the money for neither, so...

[SVT666]

There are a few cars that give both brute force and handling that are affordable (under $50K):

2011 Ford Mustang GT
2011 Shelby GT500
Nissan 370Z
Subaru WRX STi
Mitsubishi Lancer EVO X
Chevy Cobalt SS Turbo
Chevrolet Corvette
MazdaSpeed3

[SVT32V]

I disagree 100%.  You can make any car faster.  You can't dramatically alter things like steering feel.

I disagree 200%, if you are talking about hopping up a family car maybe, but most what you would probably describe as brute force cars have a rich aftermarket. For example a rustang has hi-po aftermarket rack and pinions, steering shafts, control arms, bushings, springs, K-members, coil-over conversions etc.  These will add precision easier than you can make an Si fast.

Further, adding reasonable brute to a car that seems precise at 150-200 hp will often overpower the chassis and suspension making it no longer precise.

[SVT32V]

There are a few cars that give both brute force and handling that are affordable (under $50K):

2011 Ford Mustang GT
2011 Shelby GT500
Nissan 370Z
Subaru WRX STi
Mitsubishi Lancer EVO X
Chevy Cobalt SS Turbo
Chevrolet Corvette
MazdaSpeed3

Not surprisingly, those people with slower/lower hp cars are defending their subjective view of precision and those with faster/more powerful cars cars are in the brute force camp.

So the argument is that turning at 4/10s is more enjoyable than accelrating at 7/10-8/10s.

Different strokes.

[Raza]

Not surprisingly, those people with slower/lower hp cars are defending their subjective view of precision and those with faster/more powerful cars cars are in the brute force camp.

So the argument is that turning at 4/10s is more enjoyable than accelrating at 7/10-8/10s.

Different strokes.

I've got a pretty quick car that handles very well, and I push it to the limits, both forward and side-to-side.  I'd miss the handling a lot more than the power. 

[SVT32V]

I've got a pretty quick car that handles very well, and I push it to the limits, both forward and side-to-side.  I'd miss the handling a lot more than the power. 

Yet your car would be out-accelerated by a variety of family cars. I don't mean to be insulting but your car can't hold a candle to the acceleration of the cars in SVT666's list. Nor the handling of the cars on the list.

[Raza]

Yet your car would be out-accelerated by a variety of family cars. I don't mean to be insulting but your car can't hold a candle to the acceleration of the cars in SVT666's list. Nor the handling of the cars on the list.

Acceleration, no.  Handling?  Absolutely.  


And that goes to prove my point even more.  If I wouldn't miss a few horses from my 200, I obviously don't care much for the Mustang's 412.  I don't mind them, no, but they're far from necessary. 

ChrisV once said to me "If you need a powerful car to have fun, you're old".  My car's plenty quick enough to trouble most of what's out there. 

[SVT666]

Acceleration, no.  Handling?  Absolutely.  


And that goes to prove my point even more.  If I wouldn't miss a few horses from my 200, I obviously don't care much for the Mustang's 412.  I don't mind them, no, but they're far from necessary. 

ChrisV once said to me "If you need a powerful car to have fun, you're old".  My car's plenty quick enough to trouble most of what's out there. 

ChrisV is wrong though.  As always he thinks his personal preferences are the golden rule.

[Raza]

ChrisV is wrong though.  As always he thinks his personal preferences are the golden rule.

Don't get me wrong; power is fun.  I used to have a Boxster S, which would put all the cars on that list to shame in handling and is on par with or faster than most of them as well. 

[SVT32V]

Acceleration, no.  Handling?  Absolutely. 


And that goes to prove my point even more.  If I wouldn't miss a few horses from my 200, I obviously don't care much for the Mustang's 412.  I don't mind them, no, but they're far from necessary. 

ChrisV once said to me "If you need a powerful car to have fun, you're old".  My car's plenty quick enough to trouble most of what's out there. 

Like I said different strokes, on a track I highly doubt your car could trouble any of the cars on the list.

I would miss the hp more than anything, that said the cobra doesn't have much in the way of hp mods but a good bit of suspension mods.  Obviously, the power was there and better handling and putting the power down more effectively was a weaker point. 

[Raza]

Like I said different strokes, on a track I highly doubt your car could trouble any of the cars on the list.

I would miss the hp more than anything, that said the cobra doesn't have much in the way of hp mods but a good bit of suspension mods.  Obviously, the power was there and better handling and putting the power down more effectively was a weaker point. 

Luckily, I just recently moved; my old house was on a track.

[sportyaccordy]

Luckily, I just recently moved; my old house was on a track.

Lol I was gonna say, I think SVT 32V was the first person to post the word "track" in this thread

And I wouldn't call $50K affordable

But none of that was the point of the thread... if you had to choose between one or the other, what would you go with?

Not, 'why do none of the opinions of other Carspinners matter' or 'what are the minimum required quarter mile/skidpad figures of a car you must own to participate in this discussion'

People go to extreme lengths to legitimize their viewpoints. You guys would choose brute force... OK, completely understandable, no need to belittle those who disagree for whatever reason.

[SVT666]

Lol I was gonna say, I think SVT 32V was the first person to post the word "track" in this thread

And I wouldn't call $50K affordable

But none of that was the point of the thread... if you had to choose between one or the other, what would you go with?

Not, 'why do none of the opinions of other Carspinners matter' or 'what are the minimum required quarter mile/skidpad figures of a car you must own to participate in this discussion'

People go to extreme lengths to legitimize their viewpoints. You guys would choose brute force... OK, completely understandable, no need to belittle those who disagree for whatever reason.

You stated you can't get both in an affordable car.  I gave a list of cars that provide both that are affordable.

[sportyaccordy]

You stated you can't get both in an affordable car.  I gave a list of cars that provide both that are affordable.

Point noted, but you still seem to miss the whole point of the thread.

[MrH]

Luckily, I just recently moved; my old house was on a track.

Between this comment and ripping into Teuton's career, you've been on a roll lately.

I disagree 200%, if you are talking about hopping up a family car maybe, but most what you would probably describe as brute force cars have a rich aftermarket. For example a rustang has hi-po aftermarket rack and pinions, steering shafts, control arms, bushings, springs, K-members, coil-over conversions etc.  These will add precision easier than you can make an Si fast.

Further, adding reasonable brute to a car that seems precise at 150-200 hp will often overpower the chassis and suspension making it no longer precise.

...and you're still left with an independent rear axle.  Fundamental things like handling dynamics can only go so far with what you're given.  The sky's the limit when it comes to power.  Besides, how much power can you use day to day?  An NC Miata has 170 hp.  That can shoot through traffic about as fast I can safely do it.  But the steering feel and turn in is something I can appreciate constantly.

Even test driving a GTI with 200 hp, I was chirping the tires everywhere I went.  You're traction limited with a lot of higher powered stuff at street legal speeds.

[SVT32V]

Lol I was gonna say, I think SVT 32V was the first person to post the word "track" in this thread

And I wouldn't call $50K affordable

But none of that was the point of the thread... if you had to choose between one or the other, what would you go with?

Not, 'why do none of the opinions of other Carspinners matter' or 'what are the minimum required quarter mile/skidpad figures of a car you must own to participate in this discussion'

People go to extreme lengths to legitimize their viewpoints. You guys would choose brute force... OK, completely understandable, no need to belittle those who disagree for whatever reason.

I certainly didn't belittle anyone's views, although I would say if you can go 10/10ths on a public road you need a car with better handling and more power.  10/10ths for either handling or brute force belongs on the track. Yeah, yeah I know we all do it once in a awhile but one shouldn't be rounding a corner at 10/10ths and plow into something nor should one be taking some brute car and nailing second and spinning into the next lane.

I think you are the first one to mention skid pads and 1/4 mile times.

[SVT32V]

Luckily, I just recently moved; my old house was on a track.

It is indeed probably best that you moved away from the track, the competition out there is getting quite impressive.

At a track the driver mod is the most important anyway.