Marijuana

[Colonel Cadillac]

So policemen, what do you think about it?

[dazzleman]

We know what your mother thinks about it.....

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

 

[Raza]

Should be legal.  So should coke, heroin, and all prescription drug restrictions should be lifted as well.  Of course, DUI should be modified to account for driving while under the influence of these drugs.  I should be allowed to do whatever I want to myself as long as it endangers no one else or violates their rights.  Simple as that. 

[bing_oh]

Pointless argument. Wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot cattle prod.

[CALL_911]

Pointless argument. Wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot cattle prod.

What, the legalization of marijuana is a pointless argument?

You're going to have to explain that one to me.

[Submariner]

Should be legal.  So should coke, heroin, and all prescription drug restrictions should be lifted as well.  Of course, DUI should be modified to account for driving while under the influence of these drugs.  I should be allowed to do whatever I want to myself as long as it endangers no one else or violates their rights.  Simple as that. 

Not so sure about Heroin, PCP, etc but weed, yes, coke, yes, I'll even say acid should be legal. 

[bing_oh]

What, the legalization of marijuana is a pointless argument?

You're going to have to explain that one to me.

Have you ever gotten into a marijuana legalization argument on the internet? The pros remain pro, the cons remain con, and the thread eventually degrades until locked. It's alot like arguing about abortion. As the WOPR said in WarGames..."The only winning move is not to play."

[Raza]

Not so sure about Heroin, PCP, etc but weed, yes, coke, yes, I'll even say acid should be legal. 

Why not?  If you do it in a way that harms no one else, I see no reason in it at all.  Laws shouldn't be in place to protect you from yourself. 

[bing_oh]

Why not?  If you do it in a way that harms no one else, I see no reason in it at all.  Laws shouldn't be in place to protect you from yourself.

Obviously you've never delt with someone under the influence of heroin, LSD, PCP, crack, etc...

[Raza]

Obviously you've never delt with someone under the influence of heroin, LSD, PCP, crack, etc...

Clearly.

But at that point, are they breaking other laws?  If so, why do the drugs even come into play?  Why should I, a normally somewhat peaceable man, not be allowed to shoot heroin in my own home to relax on a Friday night?  If I break other laws, then I see the case for arresting me, but at that point, what grievous crime have I committed?  What's the difference between a shooter of heroin and a half bottle of Scotch if I'm not bothering anyone?

Mind you, I understand the practical implications of the legality and illegality of what are currently illicit drugs, and what potential issues may come with the changing of the status, but on a philosophical level I highly object to their status as illegal drugs. 

[Laconian]

Obviously you've never delt with someone under the influence of heroin, LSD, PCP, crack, etc...

Can you rank the unpleasantness based on the drug?

[BENZ BOY15]

Have you ever gotten into a marijuana legalization argument on the internet? The pros remain pro, the cons remain con, and the thread eventually degrades until locked. It's alot like arguing about abortion. As the WOPR said in WarGames..."The only winning move is not to play."

You can say that for anything. I don't really get that argument.

We know what your mother thinks about it.....

[dazzleman]

Have you ever gotten into a marijuana legalization argument on the internet? The pros remain pro, the cons remain con, and the thread eventually degrades until locked. It's alot like arguing about abortion. As the WOPR said in WarGames..."The only winning move is not to play."

[CALL_911]

Have you ever gotten into a marijuana legalization argument on the internet? The pros remain pro, the cons remain con, and the thread eventually degrades until locked. It's alot like arguing about abortion. As the WOPR said in WarGames..."The only winning move is not to play."

Oh, I was under the impression that you were saying that it's not even worth considering legalizing marijuana.

Yeah, you're right. That's the case for pretty much all political/religious debates too.

[dazzleman]

Oh, I was under the impression that you were saying that it's not even worth considering legalizing marijuana.

Yeah, you're right. That's the case for pretty much all political/religious debates too.

Some subjects are worse than others.

[RomanChariot]

Should be legal.  So should coke, heroin, and all prescription drug restrictions should be lifted as well.  Of course, DUI should be modified to account for driving while under the influence of these drugs.  I should be allowed to do whatever I want to myself as long as it endangers no one else or violates their rights.  Simple as that.  

I think that the major factor in determining which drugs should be legal is the societal impact that they have and is society willing to cover those costs.  We deal with the problems of drinking and driving when people choose not to be responsible because society has decided it is willing to cover those costs.  Although Raza talks about responsible use behind closed doors that is often not the case.  Meth users ignore their children and commit crimes to support their habit.  Legalizing meth won't solve the crime problem because meth users can't hold down a job so the only way they get what they want is through criminal conduct.  Society has decided that the costs of meth use are too high.

Unfortunately, people that are responsible when they are sober tend to make really bad decision when they aren't.

[dazzleman]

I think that the major factor in determining which drugs should be legal is the societal impact that they have and is society willing to cover those costs.  We deal with the problems of drinking and driving when people choose not to be responsible because society has decided it is willing to cover those costs.  Although Raza talks about responsible use behind closed doors that is often not the case.  Meth users ignore their children and commit crimes to support their habit.  Legalizing meth won't solve the crime problem because meth users can't hold down a job so the only way they get what they want is through criminal conduct.  Society has decided that the costs of meth use are too high.

Unfortunately, people that are responsible when they are sober tend to make really bad decision when they aren't.

Yes, that's the reality of it.  Raza's theory is a fine one, but it just doesn't play out that way in reality.

[bing_oh]

Yes, that's the reality of it.  Raza's theory is a fine one, but it just doesn't play out that way in reality.

Exactly so. Theoretical "freedoms" tend to crash headfirst into the brick wall of reality when we're talking about the real world. It's very nice for Raza to believe that people should theoretically have the freedom to use PCP in the sanctity of their own homes, but it's a very different scenario when that same person is hallucinating, stripped naked, standing in the middle of the street, wielding a butcher knife, and oblivious to pain because of the effects of that same PCP.

[bing_oh]

Can you rank the unpleasantness based on the drug?

When you get into harder drugs, it's not really a matter of ranking them by unpleasantless but rather by your favorite nasty effects.

[Raza]

Yeah, no one has ever done something stupid while drunk, so I can see your argument. 

[bing_oh]

Yeah, no one has ever done something stupid while drunk, so I can see your argument.

Are you really comparing the normal effects of alcohol to the normal effects of PCP? Seriously? That's not even a logical argument.

[BENZ BOY15]

Marijuana is one thing, PCP is another.

[SVT_Power]

I don't know if I'd go as far as Raza, but I'm on that side of this argument.

Drinking in public is illegal (other than in licensed establishments). Being under the influence and doing stupid shit in public is illegal. Driving under the influence is illegal. Yet it's perfectly legal for for you to consume it at home and be incapacitated if you want. So you should be allowed to do drugs at your own risk as well.

[RomanChariot]

Yeah, no one has ever done something stupid while drunk, so I can see your argument. 

I don't think pointing out the fact that drinking makes people stupid is a good argument for legalizing drugs.

[Raza]

Are you really comparing the normal effects of alcohol to the normal effects of PCP? Seriously? That's not even a logical argument.

It's odd the metrics we use.  Alcohol is bad, but not that bad, so it's okay.  PCP is bad, so ignoring your rights to do whatever you'd like to yourself, we'll make it not okay. 

One thing that must be addressed in these type of arguments is what will actually change with legalization.  If you make it legal, are millions of Americans with steady jobs going to skip work tomorrow, start using PCP, and then start knifing each other nude in the streets?  What will actually change?  And if the answer is nothing, and it begs the question "Then why make the change at all?", the answer to that would be "because the rights of the individual should not be suppressed."  I'm not looking for a full on PCP section in my 7-11; perhaps just a decriminalization, so users are able to get the rehabilitation they need instead of getting thrown into the system. 

Even if we stick to the topic at hand, and stick with the current metrics.  Bad, but not that bad.  Wouldn't marijuana fall into that category?  When was the last time someone went psychotic after smoking marijuana? 

[Raza]

I don't think pointing out the fact that drinking makes people stupid is a good argument for legalizing drugs.

One drug that can ruin your life is legal.
One drug that can ruin your life is illegal.

I think it's absolutely germane. 

[Raza]

Marijuana is one thing, PCP is another.

No, it is not.  Not if you don't accept that it's okay for the government to tell you what you can do to your own body. 

[Raza]

I think that the major factor in determining which drugs should be legal is the societal impact that they have and is society willing to cover those costs.  We deal with the problems of drinking and driving when people choose not to be responsible because society has decided it is willing to cover those costs.  Although Raza talks about responsible use behind closed doors that is often not the case.  Meth users ignore their children and commit crimes to support their habit.  Legalizing meth won't solve the crime problem because meth users can't hold down a job so the only way they get what they want is through criminal conduct.  Society has decided that the costs of meth use are too high.

Unfortunately, people that are responsible when they are sober tend to make really bad decision when they aren't.

How is it the same people who would complain about money spent on public programs happily restrict personal freedoms for the greater good?  Don't you see how incongruous these positions are? 

And don't you see that neglecting your children (child abuse) and robbery/theft/burglary are all already legal?  Why is the reason a person commits a crime important?  If you break into a house and steal a DVD player so you can watch DVDs, does that make it better than breaking into a house and stealing a DVD player to fund a meth habit? 

Legalizing meth won't solve the crime problem.  Legalizing meth won't cause a crime problem either.  I don't see why this is an issue. 

[hotrodalex]

To inject another perspective into the argument:

By legalizing drugs that can ruin your life, some might say that the government is allowing the behaviors associated with it. Since meth can cause crime, the government must be saying crime is okay if meth is okay.

Plus, it can be hard work to produce illegal drugs which can keep people away from it. If it's legal, the number of users is bound to go up. If a small number of users cause problems, imagine if 3-4 times as many users cause the same number of problems-per-user. Seems like a police officer's worst nightmare.

I'm not saying all of that is true, it's just a way to look at it.