Newly improved ZR1 shows promise but prompts some philosophical questions

[omicron]

Well PTM is only available for the Z06.

I think the $20K question is whether or not the Z06 is worth the money over the Grand Sport... especially given the aftermarket available for the LS3 (and C6 in general).

There's a certain romance about a 427ci Chevrolet V8 engine, but a Grand Sport does seem like better value in comparison to a Z06.

Very easy answer: the Z06 does not have the super-expensive magnetic particle closed loop variable rate shocks (which mitigate the awful design of the transverse leaf spring causing ride issues and inherent twitchyness).

I thought they were an option on all Corvettes?

[hotrodalex]

Pwnt by cougs again.

BTW, a modern minivan could definitely take on a late '70's Camaro, when the fuel regulations decreased power so much and a top Camaro had 170 hp. There are videos on Youtube of Odysseys beating 4th gen SN-95 V6 Rustangs in a straight line so it seems like it would be a close race.

Late 70's Camaros are pieces of crap. I never use a late 70's model when talking about performance as they were not the pinnacle of the design or performance.

And, let's just see here...

0-60:

1971 Camaro Z28 - 7.0 seconds ( http://musclecarfacts.net/1971-camaro.html )
2011 Toyota Sienna - 7.9 seconds ( http://www.insideline.com/toyota/sienna/2011/2011-toyota-sienna-vs-2010-honda-odyssey-minivan-comparison.html )
2010 Honda Odyssey - 8.8 seconds ( http://www.insideline.com/toyota/sienna/2011/2011-toyota-sienna-vs-2010-honda-odyssey-minivan-comparison.html )

Skidpad:

1968 Camaro - 0.76 g ( http://www.superchevy.com/technical/chassis/suspension_steering/sucp_0605_camaro_suspension_upgrade/index.html )
2011 Toyota Sienna - 0.77/0.76 g ( http://www.insideline.com/toyota/sienna/2011/2011-toyota-sienna-vs-2010-honda-odyssey-minivan-comparison.html )
2010 Honda Odyssey - 0.74/0.73 g ( http://www.insideline.com/toyota/sienna/2011/2011-toyota-sienna-vs-2010-honda-odyssey-minivan-comparison.html )

The '68 Camaro matches the handling of the Sienna with the traction control off. This is also a first gen Camaro, not known for it's great suspension. The second gen was engineered much better (GM kinda of just threw the first gen Camaro together to get it out onto the showroom floor) and should get much better numbers.

[GoCougs]

Physics disagrees with you greatly boss man, pickups by default have terrible handling

And stock for stock a minivan today might beat a stock 2nd gen Camaro of the past as you can get a Honda Odyssey w/a sports package and good tires yadda yadda. But given the same meats and HP you'd be a fool to bet on the minivan winning

Nah, generically quoting "physics" means little; for an even more extreme example which would handle better - a '50 Ford coupe or said pickup? The '50 Ford is small/lighter/lower/etc, but it would get blown into the weeds by a modern pickup.

The person betting on the Camaro is likely a person who has never driven/owned/worked on one. The Odyssey would make it cry like a little girl; and even the lone model that would have any chance of not getting spanked ('70 Z-28) rides so rough it'd be almost unbearable.

[hotrodalex]

Nah, generically quoting "physics" means little; for an even more extreme example which would handle better - a '50 Ford coupe or said pickup? The '50 Ford is small/lighter/lower/etc, but it would get blown into the weeds by a modern pickup.

The person betting on the Camaro is likely a person who has never driven/owned/worked on one. The Odyssey would make it cry like a little girl; and even the lone model that would have any chance of not getting spanked ('70 Z-28) rides so rough it'd be almost unbearable.

Have you ever driven a '70 Z28 to back up that statement?

[Raza]

I'll put my car against anything from that era too.  Barring the top, top performance models, I bet I'd walk pretty much everything in just a straight line (first corner, leave them for dead).  Let's face it, you can quote a skidpad number, but that' doesn't mean shit, really.  My buddy's 02 Mustang GT was much faster than my car at the time, and it couldn't keep up with me worth a damn in the twisties, and my E320 was no better than a mediocre handler (my other friend's Z28 couldn't shake me either, so it wasn't an isolated driver to driver thing). 

[hotrodalex]

I'll put my car against anything from that era too.  Barring the top, top performance models, I bet I'd walk pretty much everything in just a straight line (first corner, leave them for dead).  Let's face it, you can quote a skidpad number, but that' doesn't mean shit, really.  My buddy's 02 Mustang GT was much faster than my car at the time, and it couldn't keep up with me worth a damn in the twisties, and my E320 was no better than a mediocre handler (my other friend's Z28 couldn't shake me either, so it wasn't an isolated driver to driver thing). 

I tried to find slalom numbers, but couldn't find ones that matched up (the link for the skidpad had a slalom run but it wasn't the length as the minivan's slalom)

From personal experience, a second gen is pretty good in the twisties. The biggest problem is the tendency to break loose a bit before the apex. That being said, I wouldn't doubt a Jetta being faster through the twisties since it's a well engineered, modern car. A Mazda 6 is faster than it as well. But a minivan? No.

[MrH]

This thread is a perfect example of people who constantly bitch about cars getting heavier.  Any modern car completely hands older cars their ass on a platter for the most part.

[GoCougs]

Have you ever driven a '70 Z28 to back up that statement?

Have driven/ridden in numerous 2nd-gen Camaros but I don't think the '70 Z-28 was among them; but of course this is not needed to back up the statement. A person with any automotive experience whatsoever who has never driven or ridden in any of the vehicles mentioned would know the scoop and otherwise wouldn't bat an eye at the assertions I've made.

[Raza]

This thread is a perfect example of people who constantly bitch about cars getting heavier.  Any modern car completely hands older cars their ass on a platter for the most part.

They'd be even faster, better handling, and more fuel efficient if they were lighter, though. 

[hotrodalex]

Have driven/ridden in numerous 2nd-gen Camaros but I don't think the '70 Z-28 was among them; but of course this is not needed to back up the statement. A person with any automotive experience whatsoever who has never driven or ridden in any of the vehicles mentioned would know the scoop and otherwise wouldn't bat an eye at the assertions I've made.

You said it "rides so rough it'd be almost unbearable." How would you know that if you haven't ridden in one?

[SVT32V]

I think we reached the point of cars being too powerful for the street a long time ago.  When you have systems that have to cut power between shifts or in lower gears, then what's the point of all that power if the car won't even let you use it.

Isn't this always the case, I doubt a 454 chevelle could put power down effectively.  The only time this isn't a problem is when hp was artificially low like the mid to late 70s and early 80s.

[GoCougs]

You said it "rides so rough it'd be almost unbearable." How would you know that if you haven't ridden in one?

Uh, because if you take later Z-28s, which ride and handle fairly poorly and remove a couple of hundred pounds you have the '70 Z-28, which by the benefit of less weight will ride even worse.

[hotrodalex]

Uh, because if you take later Z-28s, which ride and handle fairly poorly and remove a couple of hundred pounds you have the '70 Z-28, which by the benefit of less weight will ride even worse.

Pure speculation.

[SVT666]

He knows this the sme way he knows the new Camaro is so much better then the new Mustang...and he hasn't driven either of those cars either.

[GoCougs]

Pure speculation.

You're simply going to have to buck up to the fact the second-gen Camaro is relatively speaking a pretty lousy car in all respects, including handling.

[hotrodalex]

Yes sir. How silly of me to think anything to the contrary. You are all knowing. I am in awe of your knowledge, especially how you know everything without even driving the car.

[Tave]

I've driven that era Camaro, and like everyone else has said, I wouldn't back it in a fight against modern machines. I'm with Hemi on this one--I'd give the Ram a fair shot in odds.

[Cookie Monster]

Yes sir. How silly of me to think anything to the contrary. You are all knowing. I am in awe of your knowledge, especially how you know everything without even driving the car.

Have you driven it?

[GoCougs]

Yes sir. How silly of me to think anything to the contrary. You are all knowing. I am in awe of your knowledge, especially how you know everything without even driving the car.

Not really silly - you originally got a bit snotty when you saw something you didn't agree with and then got carried a way in trying to defend yourself.

[hotrodalex]

Have you driven it?

I've driven my '71 RS and rode in a Z28 before. And like I said, it will get beaten by modern cars like Raza's Jetta. But it can still hold its own and it's not horrible enough to be beaten by a minivan (I have no experience with Dodge Rams so I can't comment on that)

[GoCougs]

I've driven my '71 RS and rode in a Z28 before. And like I said, it will get beaten by modern cars like Raza's Jetta. But it can still hold its own and it's not horrible enough to be beaten by a minivan (I have no experience with Dodge Rams so I can't comment on that)

Oops.

[sportyaccordy]

Cougs have you driven a minivan?

[Tave]

I've driven a newer minivan (Honda). Why not the sharpest tool in the drawer, it certainly felt a lot more capable than 1970s muscle WRT handling prowess. In fact it felt more or less like an Accord in terms of ride.

[Raza]

I've driven a newer minivan (Honda). Why not the sharpest tool in the drawer, it certainly felt a lot more capable than 1970s muscle WRT handling prowess. In fact it felt more or less like an Accord in terms of ride.

Hmm...what year Odyssey?  The 02 or 03 one I drove a while back was pretty crappy.  I wouldn't want to test it in the twisties (and let's not even bring up the Caravan I drove on occasion!).  Logic says it would be sharper than a 40 year old car though.

[68_427]

Hmm...what year Odyssey?  The 02 or 03 one I drove a while back was pretty crappy.  I wouldn't want to test it in the twisties (and let's not even bring up the Caravan I drove on occasion!).  Logic says it would be sharper than most 40 year old car though.

[Raza]

You got me fair and square. 

[68_427]

That Elan...

[GoCougs]

Cougs have you driven a minivan?

Yes. I used to get rentals all the time and have pretty much driven most of them.

But as Raza states, logic dictates that a 40+ year-old vehicle will suck in comparison.

[Onslaught]

This thread is a perfect example of people who constantly bitch about cars getting heavier.  Any modern car completely hands older cars their ass on a platter for the most part.

Yes they would. But that's not to say they're more fun.

And if a modern car wasn't so heavy then it would be even faster then it is now.

[Byteme]

I think we reached the point of cars being too powerful for the street a long time ago.  When you have systems that have to cut power between shifts or in lower gears, then what's the point of all that power if the car won't even let you use it.

I've always felt that anything over 300 HP in a street car buys you nothing but bragging rights.