A thread for Vinsanity!

[cawimmer430]

That is what rohan and I are saying, and what I've been trying to allude to in the other thread. If you have something like a boat or caravan that needs to be towed, why not use a vehicle more suited to the task?

Well, I've also mentioned that people here have their big SUVs to tow their bigger boats. But they also use cars like the GL320 CDI and ML280 CDI/ML320(350) CDI or X5 3.0d's for such tasks. Not gas-guzzling V8s.

[cawimmer430]

I don't remember saying that. I do remember saying something to the effect that we prefer to use more capable vehicles to tow things.

I might have misunderstood. 

They do. According to the link I posted, the tow ratings are as follows:

Mercedes ML: 7200 lbs (all models)
BMW X5: 6000 lbs
Audi Q7: 5500 lbs
VW Touareg: 7716 lbs

The massive Audi Q7 can tow so little lbs! And I don't even see the ML and X5 as a rival to the Q7. BMW has nothing on the Q7 while MB has the GL.

[Vinsanity]

I might have misunderstood.  

no worries

I do agree with you and Nomis that some of the larger diesel motors available in the European cars would be well-suited for us, but somehow, the ML320 CDI has the same tow rating as the ML350.

The massive Audi Q7 can tow so little lbs! And I don't even see the ML and X5 as a rival to the Q7. BMW has nothing on the Q7 while MB has the GL.

yeah, I was surprised at that, as well. Don't the Q7 and the Touareg share the same architecture? Maybe the Q7's quattro is more handling-oriented (and delicate), while the Touareg's 4motion is geared more for heavy-duty tasks.

[NomisR]

no worries

I do agree with you and Nomis that some of the larger diesel motors available in the European cars would be well-suited for us, but somehow, the ML320 CDI has the same tow rating as the ML350.

I didn't look at the #, but wouldn't the CDI be more fuel efficient though?

[2o6]

You can install a tow hook on any car.  The Pontiac Bonneville across the street has a hitch (opening).

Is it "normal" for Americans to use minivans to tow things?

Yes, somewhat. They are actually rather capable, but since they're FWD they aren't as good at it. Seems like the RWD, BOF Astro or the Ford E-series are more popular towing vans (around here, at least).

You'd be surprised what a Passat TDI can tow. It wouldn't surprise me if it could tow a trailer with a medium-sized boat on it. It might not be good for the car since it wasn't designed to do this, but it's definitely possible. Now, a really big boat, might be possible to, but definitely will put a lot of stress on the frame etc.

That's strain on all components. Not only that, you will probably never get out of 3rd, and the fuel economy will suck since you'll be thrashing the engine all the time.

[rohan]

I do agree with you and Nomis that some of the larger diesel motors available in the European cars would be well-suited for us, but somehow, the ML320 CDI has the same tow rating as the ML350.

transmissions.  They win the tow wars.

[Vinsanity]

I didn't look at the #, but wouldn't the CDI be more fuel efficient though?

Most likely, especially for towing. I haven't bothered to look up the # either, but I wonder what the difference in torque is between the diesel and petrol engines for the M-class.

[CJ]

That's most likely because Americans don't use their luxury cars for towing - Europeans do.

Take a trip to these parts and you'll see Escalades, Range Rovers, Land Rovers, X5s, ML/GLs, etc. towing.  I see quite a good bit of it in Oklahoma, more in Texas.  (For the record, I live in Oklahoma now.  Going to school here.)

[NomisR]

I was looking at the ML350 vs ML350BluTec

And Torque is 258 vs 400 ft/lb
Fuel Economy is 16/20 vs 18/25

Towing is 4600lb vs 7200lb

For towing, it seems like Diesel is the best choice... so why not?

[Vinsanity]

wow, I must've missed that they came out with a bigger Bluetec engine; I did notice that the charts in my link are only as of 2009.

For towing, yeah, the diesel is the obvious choice, but to be fair, I don't think there are too many people buying Benzes to tow things with. Most likely, they're going to buy some kind of luxury sedan to drive around in, and a 1/2-ton pickup to use as a tow vehicle.

[Galaxy]

That's a pretty small boat.  




I doubt that Passat could tow that boat and its trailer.  

The Passat can pull 3 527lbs. So it should be able to tow that boat even if it's at the upper edge. Keep in mind that sail boats are heavier then they appear because of the ballast.


Edit: The Passat 4Motion V6 can pull 4 850lbs, and the 4Motion 140hp TDI 4 629lbs.

[NomisR]

wow, I must've missed that they came out with a bigger Bluetec engine; I did notice that the charts in my link are only as of 2009.

For towing, yeah, the diesel is the obvious choice, but to be fair, I don't think there are too many people buying Benzes to tow things with. Most likely, they're going to buy some kind of luxury sedan to drive around in, and a 1/2-ton pickup to use as a tow vehicle.

Surprisingly, American's desire to tow and put heavy stuff in their truck.. I don't see any diesel option for the most common trucks I see on the streets.  What's the deal? 

You get towing and economy... should be a no brainer.

[Vinsanity]

Surprisingly, American's desire to tow and put heavy stuff in their truck.. I don't see any diesel option for the most common trucks I see on the streets.  What's the deal? 

You get towing and economy... should be a no brainer.

I agree that they should offer more diesel options in 1/2-ton pickups. But IIRC, diesel truck engines are pricey options, and in addition, I think the main reason they don't offer it is to make buyers step up to the 3/4-ton chassis trucks (2500's) if they want the diesel.

[BimmerM3]

That's a pretty small boat. 




I doubt that Passat could tow that boat and its trailer. 

Even that, while a great boat, is relatively small.

[68_427]

I want a sea doo.



510hp... nice! :



also 510hp... dayum:

[cawimmer430]

I do agree with you and Nomis that some of the larger diesel motors available in the European cars would be well-suited for us, but somehow, the ML320 CDI has the same tow rating as the ML350.

The ML320 CDI is the better car to me than the ML350. I once had to drive the new ML350 from M?hldorf to Landshut when I had a summer job at MB. That's about an hours worth of driving. I drove the ML350 pretty normally and was amazed at how much fuel it needed. You could literally see the fuel clock move down. I don't even want to know what an ML500 or ML63 AMG consumes...

A week later I had the ML320 CDI - and that thing was very economical. I don't care about performance (0-60 etc.) in an SUV but fuel economy and the ML320 CDI combined efficiency with good performance. To me it's the ideal M-Class. There's also an ML420 CDI (V8) available but that's overkill and it's not really that much faster (and certainly not as efficient) as the ML320 CDI. The ML320 CDI is now called ML350 CDI (new engine).

yeah, I was surprised at that, as well. Don't the Q7 and the Touareg share the same architecture? Maybe the Q7's quattro is more handling-oriented (and delicate), while the Touareg's 4motion is geared more for heavy-duty tasks.

The Q7 might actually be limited to towing so little because it's already an extremely heavy and porky car. Towing something to heavy might stress an already "overstressed frame" perhaps. The Touareg appears to be lighter and thus can tow more. I'm guessing that's the situation here.

[cawimmer430]

I didn't look at the #, but wouldn't the CDI be more fuel efficient though?

Definitely.

Low-end torque and cruising speeds are where diesels shine. The low-end grunt should aid acceleration (and fuel economy).

Here are the Euro ML300 CDI and ML350 CDI. The V8 diesel has been taken out of the program because of low sales.


ML300 CDI: 2987cc V6 CDI / 204-hp / 0-100 km/h = 8.3 seconds / Urban: 23.5 mpg / Rural: 33.6 mpg / Total: 29.4 mpg

ML350 CDI: 2987cc V6 CDI / 231-hp / 0-100 km/h = 7.6 seconds / Urban: 21.3 mpg / Rural: 33.6 mpg / Total: 29.4 mpg

[cawimmer430]

That's strain on all components. Not only that, you will probably never get out of 3rd, and the fuel economy will suck since you'll be thrashing the engine all the time.

Definitely this will place a strain on all components.

But it's doable but not recommendable.

[MaxPower]

I live in the northeast, where every third car is a Subaru.  You see a lot with hitches.

Things I've towed with the Tacoma include dirt, hay, and small tractors.  When I hauled horses I used a full size truck because I don't have an ultralight horse trailer.  You could use a car + light trailer for most of that stuff but I'd have to make a lot more trips!

[ChrisV]

Know why caravanners in Europe have such a crappy reputation for blocking traffic? They use the wrong damn cars to tow stuff with. Jesus in half the cars there, you notice it in accelleration, handling AND braking if you're carrying two more people in the backseat, and you think it's ok to plop 3500lbs on the ass of it and it'll be fine?

Half ton trucks here use gas becaeu it's clener, less noisy, and cheaper to buy for 90% of the use they get used for. Heavy towing IS done by 2500/3500 sereis trucks with diesels. Why do we tow heavy stuff? Becaeu we can. Americans love traveling and lesiure. We don't live in tiny little countries. We live in a nation as large as most of Europe combined. Do you see those European towers you pictured taking that stuff through the mountain passes in the Alps often? We have stuff that's capable of crossing the Rockies. You may not use it daily, but if you want to head across country one summer, you can do it with your normal tow rig.

Our cars also don't cost a ton to insure and register, so it's easier to buy a pickup for towing and not use it often than it might be in Europe. It's also cheaper to buy a pickup for towing and use it for daily use at the same time. Trust me, if many Europeans could buy a half ton truck for the same price as an economy sedan, and not get taxed on it or pay exorbitant feul costs, they'd use them to tow just as often as we do. Funny how so many Europeans come to the US and do exactly that.

[Cookie Monster]

Know why caravanners in Europe have such a crappy reputation for blocking traffic? They use the wrong damn cars to tow stuff with. Jesus in half the cars there, you notice it in accelleration, handling AND braking if you're carrying two more people in the backseat, and you think it's ok to plop 3500lbs on the ass of it and it'll be fine?

Half ton trucks here use gas becaeu it's clener, less noisy, and cheaper to buy for 90% of the use they get used for. Heavy towing IS done by 2500/3500 sereis trucks with diesels. Why do we tow heavy stuff? Becaeu we can. Americans love traveling and lesiure. We don't live in tiny little countries. We live in a nation as large as most of Europe combined. Do you see those European towers you pictured taking that stuff through the mountain passes in the Alps often? We have stuff that's capable of crossing the Rockies. You may not use it daily, but if you want to head across country one summer, you can do it with your normal tow rig.

Our cars also don't cost a ton to insure and register, so it's easier to buy a pickup for towing and not use it often than it might be in Europe. It's also cheaper to buy a pickup for towing and use it for daily use at the same time. Trust me, if many Europeans could buy a half ton truck for the same price as an economy sedan, and not get taxed on it or pay exorbitant feul costs, they'd use them to tow just as often as we do. Funny how so many Europeans come to the US and do exactly that.

Maybe Top Gear wouldn't hate caravanning so much if Europeans used trucks!

[Vinsanity]

Definitely this will place a strain on all components.

But it's doable but not recommendable.

I believe that was my original point.

[Galaxy]

The regulation issue has not been mentioned.

In Europe (Germany, but I think this is standardized across the EU), a vehicle is generally only allowed to tow at max 80km/h (49.7mph). There are several exceptions that allow you to tow at 100km/h (62mph), or 120km/h (74.5mph) if the towing vehicle does not have a max weight greater then 3500kg (7716lbs), nor the trailer.

You may tow at 100km/h if:

-the towing vehicle has ABS and the weight of the trailer is ≤ 0,3 x the empy weight of the towing vehicle.

- the towing vehicle has ABS, and the RV trailer has brakes and hydraulic dampeners if the weight of thr trailer is  ≤ 0,8 x the empty weight of the towing vehicle. Or ≤ 1,0 x if the towing vehicle has a sway bar.

-the towing vehicle has ABS, and the (non RV) trailer has brakes and hydraulic dampeners, if the weight of the trailer is ≤ 1,1 x the empty weight of the towing vehicle. Or ≤ 1,2 x, if the towing vehicle has a sway bar.


You may tow at 120km/h if:

-the towing vehicle has ABS and an anti-sway bar and the RV trailer has brakes and hydraulic dampeners if the RV trailer is ≤ 1,0 x the empty weight of the towing vehicle.

-the towing vehicle has ABS and an anti-sway bar, and the (non RV) trailer has brakes and hydraulic dampeners, if the weight of the (non RV) trailer is ≤ 1,2 x the empty weight of the towing vehicle.


If you wish to tow more then 7716lbs, then the speed is limited to 80km/h plus the towing vehicle needs an eddy current brake on the crank shaft (I believe retarders as no longer allowed because of the noise) , plus an air pressure braking system. That regulation is what kills the HD RAM, F Series etc. You also need a different licence.


The EU is currently planning to overhaul the system to allow people to tow 4 xxxkg (8 8XXlbs) with the regular EU  drivers licence.

[NomisR]

Know why caravanners in Europe have such a crappy reputation for blocking traffic? They use the wrong damn cars to tow stuff with. Jesus in half the cars there, you notice it in accelleration, handling AND braking if you're carrying two more people in the backseat, and you think it's ok to plop 3500lbs on the ass of it and it'll be fine?

Half ton trucks here use gas becaeu it's clener, less noisy, and cheaper to buy for 90% of the use they get used for. Heavy towing IS done by 2500/3500 sereis trucks with diesels. Why do we tow heavy stuff? Becaeu we can. Americans love traveling and lesiure. We don't live in tiny little countries. We live in a nation as large as most of Europe combined. Do you see those European towers you pictured taking that stuff through the mountain passes in the Alps often? We have stuff that's capable of crossing the Rockies. You may not use it daily, but if you want to head across country one summer, you can do it with your normal tow rig.

Our cars also don't cost a ton to insure and register, so it's easier to buy a pickup for towing and not use it often than it might be in Europe. It's also cheaper to buy a pickup for towing and use it for daily use at the same time. Trust me, if many Europeans could buy a half ton truck for the same price as an economy sedan, and not get taxed on it or pay exorbitant feul costs, they'd use them to tow just as often as we do. Funny how so many Europeans come to the US and do exactly that.

Well, any trailers are slow even with a pickup.. but then again, what Americans tow are typically double the size of Europeans.

As for noise and cleaniness of the diesel though, I've noticed with the newer diesels in European cars, they're really not that loud and the smog sticker on the cars don't seem any worse than most gas power trucks.  The noise issue certainly isn't a problem anymore.

I guess cost is an issue but it still makes sense. 

[Vinsanity]

Well, any trailers are slow even with a pickup.. but then again, what Americans tow are typically double the size of Europeans.

As for noise and cleaniness of the diesel though, I've noticed with the newer diesels in European cars, they're really not that loud and the smog sticker on the cars don't seem any worse than most gas power trucks.  The noise issue certainly isn't a problem anymore.

I guess cost is an issue but it still makes sense. 

I know we don't get too many passenger car diesels in our parts, but I was walking behing an idling Jetta TDI wagon in a parking lot last weekend, and it still sounded kinda like an old diesel Benz, but from far away.

[NomisR]

I know we don't get too many passenger car diesels in our parts, but I was walking behing an idling Jetta TDI wagon in a parking lot last weekend, and it still sounded kinda like an old diesel Benz, but from far away.

I've been looking at the 335d recently.. it didn't really feel any different than petro cars unless you look at the Tach.  It's still quieter than a pickup truck with a v8.  And at 425ft/lb of torque at 1750 RPM, I think this would fit a pickup better than a V8 pickup engine. 

[Madman]

Proof you can tow a gooseneck camper trailer with a small car!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56XL0TysIn0&feature=related

[2o6]

Proof you can tow a gooseneck camper trailer with a small car!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56XL0TysIn0&feature=related

THAT IS UBER COOL.

[cawimmer430]

Know why caravanners in Europe have such a crappy reputation for blocking traffic? They use the wrong damn cars to tow stuff with. Jesus in half the cars there, you notice it in accelleration, handling AND braking if you're carrying two more people in the backseat, and you think it's ok to plop 3500lbs on the ass of it and it'll be fine?

As you can see from Galaxy's post, there are limitations to what we can tow with our cars and our license. With my license, I can drive a car that weighs a maximum of 3.5 tons. If I want to tow something, I need to do a formal test where I'll receive a new license that states I am qualified for towing something up to a certain weight (3.5 tons) with my car. For anything heavier than 3.5 tons, I need to do another test and obtain another license.

Trust me, if many Europeans could buy a half ton truck for the same price as an economy sedan, and not get taxed on it or pay exorbitant feul costs, they'd use them to tow just as often as we do. Funny how so many Europeans come to the US and do exactly that.

The Europeans who do that in the US probably do so because those are the only cars available for towing and because they want to give it a try.

As a whole, I firmly believe that the average European is more energy conscious than the average American. We have to be given how energy has its price here.

[ChrisV]

As you can see from Galaxy's post, there are limitations to what we can tow with our cars and our license. With my license, I can drive a car that weighs a maximum of 3.5 tons. If I want to tow something, I need to do a formal test where I'll receive a new license that states I am qualified for towing something up to a certain weight (3.5 tons) with my car. For anything heavier than 3.5 tons, I need to do another test and obtain another license.

So you guys tow with the wrong stuff 'cause you're too cheap to get a license to tow properly. I see.   

Funny how having a full load in the car makes it accelerate, handle and stop much worse, but you have no problem doubling the weight of the car putting a trailer on the back, huh? The proper solution is to use a vahicle that not only has the power to tow, which is easy, but also the suspension and brakes to stop both the loaded tow vehicle and a loaded trailer. Which is why I'm moving up from the Range Rover, which is maxed out near 7000 lbs tow capacity, to the 3500 sereis diesel dually that can easily triple that load. That way when I only have 7000-8000 lbs on teh back, it's barely working and well within it's safety margins, as well as able to flow with traffic not just on the flat and level but up and down hills/mountain passes.

The Europeans who do that in the US probably do so because those are the only cars available for towing and because they want to give it a try.

They do it because here they are finally free of stifling regulations and insane fuel/car taxation.

As a whole, I firmly believe that the average European is more energy conscious than the average American. We have to be given how energy has its price here.

So you're saying you're forced to be more energy conscious due to taxation by your governements. I wouldn't feel superior for that if I were you.