GM?s Volt priced for the average family

[Laconian]

That seems like it would be better suited for a diesel.

Whoa there, the Volt is expensive enough as is, we don't want it costing $50k!

[MrH]

One: $7500 tax credit brings the Volt to roughly the same price as a Leaf, and the Leaf's range is smaller.


Two: Premium gas means nothing, most turbo motors need premium. (Except for that black magic Sonata, and I think that's grossly overrated or has serious longevity issues)

Three: Platform is not exactly the same as the Cruze.

1.  The Leaf gets the same tax credit.

2. How is it grossly overrated?  And what serious longevity issues do you see that Hyundai is somehow overlooking...?

3.  How is it different?

[2o6]

3.  How is it different?

IIRC, GM was touting the E-flex as a separate platform (which has Cruze roots) most notably because of the accommodation the car has to make for the T-shaped battery pack.

[GoCougs]

Not to mention the other, hidden costs of the Volt - the taxpayer money used to subsidize its R&D.

+ cost sucking juice off the grid + cost installing outlets all over Kingdom come.

[Rupert]

1.4L, premium fuel, and only 71HP?


The 1.2L in the Spark produces 81HP......

My MG is 1.8 L, and it made 60ish bhp when new. It's an improvement!

[2o6]

My MG is 1.8 L, and it made 60ish bhp when new. It's an improvement!

It's not 1962.

[Laconian]

I'd say that taking a platform and mangling it to accommodate battery packs would probably yield a worse driving result than the original. So it's a sub-Cruze.

[GoCougs]

That seems like it would be better suited for a diesel.

Yes, probably, but a diesel would add expense, complexity and a bit of weight WRT a gasoline engine.

[2o6]

Yes, probably, but a diesel would add expense, complexity and a bit of weight WRT a gasoline engine.

A tiny little 1.0L diesel? They could likely use one from a base Opel Corsa or Aglia.

[Mustangfan2003]

Or brought back the diesel engine from the Chevette 

[Rupert]

It's not 1962.

And yet my car can still keep up fine in traffic.

[MX793]

I don't understand why the Volt's gas motor is so pathetic........I was under the impression it was using the Atkinson cycle.

Atkinson engines are more efficient but less power than comparable Otto cycle engines, so it may be an Atkinson cycle engine.  The 1.8L in the Prius, which is an Atkinson, makes only 98 hp.

[sportyaccordy]

The Volt is a gas/electric hybrid.  Your range is ultimately limited by when you run the fuel tank empty (I'm guessing after a couple of hundred miles) like any other car.  When the tank is empty, you can pull into the nearest fuel station and within 10 minutes be back on your way.  The "plug-in" charging simply provides an alternative charging method so you don't have to rely only on the gasoline engine to keep the batteries topped off as you do with a non-plug-in hybrid like the Prius (which may result in next to zero fuel consumption if all you do is short commuting), although you can certainly operate the car without ever using the plug-in capability.

Ah I forgot it had a gas motor. Even still like Cougs said, I don't see how it would be more gas efficient to use the gas to power up the generator than to just use gas to move the car. With each additional step is another loss in efficiency. How big is the gas tank, and what's the range on gas?

[2o6]

Atkinson engines are more efficient but less power than comparable Otto cycle engines, so it may be an Atkinson cycle engine.  The 1.8L in the Prius, which is an Atkinson, makes only 98 hp.

It uses the Otto cycle.....

[hotrodalex]

I don't really care about the engine in it. Stick some hamsters in there and feed 'em pellets every day instead of gas. It won't make a difference. It's only running a generator to charge the battery. The electric motor is the one I care about since that's the one that will be propelling the car.

[Byteme]

It's the same platform.

And it's a lot of money for a little bit of car when the Leaf will be $8k cheaper. This thing also needs premium gas to power its 80 hp 1.4 liter engine.

So let say one depleted the battery charge to the point that the gasoline motor starts buring it's premium fuel to power the onboard generator. What kind of MPG will the car be getting when the generator is running?  And what will the performance be when driving on the batteries that are being charged by the generator? 

[Byteme]

I don't really care about the engine in it. Stick some hamsters in there and feed 'em pellets every day instead of gas. It won't make a difference. It's only running a generator to charge the battery. The electric motor is the one I care about since that's the one that will be propelling the car.

But it can only propel it based on what he batteries can deliver and the batteries are being charged by an 80 HP motor.  I don't claim to be an engineer but it seems to me it would be impossible to get more than 80 HP worth of performance out of the batteries once they are depleted and then being charged by the generator while driving.

[Byteme]

I just found the Volt's gas tank is 9 gallons of premium.  And GM has claimed a range of 340 miles after the battery is depleted in the first 40 miles.  So total range of 380 miles.  If I did the math right that works out to about 37.77 MPG when the generator engine is running.  Say premium is $3.00 a gallon and it takes a buck to charge the batteries for the fiorst part of the trip.  So, $28 to go 380 miles or about 7.37 cents per mile for fuel costs.  I can easily go 380 miles of city-highway driving in my Mazda 3 using about 12.7 gallon of regular at about $2.80 a gallon for a total fuel cost of $35.56; a difference of $7.56 every time I fill up.  If I drive 12,000 miles a year that comes out to about 32 fillups for  a savings of $242 a year.   Compare that to the added cost and complexity of the Volt, the hassle of charging the thing, the added purchase price, and the probable teething problems of a new vehicle using a new technology and I don't see any advantage to buying a Volt. 

Trunk: About 10 cubic feet.

0-60: 8.5 to 9.0 seconds with full battery charge.  That's another thing.  With a gasoline powered car I get the same energy in the first gallon of the tank as the last (actually performance improves as fuel is burned becasue the car is lighter).   With an electric the performance drops off as the charge is depleted. 

[GoCougs]

A tiny little 1.0L diesel? They could likely use one from a base Opel Corsa or Aglia.

Uh, yes.

[ifcar]

I just found the Volt's gas tank is 9 gallons of premium.  And GM has claimed a range of 340 miles after the battery is depleted in the first 40 miles.  So total range of 380 miles.  If I did the math right that works out to about 37.77 MPG when the generator engine is running.  Say premium is $3.00 a gallon and it takes a buck to charge the batteries for the fiorst part of the trip.  So, $28 to go 380 miles or about 7.37 cents per mile for fuel costs.  I can easily go 380 miles of city-highway driving in my Mazda 3 using about 12.7 gallon of regular at about $2.80 a gallon for a total fuel cost of $35.56; a difference of $7.56 every time I fill up.  If I drive 12,000 miles a year that comes out to about 32 fillups for  a savings of $242 a year.   Compare that to the added cost and complexity of the Volt, the hassle of charging the thing, the added purchase price, and the probable teething problems of a new vehicle using a new technology and I don't see any advantage to buying a Volt.

If you plan to drive without charging, yes, there's very little advantage. But why would you do that? The gas is a backup for occasional use -- if your driving demands more 380-mile trips between charges, then you're not a Volt target customer.

0-60: 8.5 to 9.0 seconds with full battery charge.  That's another thing.  With a gasoline powered car I get the same energy in the first gallon of the tank as the last (actually performance improves as fuel is burned becasue the car is lighter).   With an electric the performance drops off as the charge is depleted.  

Are you sure that's accurate? My computer doesn't work any slower as its charge goes down, and the gas engine recharges the electric motor once it hits a certain point.

[mzziaz]

i like the Volt, but I dislike that it only seats 4

[the Teuton]

So let say one depleted the battery charge to the point that the gasoline motor starts buring it's premium fuel to power the onboard generator. What kind of MPG will the car be getting when the generator is running?  And what will the performance be when driving on the batteries that are being charged by the generator? 

I'll concede that point. We do place too high of a regard on what kind of fuel a car takes, especially since premium is only 20 cents more per gallon. But you have to agree that there is a huge stigma about it.

[MX793]

Without extensive use of the plug-in feature the Volt probably won't get as good MPG as a regular ole hybrid. Without any reserve juice in the batteries the IC engine + generator + hybrid will be less efficient than a IC engine + hybrid. There is an efficiency loss in the generator + motor not present in a hybrid not running on batteries.

Toyota's "Synergy Drive" system requires that electric motor be providing torque even when you're running on the gas engine.  It's an integral part of what makes the CVT gearbox work.  So even when running on the gas engine, some of the engine's power is being used to provide electrical power to the electric motor so that the CVT can work properly, plus power being diverted to keep the batteries charged.  Meaning that the engine is pulling double duty as both a generator and a propulsion device, and experiencing inefficiencies of both.  Then you have all of the added gear losses through the planetary gearset.  I'm really not sure that the Volt's system would be that much less efficient than Toyota's.

[2o6]

I thought the Volt used a 1-speed direct drive? (It IS an electric car, after all)

[MX793]

I thought the Volt used a 1-speed direct drive? (It IS an electric car, after all)

I'm not sure what it's got for a gearbox.  Tesla uses a 2-speed in their roadster, but it's possible that GM is only using a single speed.

[sportyaccordy]

If you plan to drive without charging, yes, there's very little advantage. But why would you do that? The gas is a backup for occasional use -- if your driving demands more 380-mile trips between charges, then you're not a Volt target customer.

If the battery's range on a full charge is only 40 miles, the avg American driver will have to fuel this thing up quite a bit.

[thinking out loud]
I'm curious to know how much energy it takes to give the batteries a full charge from being totally depleted. 9 gallons of gas has 1.125 MMBTU of energy. Only ~30% of that would get to the generator, so 337.5 MBTU = 340 miles, or ~1MBTU/mile at the motor. So the battery only holds about 40MBTU, or 11kWh. 1kWh for all intents + purposes costs about $0.16 so on the electric side travel is pretty cheap.... if your commute is less than 40 miles each way AND you can charge your car both at home and at work the Volt MIGHT work for you.

But if you can't charge your car at work (a reasonable stipulation) you have to limit your commute to under 20 miles each way. Outside of that your MPG will range from infinity to at best the 28 MPG... and that's in ideal situations. If you're traveling, for instance, with 3 other people + whatever luggage the Volt can carry and using A/C or heating (electric heating!!!), I imagine the range drops off significantly- to the point that it might even make sense to own another car or rent a bigger + conventional car for such trips.....
[/thinking out loud]

So logistically the Volt is not that great.... its fuel efficiency is no better than a Camry once you fall outside the charge range, and its charge range is pretty damn small in ideal conditions. AND it costs enough that the only way the public will consider it is with heavy gov't subsidy. Seems like a fail to me

Comes back to the paradox I mentioned earlier... in an urban environment there's nowhere to charge the car... and in a suburban environment commuting distances are far enough to bring the feasibility of said car into question... can't have thousands of these things charging at 3 PM on a hot summer day either, grids are already taxed to the max. The more I think about it the less sense it makes.

[2o6]

I'm not sure what it's got for a gearbox.  Tesla uses a 2-speed in their roadster, but it's possible that GM is only using a single speed.

Tesla uses a 1-speed.

[GoCougs]

Toyota's "Synergy Drive" system requires that electric motor be providing torque even when you're running on the gas engine.  It's an integral part of what makes the CVT gearbox work.  So even when running on the gas engine, some of the engine's power is being used to provide electrical power to the electric motor so that the CVT can work properly, plus power being diverted to keep the batteries charged.  Then you have all of the added gear losses through the planetary gearset.  I'm really not sure that the Volt's system would be that much less efficient than Toyota's.

An electric motor is generally less efficient than a planetary gear set and the Prius has a much smaller electric motor.

[the Teuton]

Tesla uses a 1-speed.

Tesla now uses a 1-speed in its sport model. It used a 2-speed.

[MX793]

Tesla uses a 1-speed.

Then they changed it.  Early examples used a 2-speed.