GM?s Volt priced for the average family

[Raza]

There is no value in technology just for technology's sake. $350 a month to LEASE? You can lease and gas up a Civic for about that much, or you could outright buy a Civic for about 300-350/mo and at least have a $12-15K car at the end. Or a Prius or Insight or whatever. Not worth it is an understatement.

Um, I don't know where you're getting your lease rates, but when I leased out a Civic Si at 23K, they were asking $423 a month.  Those $199 leases you see advertised on TV are all after a large cap cost reduction, which is insane on a lease. 

[Raza]

Speaking of the Prius I remember seeing one about a year ago one night at an intersection.  Right before the light changed I saw one of the passengers toss a cigarette butt out the window 

Smokers can't want better gas mileage?

[sportyaccordy]

Um, I don't know where you're getting your lease rates, but when I leased out a Civic Si at 23K, they were asking $423 a month.  Those $199 leases you see advertised on TV are all after a large cap cost reduction, which is insane on a lease. 

That's what I was going off of... my bad

$423 a month for a CSi is pretty ridic though... even for a 24 month lease, that means they think the car will be worth 13K only after 2 years, which is super low. $200-250 makes more sense given the Civic's low depreciation.

Still though you can finance a $20K Civic outright for like 350/mo if your credit is good, and of course at the end of 5 years you're left with a 10-13K car... whereas w/the Volt you have to deal with the paradox of not being able to charge the car in an urban setting, or not being able to drive the car because of its short range. Whole thing seems pointless

[Raza]

That's what I was going off of... my bad

$423 a month for a CSi is pretty ridic though... even for a 24 month lease, that means they think the car will be worth 13K only after 2 years, which is super low. $200-250 makes more sense given the Civic's low depreciation.

Still though you can finance a $20K Civic outright for like 350/mo if your credit is good, and of course at the end of 5 years you're left with a 10-13K car... whereas w/the Volt you have to deal with the paradox of not being able to charge the car in an urban setting, or not being able to drive the car because of its short range. Whole thing seems pointless

I'm not saying that the Civic isn't a better value proposition, just that it wasn't as cheap as you thought was.  (Didn't mean to sound like a dick in the first post, that's my bad)

Those $199 leases are usually subsidized by Honda (usually to clear out dealer lots for a new model year) and/or the result of insane down payments (which don't make sense on a lease anyway) and/or teaser rates on strippers to get you to buy a more expensive model.  I remember a local dealer was advertising $99/month Jetta leases.  Base model Jettas, no options but automatic, and $8,000 down.  That's nearly 50% upfront.  The $199 Civic leases aren't as insane, but I'd imagine they required down is somewhere around 20%.

[sportyaccordy]

I'm not saying that the Civic isn't a better value proposition, just that it wasn't as cheap as you thought was.  (Didn't mean to sound like a dick in the first post, that's my bad)

Those $199 leases are usually subsidized by Honda (usually to clear out dealer lots for a new model year) and/or the result of insane down payments (which don't make sense on a lease anyway) and/or teaser rates on strippers to get you to buy a more expensive model.  I remember a local dealer was advertising $99/month Jetta leases.  Base model Jettas, no options but automatic, and $8,000 down.  That's nearly 50% upfront.  The $199 Civic leases aren't as insane, but I'd imagine they required down is somewhere around 20%.

Damn they really make out like bandits with that then. I guess that's their duty

[2o6]

This lease will be comparable to a midsizer. I have seen that most non-outrageous leases of midsize cars are in the $300-375 a month range.

[Rich]

. whereas w/the Volt you have to deal with...... not being able to drive the car because of its short range.

For real?  Do you know anything about the Volt?

[MX793]

whereas w/the Volt you have to deal with the paradox of not being able to charge the car in an urban setting, or not being able to drive the car because of its short range. Whole thing seems pointless

The Volt is a gas/electric hybrid.  Your range is ultimately limited by when you run the fuel tank empty (I'm guessing after a couple of hundred miles) like any other car.  When the tank is empty, you can pull into the nearest fuel station and within 10 minutes be back on your way.  The "plug-in" charging simply provides an alternative charging method so you don't have to rely only on the gasoline engine to keep the batteries topped off as you do with a non-plug-in hybrid like the Prius (which may result in next to zero fuel consumption if all you do is short commuting), although you can certainly operate the car without ever using the plug-in capability.

[Raza]

The Volt is a gas/electric hybrid.  Your range is ultimately limited by when you run the fuel tank empty (I'm guessing after a couple of hundred miles) like any other car.  When the tank is empty, you can pull into the nearest fuel station and within 10 minutes be back on your way.  The "plug-in" charging simply provides an alternative charging method so you don't have to rely only on the gasoline engine to keep the batteries topped off as you do with a non-plug-in hybrid like the Prius (which may result in next to zero fuel consumption if all you do is short commuting), although you can certainly operate the car without ever using the plug-in capability.

And unlike the Prius, the gas engine only charges the battery.  It does not turn the wheels (unless the design has changed since I wrote a paper on it a couple years ago).

[hotrodalex]

And unlike the Prius, the gas engine only charges the battery.  It does not turn the wheels (unless the design has changed since I wrote a paper on it a couple years ago).

I heard it wasn't as cut and dry as that. I think it's pretty complicated how the IC engine works with the electric motor.

[2o6]

I heard it wasn't as cut and dry as that. I think it's pretty complicated how the IC engine works with the electric motor.

Basically, the only thing the IC engine does is charges the battery. It isn't connected to the drive wheels at all.


What else could it do?

[MX793]

I heard it wasn't as cut and dry as that. I think it's pretty complicated how the IC engine works with the electric motor.

The IC engine turns a generator, the generator powers the electric motor(s) (and charges the batteries with any surplus).  It's really not that complex.  At least not as mechanically complicated as Toyota's system where both the IC engine and the electric motor are mechanically tied to the drive wheels so that either may be directly acting on the drive wheels.

[goldenlover1101]

I gotta say the Volt is an exciting vehicle, at least for me. The technology behind it makes more sense than the pious and returns much better numbers. Yes the price is high, but $33,000 (after government tax rebates) is not extremely unreasonable for a car that under that can return 100+ mpg (from my understanding) and is packed with cutting edge technology. Will it be a hit? I am not sure! It depends on how they market and how the average sheeple perceives the Volt when compared with a Prius. I gotta say, I love the name!

[GoCougs]

Without extensive use of the plug-in feature the Volt probably won't get as good MPG as a regular ole hybrid. Without any reserve juice in the batteries the IC engine + generator + hybrid will be less efficient than a IC engine + hybrid. There is an efficiency loss in the generator + motor not present in a hybrid not running on batteries.

[goldenlover1101]

There is no point of purchasing it though unless you understand the system and know it will meet your needs. I think thats the case with all hybrids. If your commute is 1 hour of highway driving, a prius makes no sense. Same case with the Volt, and I think if it fits your commute you will be rewarded with amazing mpg. Could be wrong though. I gotta say, GM has some serious hype to live up to with this car.

[the Teuton]

Considering how they really don't share much (other than the 1.4T) you're wrong.

It's the same platform.

[2o6]

It's the same platform.

Not really. The car had to be altered (by a LOT) to accommodate those batteries.

[the Teuton]

Not really. The car had to be altered (by a LOT) to accommodate those batteries.

It's the same platform.

And it's a lot of money for a little bit of car when the Leaf will be $8k cheaper. This thing also needs premium gas to power its 80 hp 1.4 liter engine.

[2o6]

It's the same platform.

And it's a lot of money for a little bit of car when the Leaf will be $8k cheaper. This thing also needs premium gas to power its 80 hp 1.4 liter engine.

One: $7500 tax credit brings the Volt to roughly the same price as a Leaf, and the Leaf's range is smaller.


Two: Premium gas means nothing, most turbo motors need premium. (Except for that black magic Sonata, and I think that's grossly overrated or has serious longevity issues)

Three: Platform is not exactly the same as the Cruze.

[the Teuton]

One: Doesn't the Leaf qualify for the same credit?

Two: But the Sonata set the standard. The EcoBoost isn't too far behind, either. This smells like fail.

Three: Volt:Cruze::Lincoln LS:Ford Thunderbird

It's the same platform. It also will cost some $15k more than a loaded Cruze and seat one less person.

[hotrodalex]

The IC engine turns a generator, the generator powers the electric motor(s) (and charges the batteries with any surplus).  It's really not that complex.  At least not as mechanically complicated as Toyota's system where both the IC engine and the electric motor are mechanically tied to the drive wheels so that either may be directly acting on the drive wheels.

Nah, the explanation I heard was much more complicated. I can't remember what it was though, I'll have to find it.

edit: Haven't found anything saying anything different. Maybe I'm just imagining it.

It's the same platform.

And it's a lot of money for a little bit of car when the Leaf will be $8k cheaper. This thing also needs premium gas to power its 80 hp 1.4 liter engine.

The Leaf is also limited in its range. You can't take one on a cross-country trip without stopping for hours to charge the batteries. The Volt you can just pull into a gas station and go for another couple hundred miles.

[goldenlover1101]

One: Doesn't the Leaf qualify for the same credit?

Two: But the Sonata set the standard. The EcoBoost isn't too far behind, either. This smells like fail.

Three: Volt:Cruze::Lincoln LS:Ford Thunderbird

It's the same platform. It also will cost some $15k more than a loaded Cruze and seat one less person.

Yes the leaf is eligible for the asme tax credit bringing its price down to about 25k. I am not sure the Sonata and Ecoboost are exact comparisons for these cars, more the Prius and Insight are the closest competition, and these more start a new class as "Primarily Electric Vehicles". Put the same technology in a Sonata or Ford and lets see what they sell for. These cars are ideal for their designated market.

And also, the Volt has the Leaf beat right now in everyday usability with our limited electric refilling infrastructure since it has an IC to recharge the battery thus having an indefinite range.

Questions: Are they going to measure mpg per the same EPA tests because won't these both read infinite (I think the EPA loop is something like 60 miles - Could be wrong though)

[Rich]

One: $7500 tax credit brings the Volt to roughly the same price as a Leaf, and the Leaf's range is smaller.


Two: Premium gas means nothing, most turbo motors need premium. (Except for that black magic Sonata, and I think that's grossly overrated or has serious longevity issues)

Three: Platform is not exactly the same as the Cruze.

The Volt 1.4 does not have a turbo

[Laconian]

Not to mention the other, hidden costs of the Volt - the taxpayer money used to subsidize its R&D.

[2o6]

I don't understand why the Volt's gas motor is so pathetic........I was under the impression it was using the Atkinson cycle.

Not to mention the other, hidden costs of the Volt - the taxpayer money used to subsidize its R&D.

That's a whole 'nother semi-unrelated issue.

[hotrodalex]

I don't understand why the Volt's gas motor is so pathetic........I was under the impression it was using the Atkinson cycle.




That's a whole 'nother semi-unrelated issue.

It doesn't need to be a super-duper performer. Just gotta run a generator. No need for it to be too advanced as that will just drive up the cost.

[2o6]

It doesn't need to be a super-duper performer. Just gotta run a generator. No need for it to be too advanced as that will just drive up the cost.

1.4L, premium fuel, and only 71HP?


The 1.2L in the Spark produces 81HP......

[Laconian]

I don't understand why the Volt's gas motor is so pathetic........I was under the impression it was using the Atkinson cycle.

It might not be as pathetic as you think. HP figures for standard cars are measured at peak HP which is typically at high RPMs. Those engines might produce more impressive numbers but they spend a fraction of their life making 100% of their on-paper power. The Volt, on the other hand, will probably maintain engine RPMs within a fairly narrow range of operating speeds, and so the power number probably reflects that.

[2o6]

It might not be as pathetic as you think. HP figures for standard cars are measured at peak HP which is typically at high RPMs. Those engines might produce more impressive numbers but they spend a fraction of their life making 100% of their on-paper power. The Volt, on the other hand, will probably maintain engine RPMs within a fairly narrow range of operating speeds, and so the power number probably reflects that.

That seems like it would be better suited for a diesel.

[goldenlover1101]

That seems like it would be better suited for a diesel.

Agreed, but we Americans have an unreasonable aversion to diesels