My comparison: midsize sedans

[the Teuton]

It's not that you notice it -- "omg, AWD is getting in my way again" -- but it's quietly draining your power and gas mileage. It's not AWD that's a problem, it's its inherent compromises. If you want an AWD car, the Legacy is fine; if you don't (and most people clearly don't), there's not enough left going for it to make it better than other midsize sedans.

That's like saying that the MazdaSpeed3 or WRX shouldn't exist because obviously people don't need or want that kind of power in a compact car, evidenced by unit sales. It's a cyclical argument. You cannot speak why someone decided for or against buying a Legacy instead of its FWD competitors. For all you know, some people may not even know Subie exists.

And at 23/31, the gas mileage "drain" argument is kinda weak.

[ifcar]

That's like saying that the MazdaSpeed3 or WRX shouldn't exist because obviously people don't need or want that kind of power in a compact car, evidenced by unit sales. It's a cyclical argument. You cannot speak why someone decided for or against buying a Legacy instead of its FWD competitors. For all you know, some people may not even know Subie exists.

And at 23/31, the gas mileage "drain" argument is kinda weak.

I didn't say they shouldn't exist. I didn't say the Legacy shouldn't exist. It serves a small subset of the market. And like the WRX and MazdaSpeed 3, if there was any significant interest in AWD, more automakers than Subaru and Ford would offer it in a midsize sedan.

Again, the reason it has good gas mileage is because Subaru went for mileage over performance, which is why the best front-drive competitors have better power and equal or better fuel economy.

[SVT666]

I just saw the hotest paramedic I've ever seen.  Damn was she sexy.  Sorry to hijac but I don't care.

[CJ]

mid-sized car ratings can be pretty subjective as i believe it was motor trend (eh? or c&d?) that brought this to light recently by selecting the camry as #1. older folks seem to love it for its smooth as silk ride over handling. personally, i think the honda accord does everything well, but there is a lot of competition when money comes into play. the accord ex-l v6 with navi can be considered pricey for anyone not familiar with honda. my parents will buy nothing else having owned many top-of-the-line accords - all flawless and NEVER in the shop.

great review, iffy! not an easy job, as i think this segment of cars already has its customer base establish; yet, there must be plenty of "open-minded" shoppers outside of my large, extended family of acura and honda owners  .

Our Accord is a huge POS.  About to go to the dealer under the powertrain warranty...

[Atomic]

Our Accord is a huge POS.  About to go to the dealer under the powertrain warranty...

cannot relate to that one, but feel your pain. sounds like my neighbor's new fusion is driving him to an early trade. it is on it's second transmission and his car is only a 2009 with under 12,000 miles. one never knows. his experience and yours, i bet, will leave you both open to different makes or models next time. my parent's odds are great, but they always buy new, like our last time fusion friend. he is eying a 2011 accord ex, thinking it might be worth the extra dough and nearly guaranteed high resale value he admire's in the honda's he has grown to love from across the white picket fence into my mom and dad's garage.

[68_427]

Hey teuts can you stop arguing with ifcar plz so we can get the rest of the comparison?

[Atomic]

Hey teuts can you stop arguing with ifcar plz so we can get the rest of the comparison?

waiting patiently  ...

[CJ]

We're about done with Honda.  Service departments are truly horrid here.  They ordered a piece for us in NOVEMBER and it still isn't here.  The order got cancelled in December, then I ordered it again and it's still not there.  I went back to the dealership to see if it was ordered and it was, but it was on back order.  I went back in JULY, since they were supposed to call us when it arrived, and they said that since the warranty has expired, we'd have to pay some outrageous price for something they said they'd fix on Honda's dollar.

[the Teuton]

Hey teuts can you stop arguing with ifcar plz so we can get the rest of the comparison?

Was my nap not enough?

[68_427]

Well how was I supposed to know you weren't going to come back and start it back up? 

[GoCougs]

It's not that you notice it -- "omg, AWD is getting in my way again" -- but it's quietly draining your power and gas mileage. It's not AWD that's a problem, it's its inherent compromises. If you want an AWD car, the Legacy is fine; if you don't (and most people clearly don't), there's not enough left going for it to make it better than other midsize sedans.

And it sucks away development dollars from the rest of the car as implied.

Personally I want it, as I drive over mountain passes a bit in the winter, where the "chains or 4wd" requirement is common. Sure chains are relatively easy but it's a PITA.

[Atomic]

We're about done with Honda.  Service departments are truly horrid here.  They ordered a piece for us in NOVEMBER and it still isn't here.  The order got cancelled in December, then I ordered it again and it's still not there.  I went back to the dealership to see if it was ordered and it was, but it was on back order.  I went back in JULY, since they were supposed to call us when it arrived, and they said that since the warranty has expired, we'd have to pay some outrageous price for something they said they'd fix on Honda's dollar.

absolutely shocked! here the service experience is lexus-like. free loaners, oil changes, loaners, etc.

no matter the brand, i like to buy and trade again while a car is under warranty. not always possible.

[CJ]

None of the dealers around here do loaners anymore, which is total bullshit. 

[Raza]

But he discredited the car on sloppy handling and slow acceleration in spite of the fact that it's still more capable than half of the cars in the test.

And to say that the AWD is unnecessary is moot. It's a ridiculous reason to knock the car down several places because Subie isn't going to start selling FWD Legacies anytime soon. It is what it is.

Define capable.  

And no, it's not ridiculous to knock it down because it has an unnecessary feature that detracts from the car simply because the automaker is too stubborn to give the market what it wants.  It got the gas mileage with the AWD hindrance by putting in a weak motor (and I imagine real world mileage would suffer for it), but it appears to have sacrificed a lot.  

But hey, it finally beat the Accord in a comparison!

[Raza]

And it sucks away development dollars from the rest of the car as implied.

Personally I want it, as I drive over mountain passes a bit in the winter, where the "chains or 4wd" requirement is common. Sure chains are relatively easy but it's a PITA.

That's a case where AWD makes sense (though I imagine you'd go for a bigger engine).  What Teuton doesn't seem to grasp is that most people don't need AWD and haven't been tainted by having one as a first car and thinking that you need it for light rain. 

[the Teuton]

I say he tests all of these cars in the dead of winter just to see if the results vary. The snow belt we're all on gets hit pretty hard.

The Legacy fills a very open hole, and I understand the sportier models aren't as floaty and soft, and they aren't too much more expensive...are they?

[Raza]

You live in DC. Need I remind you about last winter?

I've gone through much harsher winters than DC's one storm (and when snow gets to multiple feet, no car will get you anywhere) with FWD, in a hilly mountain town.  Not a scratch.  AWD has nothing on experience, skill, attentiveness, and consideration. 

[Raza]

It's not that hard to live with at all, and hundreds of thousands of soccer moms buy AWD crossovers yearly. You think they're complaining? And come on, the point in the Subie is moot because it still achieves better gas mileage than some of the other cars in the test.

Yeah, they are.  About gas mileage.  All the time. 

[the Teuton]

I've gone through much harsher winters than DC's one storm (and when snow gets to multiple feet, no car will get you anywhere) with FWD, in a hilly mountain town.  Not a scratch.  AWD has nothing on experience, skill, attentiveness, and consideration. 

I've lived with both on non-snow tires now. The AWD Subaru was more capable. A good SWB economy car does really well, but a car of the same size with power to the rear wheels is a noticeable improvement.

[ifcar]

I say he tests all of these cars in the dead of winter just to see if the results vary. The snow belt we're all on gets hit pretty hard.

The Legacy fills a very open hole, and I understand the sportier models aren't as floaty and soft, and they aren't too much more expensive...are they?

Yeah, what's five or six thousand bucks to a Subaru lover?

The Legacy fills a niche -- AWD midsize sedan -- and no one's denying that. But it's not a better choice than a good competitor outside of its niche.

[ifcar]

Sixth place: Mazda6

In last year's midsize comparison, the Mazda6 was a standout ? it was sporty to drive and sleekly styled yet still comfortable and roomy, in a balance that nothing else had approached.

The Mazda6, last redesigned for the 2009 model year, hasn't changed since that last comparison. But the competition has. Some reviewers continue to call this car the best-looking in its class, and it still has the most agile handling.

But as a car that tries to appeal to the enthusiast-minded family sedan buyers, the Mazda6 has fallen behind with its engine performance...

Continued at link:
http://www.examiner.com/autos-in-national/comparison-review-eight-family-sedans-sixth-place

[MX793]

None of the dealers around here do loaners anymore, which is total bullshit. 

Few have them around here either, but many will arrange for and pay for a car from a local rental agency.

[MX793]

I say he tests all of these cars in the dead of winter just to see if the results vary. The snow belt we're all on gets hit pretty hard.

The Legacy fills a very open hole, and I understand the sportier models aren't as floaty and soft, and they aren't too much more expensive...are they?

I live in the vicinity of one of the 5 snowiest metro areas in the lower 48 by virtue of the fact that this part of the country gets hit by both NorEasters off the Atlantic coast and lake effect storms from the Great Lakes.  I have never owned an AWD/4WD vehicle (the first half of my driving life so far was spent in a RWD car and the second half in FWD).  I've never even had anything better than all season tires on a vehicle.  Would AWD make wintertime driving easier?  Sure.  Is it necessary to get around in the winter?  I would say not.

[SVT666]

Better get good winters for your Mustang though.

I currently have a FWD Focus and an AWD/4x4 Explorer.  We had an AWD crossover for the last 3 years as well.  I would much rather have AWD or 4x4 for winter driving...but having said that, a good set of winter tires makes all the difference on a 2WD vehicle (RWD or FWD).  I drove a modified Mustang GT with no traction control or ABS in Calgary winters for 3 years in a row on a set of good winter tires and I never had any problems where FWD cars on all-season tires were spun out or stuck.  Winter tires FTMFW!  AWD with winter tires = The bomb! (whatever the fuck that means).

[2o6]

I say he tests all of these cars in the dead of winter just to see if the results vary. The snow belt we're all on gets hit pretty hard.

The Legacy fills a very open hole, and I understand the sportier models aren't as floaty and soft, and they aren't too much more expensive...are they?

We've coped fine with 2WD cars all this time.

[HurricaneSteve]

I don't know what scoring system you use but the numbers don't seem to add up. The Accord has a "high price" yet of the three, it's been the cheapest as tested. It has "mediocre fuel economy" but it's better than the Mazda6. It has more passenger room than the others but less trunk space. It's a better drive than the Legacy, rides better than the 6 and ties it in acceleration. The big marks against the Accord seem to be a noisy ride, "iffy" crash test ratings (Accord got all 5 stars except 3 for the side rear passenger) and a smallish trunk but it's pro/con ratio seems to be poor enough to relegate it to last place?

As for AWD, yes it's true that no one NEEDS it, but at the same time it's very nice to have, especially for those who want a bit of extra security in terrible weather.

[HurricaneSteve]

That's a case where AWD makes sense (though I imagine you'd go for a bigger engine).  What Teuton doesn't seem to grasp is that most people don't need AWD and haven't been tainted by having one as a first car and thinking that you need it for light rain. 

The fact that the Legacy is so competitively priced with good fuel mileage AND AWD thrown in should be a huge selling point. Perhaps the reason why most buyers are "okay" with FWD and RWD only cars is because AWD/4WD was typically available only on trucks/SUV's and got considerably worse mileage than a 2WD vehicle, not to mention a higher price. At one point people were okay with not having A/C in their cars too.

[the Teuton]

We've coped fine with 2WD cars all this time.

There are better ways to do things. And in most cases, a good AWD system is well worth compromising a little steering feel vs. a FWD car with the same power in order to have better at-the-limit handling.

You know what the worst thing about that MazdaSpeed3 I drove was? Torque steer and the feeling that the front wheels were doing too much. With the exception of that and a little bit of a learning curve with the clutch, the car was perfect. You know what would have solved the 280 lbs.-ft. FWD problem? Having two more wheels carry some of the load.

Don't give me the BS about AWD cars of similar ilk not being good enough, either. The Evo is still the love kin of the motoring press for its handling, performance, and razor-sharp steering feel.

Drive a winter with both a FWD and AWD car, being a poor college student on A/S tires. Tell me which does better. You'll notice a difference.

[ifcar]

There are better ways to do things. And in most cases, a good AWD system is well worth compromising a little steering feel vs. a FWD car with the same power in order to have better at-the-limit handling.

You know what the worst thing about that MazdaSpeed3 I drove was? Torque steer and the feeling that the front wheels were doing too much. With the exception of that and a little bit of a learning curve with the clutch, the car was perfect. You know what would have solved the 280 lbs.-ft. FWD problem? Having two more wheels carry some of the load.

Don't give me the BS about AWD cars of similar ilk not being good enough, either. The Evo is still the love kin of the motoring press for its handling, performance, and razor-sharp steering feel.

Drive a winter with both a FWD and AWD car, being a poor college student on A/S tires. Tell me which does better. You'll notice a difference.

AWD vs. FWD definitely has its merits when there's a lot of power involved. If Subaru ever comes across any sort of power it can add to this particular Legacy model, I'd definitely see merit for AWD.

[the Teuton]

AWD vs. FWD definitely has its merits when there's a lot of power involved. If Subaru ever comes across any sort of power it can add to this particular Legacy model, I'd definitely see merit for AWD.

Just not for a 170 hp motor on a big car with a CVT, right? And for only being 186" long, I do think it's a fairly big car.