2011 Mercedes-Benz S250 CDI: official details, photos specs and price

[FlatBlackCaddy]

I agree that luxury is to many degress a big motor as MX stated.

Simply put, these small diesels will be required for the v12 and v8's to continue to be available.

[2o6]

Right, because the average consumer can't tell that the Prius is closer in size to a Corolla than a Camry.

The Prius also feels a lot larger than the Corolla (or even the Camry). For example, that Sportage is a larger car inside. However, the Soul didn't really feel like too much of a difference.


People are like that. For example, my mother thinks the new Malibu is "too narrow" and small, but she thinks the 2nd Gen xB is a car to die for with loads of space (for its size).

Not in the USA, frankly.

Fleets do.

A 72K Euro car is not "cheap", especially when you start factoring in used cars

And fuel costs, while oppressively expensive in Germany, are still a small piece of the ownership cost pie. All other costs are probably the same.

Again, if they offered this car in the US, nobody would buy it, even w/all this green shit going on. So this car is a response to Euro tax schemes, not rich people clamoring for a 5,000 lb, 200HP 4 banger car.

This car will be popular with fleets, don't get it twisted.

[cawimmer430]

Not in the USA, frankly.

Then why is there a strong possibility for a diesel C-Class and new E-Class (C/E250 CDI)? Why was the E320 CDI / Bluetec sold out in no time? Why is there such a high demand for diesel M and GL (and some R) class cars? It's time for the S-Class to get a diesel option in the US. Ok, so an S250 CDI might be a bit shocking for now, but the V6 S350 CDI would be perfect.

[Submariner]

If you think about it, the w124 S-class diesels were about as pointless then as they are now - even if there was a significant savings in fuel costs, the base diesel was a mighty expensive car.  If anything, it makes more sense now because of the tremendous strides made in diesel technology.

Still, if I were in the market, I'd have to go with the upcoming 4.6TT V8.  Assuming I had the disposable income, I'd take the monumental power of that new engine over 30% better fuel economy.  

P.S.  The S400 Hybrid is kind of a joke...19/26 figures are pretty poor.  IIRC, the new 426HP V8 is slated to get 23 highway MPG's...

[Galaxy]

If you think about it, the w124 S-class diesels were about as pointless then as they are now - even if there was a significant savings in fuel costs, the base diesel was a mighty expensive car.  If anything, it makes more sense now because of the tremendous strides made in diesel technology.

The best example of saving fuel with a high performance engine, at an expense so great you save no money is:

P.S.  The S400 Hybrid is kind of a joke...19/26 figures are pretty poor.  IIRC, the new 426HP V8 is slated to get 23 highway MPG's...

The suspect the S 320 CDI beats this in almost every way. I don't have the numbers on hand, but I suspect that while the S 400 Hybrid will beat the S 320 CDI 0-100km/h, the diesel will smoke that thing 60-80, 80-120. Basically everything that counts objectively.

[BENZ BOY15]

No. People who buy Priuses just want to be seen saving fuel. The Prius absolutely fails any environmental or economic analyses.

Exactly. I love when people have the Prius alongside the Suburban or the Silverado.

[Vinsanity]

Then why is there a strong possibility for a diesel C-Class and new E-Class (C/E250 CDI)? Why was the E320 CDI / Bluetec sold out in no time? Why is there such a high demand for diesel M and GL (and some R) class cars? It's time for the S-Class to get a diesel option in the US. Ok, so an S250 CDI might be a bit shocking for now, but the V6 S350 CDI would be perfect.

people shopping for a $30k C-class are more likely to care about fuel costs than those shopping for a $90k S-class

[cawimmer430]

people shopping for a $30k C-class are more likely to care about fuel costs than those shopping for a $90k S-class

I think that's untrue. Most people who buy an S-Class do so for comfort, luxury, prestige, safety etc. reasons. Raw performance isn't really a criteria. As long as the car performs well they're happy. The S250 CDI, from the looks of it, performs well enough for most people. I know I would be most satisfied with such performance given how closely this thing performs (in terms of 0-100 km/h) to the old W220 S320 CDI, which I have driven and found completely acceptable from that standpoint.

The bottom line is that Mercedes S-Class shoppers have a choice. They can get a fully loaded S250 CDI and enjoy life or they can get a fully loaded S500 and enjoy life - but with more stops for gas.

My dad has actually been toying with the idea of buying a used W220/W221 S-Class diesel. When I showed him the news about the S250 CDI, he was very interested. My dad is the sort of person who wants a nice luxury car that's comfortable, safe etc. but gets good fuel economy and has decent performance. To him, the S250 CDI is the ideal S-Class and these are the people who will be interested in the S250 CDI.

[sportyaccordy]

Ironically, my dad would be a customer for this car as well. His dream car is a diesel Benz.

[Mustangfan2003]

Ironically, my dad would be a customer for this car as well. His dream car is a diesel Benz.

How much is he willing to pay?   

[TBR]

The point is that WE HAVE A CHOICE OF ENGINES TO SELECT FROM. People are free to buy what they want, they just need to make sure they can afford to pay for gas etc. And if you're going for a luxury car here you definitely are financially well-off enough to pay the costs. It's not an issue.

Europeans have a choice. If they don't give a damn about cars and just need something to get them from A to B they go for something slow and economical. Seems to me that Americans don't have that choice and they don't seem to want it. Someone who lives in the city, doesn't care about cars but needs them to get to work can only buy a Camry 4-cylinder, V6 or Hybrid (of which probably the hybrid is the most economical overall). Go take a look at the plentiful engine choices Europeans have on Passat's, C5's, Laguna's, Avensis' etc. in comparison.

Oh, and our E320 is pretty economical. Drive it normally and it averages 8.2 L / 100 km (My mom even got 7.0 L / 100 km once). My dad wanted an E320 because he felt the extra power could come in handy when overtaking (over the E240). The 500SL is purely a summer vehicle and hardly gets driven anyway. Half the time it's not even registered (and thus no taxes have to be paid for it). Sure, it's thirsty as hell and that is to be expected from a 2-ton+ car with a 326-hp V8. We can afford to pay for its running costs. It's not an issue.

Your hypocrisy reeks.

This is why: you complained about how Americans use too much energy. Well, here your family has made the same decisions with respect to vehicles and gas mileage as the typical American family does. But, I guess it's alright since your family is wealthy?

[the Teuton]

I've never understood the concept of paying more money for a car that consumes less gas. In plastics use alone, I'm sure the C uses less than the S. Emissions come from molding plastics, tanning leather hides, etc.

[sportyaccordy]

I've never understood the concept of paying more money for a car that consumes less gas. In plastics use alone, I'm sure the C uses less than the S. Emissions come from molding plastics, tanning leather hides, etc.

Or buying a brand new car to save money on gas. IDK. I just wish people were honest in their reasons for making their purchases.

[Madman]

And you can still get 600 HP V12's...

But today's luxury is different or is at the very least, heading down a different path.  Luxury is still luxury, but rapped in an eco-friendly banner.  Even if said "green" options do little to nothing to actually save the planet, it certainly eases the feeble minded, gullible owner and everyone else around them, too hip to notice that green costs a great deal of green, and offers little to no real benefit.

Sporty is spot on when calling into question the Prius's merits.  Richard Hammond, too, made great points when comparing it to the Polo BlueMotion he drove against Jeremy's (fabulous) XJ diesel and James's Outback estate.  In essence, he pointed out that his Polo not only achieved markedly better highway fuel economy, it did so without the Prius's ugly shape, toxic batteries, and smug elitism, oh, and it cost thousands less to boot. Now, I'm not sure how the Polo compares to the Prius size wise, and yes, I'm guessing the Prius has more punch, but I'd be willing to bet that if VW wanted, they could make a direct competitor to the Prius without any of the hybrid fuss.

Volkswagen already has a direct competitor to the Prius; the Golf TDI.   And I wish they would make more noise about it!


http://www.vw.com/golf/en/us/

http://tdi.vw.com/

[Colonel Cadillac]

Americans and Europeans value different things and therefore think differently which produces different opinions. It seems few people here have figured this out...

Americans: you don't live in Europe and don't understand Europeans very well
Europeans: you don't live in the United States and don't understand Americans as well

I differentiate Americans not understanding Europeans "very well" and Europeans not understanding Americans "as well" because this is a predominantly North American forum, and thus the Europeans have learned more about American culture than Americans have about European culture.
That is that

[CALL_911]

We are superior, however.

[cawimmer430]

Your hypocrisy reeks.

 

This is why: you complained about how Americans use too much energy. Well, here your family has made the same decisions with respect to vehicles and gas mileage as the typical American family does.

Now hold on for a second. You're spinning things here. I've already explained that our final decision was between the E270 CDI and E320. We opted for the E320 because it was more powerful and more fuel-efficient than the E240. It made more sense than the E240. Also, the E270 CDI would have been nice but it would only make financial sense to us if we drove over 10-15,000 km a year, which we don't (to pay off the diesel tax).

And our E320 is a pretty economical car average around 8.2 L / 100 km. The American W211 E320 is QUICKER because of different final drive ratios but it is LESS FUEL EFFICIENT than its Euro counterpart. And unlike you, we also had the option of an E200 Kompressor, E240, E200 CDI, E220 CDI, E270 CDI or E320 CDI to pick from. We just opted for the E320. Big deal. I remember everyone on Car and Driver back then hammering on the E320 for being so "underpowered with 224-hp bla bla bla"... 

The 500SL is a pure indulgence car that gets driven only during the summers - and rarely. It's not a car my dad drives on a daily basis. And although my dad (and I) enjoy the V8 power, a regular 300SL or a latter SL280 / SL320 would have been FINE - since my dad drives the car like what it was designed to do: cruise around. And if you've read my previous post, I explained that this was my father's dream car. A dream car can be an indulgence, like in this case.

But, I guess it's alright since your family is wealthy?

My family is well-off but it's not like we strive to own the most powerful cars etc. And although there's no reason to replace the E320, my dad is always toying with the idea of getting a USED DIESEL car like an E220 CDI or S320 CDI / S350 CDI etc. These are engine options you don't get and probably wouldn't enjoy because...oh they get good gas mileage but don't do 0-60 in 5 seconds... bla bla bla...

[CJ]

"A dream car can be an indulgence, like in this case."

A lot of people dream about having a big V8 under the hood.  I want a big V8 under the hood, but would be just fine with this diesel S-Class.  It's just as fast as the W126 S-Class was.

[sportyaccordy]

Wimm,

The point is multifaceted. Even with all the choices, your family opted for what are considered the standard engines in America for the Benzes you own. In addition, because of Germany's wacky tax system, you went w/the E320 instead of the E270 Diesel. So your family is proof that when people can afford to, they will go for more than the most frugal engine choice out there, and that behavioral taxes like a higher diesel tax over gasoline will influence people's purchases.

The idea that the sole driver of Germans buying cars like an E200 CDI is purely because they feel that that is what's "adequate" and Americans are just power hungry speed demons is absurd. Your government forces people who are not as well off as your family to buy cars that they wouldn't if there were no additional taxes associated w/certain choices.

[TBR]

Wimm,

The point is multifaceted. Even with all the choices, your family opted for what are considered the standard engines in America for the Benzes you own. In addition, because of Germany's wacky tax system, you went w/the E320 instead of the E270 Diesel. So your family is proof that when people can afford to, they will go for more than the most frugal engine choice out there, and that behavioral taxes like a higher diesel tax over gasoline will influence people's purchases.

The idea that the sole driver of Germans buying cars like an E200 CDI is purely because they feel that that is what's "adequate" and Americans are just power hungry speed demons is absurd. Your government forces people who are not as well off as your family to buy cars that they wouldn't if there were no additional taxes associated w/certain choices.

Exactly. What wimmer doesn't seem to get is that most of us aren't driving around in 400hp SUVs that get 12 mpg. The best selling cars have 4 cylinders and get upwards of 30 mpg on the highway. I am guessing this is better gas mileage than his parents E320 gets. Even so, so what if we do buy cars with more power and worse gas mileage? That's no different than wimmer's family choosing the E320 over the E270 CDI because it's more powerful, even if it does get worse gas mileage.

Again, hypocrisy. Your family can choose more power and worse gas mileage because non-wealthy Germans are forced to drive economical cars, but Americans can't since almost all of us can afford the more power option? That's a double standard. Actually, that's elitism.

[CJ]

We chose the 4-cylinder Camry because it was economical and inexpensive. It gets 35 MPG on the highway. We chose the V6 Accord because it was the same price as the 4-cylinder of the same trim level. It'll do 26-32 on the highway depending on who's driving it and how much stuff is in the car. It also has some power for passing or just having fun. My 940 had 114 HP. It was almost dangerously slow in Dallas traffic.

[NomisR]

That shit is the truth.

Besides, this car will most likely only be sold in Europe. Things are pricey in Europe. People are used to paying a lot of money for things here and fuel economy is important here. MB wouldn't build this car if there wasn't a market for it out there. Period.

Sheesh, food's expensive so you guys can't afford to eat, and you guys claim you're skinny because you're more health conscious, not from malnurishment.  Gas if expensive, so you guys can't afford to drive real cars and you claim you guys are environmentally conscious..  And then you guys hate rich people... what gives?

[cawimmer430]

The point is multifaceted. Even with all the choices, your family opted for what are considered the standard engines in America for the Benzes you own. In addition, because of Germany's wacky tax system, you went w/the E320 instead of the E270 Diesel. So your family is proof that when people can afford to, they will go for more than the most frugal engine choice out there, and that behavioral taxes like a higher diesel tax over gasoline will influence people's purchases.

First of all, a W211 E320 is pretty common in all of Europe. The cars that are rare are the E500 and E55 AMG. E320? A common sight. The E220 CDI just makes up over 50% of sales because many people consider it to be the best choice in terms of performance and fuel economy. The fact that the E320 sold well simply means that most Mercedes' customers are well-off and couldn't be bothered with extra fuel or tax costs.

And you're spinning things around. My family isn't proof at all that if people can afford a more powerful and expensive car that they'll go for it. At the time the E320 seemed the best choice for us. That's all. In many ways, my dad sort of "regretted" buying an E320 because he claims it's to powerful for his needs. The fuel economy is good and the engine capacity tax isn't even that pricey on this 3.2-l V6 car. But my dad has often expressed a desire to downgrade to an E220 CDI, a used one perhaps. And nowadays he's toying with the idea of a used diesel W220/W221 S-Class. Notice I said "toying". He won't actually buy one unless something goes very wrong with the E320.

The idea that the sole driver of Germans buying cars like an E200 CDI is purely because they feel that that is what's "adequate" and Americans are just power hungry speed demons is absurd.

No it's not absurd.

Power is subjective. Most people are realistic and to them the performance of an E200 CDI or E220 CDI is perfectly adequate. I've driven both the W211 E200 CDI and E220 CDI. The E200 CDI is decent but the E220 CDI is the better choice. It's far more agile and gets the same fuel economy.

When I drive our E320, I never even use half its power. It's a cruiser. I might do a kickdown for quick overtaking sprints on the Autobahn or on country roads, but other than that I drive it like a limousine. An E200 CDI would actually suit me better given my driving style in the W211.

Your government forces people who are not as well off as your family to buy cars that they wouldn't if there were no additional taxes associated w/certain choices.

The government doesn't force anyone to buy cars they can't afford: people buy what they want and they make sure they can afford it. The government taxes regarding cars are just there, but they don't hinder people from buying what they want.

Besides, most people here aren't car enthusiasts like us. They want something that gets them from A to B. That's it. So they'll gladly pay for a 1.0-L Fox if they live in the city or something because it's a cheap and efficient car and it's all they need.

Also, more than 50% of cars sold in Europe these days are DIESEL. There's a hefty diesel tax on these cars in virtually all EU countries - and yet they still sell well. The diesel tax only makes sense if you drive over a certain mileage (on average 10-15,000 km) a year. It makes perfect sense in ANY medium or large SUV or flagship luxury car. Many people buy these diesel cars for the mileage but don't drive enough to make the diesel tax worth it. And they can still afford it.

And lastly, most Europeans have a negative view on some American cars like your outrageously big, overweight, overpowered and over-guzzling SUVs or Pickups for example. What kind of person needs something as huge as that? And if you do need it (for work etc.), why does it come with silly gas-guzzling V8 instead of a more economical diesel engine? That doesn't make sense us. Whereas a Ford Econoline has something like ten gas-guzzling gasoline V8 engine options (after all, 0-60 in 5 seconds is so important) and only a single diesel option, a van like that in Europe will have ten diesel engine options and only one (or no) gasoline motor option. And that petrol option solely exists for businesses that don't drive a lot and want to avoid the diesel tax.

[cawimmer430]

Exactly. What wimmer doesn't seem to get is that most of us aren't driving around in 400hp SUVs that get 12 mpg. The best selling cars have 4 cylinders and get upwards of 30 mpg on the highway. I am guessing this is better gas mileage than his parents E320 gets.

I understand that.

My problem is that you lack choices. You have nothing below the current E350 and YOU DON'T SEEM TO WANT ANYTHING BELOW THAT. I realize luxury is special in the US, but I am sure there are tons of people who just want an E-Class and don't give a damn about performance or showing their dick size to a Camry V6 driver. For these people a model below the E350 would make perfect sense. "But no, OMG like a 4-cylinder in a luxury car! Like totally not acceptable! OMG!!!" 

The E320 gets good gas mileage. Drive it right and you can get 7.7 L / 100 km. Average fuel economy is 8.2 L / 100 km (8.0 L / 100 km with the new Michelin tires we've noticed).

Even so, so what if we do buy cars with more power and worse gas mileage? That's no different than wimmer's family choosing the E320 over the E270 CDI because it's more powerful, even if it does get worse gas mileage.

What are you trying to say? That my family purposefully picked an E320 over an E270 CDI because it's more powerful and gets worse gas mileage? 

I've already explained why we went with the E320. It had more power than the E240 and was rated at a higher gas mileage and it was CHEAPER TO RUN (including car taxes) than an E270 CDI given that we barely average 10,000 km a year (an E270 CDI only made sense if we did over 10-15,000 km a year). If we drove a lot and needed the extra mileage, the E270 CDI would have won out over the E320. It's that simple.

Needless to say my dad has also learned from this experience and now considers the E320 'overkill' in terms of performance. But since it's been very reliable and the gas mileage is great, there's no real reason to get rid of it.

Again, hypocrisy. Your family can choose more power and worse gas mileage because non-wealthy Germans are forced to drive economical cars, but Americans can't since almost all of us can afford the more power option? That's a double standard. Actually, that's elitism.

Again, nobody is "forced" to drive anything here. The car taxes in place don't hinder people from buying what they want. You and Sporty make it sound as if these taxes are so expensive and unpayable by the common man here. They're payable. It's just a little extra cost that goes along with owning the car. That's all. Germany is a wealthy country and the living standards are high. Most people here can buy what what they want given their income.

And, unlike America, which a few years (and probably still does) had a negative savings record, Europeans have a positive savings record. That means that when people here want to buy a nice car for themselves they can because they're earnings and savings permit them to do so. Whatever engine they want is their decision. People here also keep their cars longer, so buying a nice car is also seen as an "investment".

Our prices are expensive. Life in Europe is expensive but people in most jobs are also paid well enough to be able to live here and pay their taxes (including car taxes).

[cawimmer430]

Sheesh, food's expensive so you guys can't afford to eat, and you guys claim you're skinny because you're more health conscious, not from malnurishment.  Gas if expensive, so you guys can't afford to drive real cars and you claim you guys are environmentally conscious..  And then you guys hate rich people... what gives?

Life in Europe is expensive. That's a fact. Given how Americans seem to want everything "cheap cheap cheap", it's no surprise to me that it's hard to accept how anyone would want to live under this oppressive rule called the EU... 

"Hating on the rich" is a little far fetched. "Social jealousy" is a little hard to explain but it is a common attribute to Northern Central European nations (including Scandinavia I believe) where it probably has developed out of the rather conservative and realist culture.

[sportyaccordy]

And you're spinning things around. My family isn't proof at all that if people can afford a more powerful and expensive car that they'll go for it. At the time the E320 seemed the best choice for us. That's all. In many ways, my dad sort of "regretted" buying an E320 because he claims it's to powerful for his needs. The fuel economy is good and the engine capacity tax isn't even that pricey on this 3.2-l V6 car. But my dad has often expressed a desire to downgrade to an E220 CDI, a used one perhaps. And nowadays he's toying with the idea of a used diesel W220/W221 S-Class. Notice I said "toying". He won't actually buy one unless something goes very wrong with the E320.

This is all good and well, but ultimately he went for the E320 over the E220 CDI. I don't get how the E320 seemed good then, and is too much now... did he test drive the E220 CDI at the time? I bet when he did he thought its performance was inadequate.

And I bet the E220 CDI is popular because again, ppl would like an E300 CDI or w/e, and REALLY want to be seen in/have a Benz, but because of taxes can only afford the E220 CDI or E240

The government doesn't force anyone to buy cars they can't afford: people buy what they want and they make sure they can afford it. The government taxes regarding cars are just there, but they don't hinder people from buying what they want.

How does a 200% tax on gas/diesel help people afford the cars they want? If someone drives a 10L/100km car 20,000 km/year, with gas costing 1.4 Euro ($7.50/gallon!!!), that's 8,400 Euros ($11,000!!!!!). By comparison someone driving the same car over the same distance in the US would be spending about $2500-3000. The avg new car in the US is like $25,000. How do more taxes make for more affordability?

Besides, most people here aren't car enthusiasts like us. They want something that gets them from A to B. That's it. So they'll gladly pay for a 1.0-L Fox if they live in the city or something because it's a cheap and efficient car and it's all they need.

I guarantee people buy 1.0L Foxes, because they have to pay the price of the car every year just to fuel it, not because that's "adequate". Even in the cities here people have slightly smaller but otherwise normal cars like Subaru Legacys, BMW 3 series, older Honda Accords etc. And as others said most Americans aren't speed demons either. But w/gas costing 1/3 what it does in Europe, and most driving being on highways w/other passengers something like a 2.2L Accord makes more sense for the avg American than a 1.0L Polo.

Also, more than 50% of cars sold in Europe these days are DIESEL. There's a hefty diesel tax on these cars in virtually all EU countries - and yet they still sell well. The diesel tax only makes sense if you drive over a certain mileage (on average 10-15,000 km) a year. It makes perfect sense in ANY medium or large SUV or flagship luxury car. Many people buy these diesel cars for the mileage but don't drive enough to make the diesel tax worth it. And they can still afford it.

Not sure what this has to do with anything.

And lastly, most Europeans have a negative view on some American cars like your outrageously big, overweight, overpowered and over-guzzling SUVs or Pickups for example. What kind of person needs something as huge as that? And if you do need it (for work etc.), why does it come with silly gas-guzzling V8 instead of a more economical diesel engine? That doesn't make sense us. Whereas a Ford Econoline has something like ten gas-guzzling gasoline V8 engine options (after all, 0-60 in 5 seconds is so important) and only a single diesel option, a van like that in Europe will have ten diesel engine options and only one (or no) gasoline motor option. And that petrol option solely exists for businesses that don't drive a lot and want to avoid the diesel tax.

Now here I agree with you to some degree. I think it's silly that people choose cramped SUVs over station wagons and minivans, and the Econoline vans are fcking useless. Americans also for w/e reason don't like compact pickup trucks. So there is an element of excess I admit to. But I do see more and more Dodge Sprinter vans (I think they are made by Mercedes?) w/diesels and smaller engines. To that end it makes sense- a van can run just as well w/a small turbodiesel motor instead of a huge gas guzzling V8. America is still warming up to diesel; we had a terrible time with it when GM tried it in the early 80s and failed miserably. But here in Manhattan I do see mainly hybrid cabs, and a few hybrid/luxury cars. I just saw an E350 Bluetec this morning.

Utimately though I think it's silly to say that Germany's car and fuel taxes don't influence purchases. You yourself said it influenced your family's purchases, and I know that if one drives enough in Germany they can wind up paying the cost of the car in fuel several times over during the course of ownership. That definitely would influence the avg American, who would be spending 1/5 their household income just to put gas in their car. All the stuff about social jealousy and modesty and all that is secondary or an effect.

[Autobahn]

How does a 200% tax on gas/diesel help people afford the cars they want? If someone drives a 10L/100km car 20,000 km/year, with gas costing 1.4 Euro ($7.50/gallon!!!), that's 8,400 Euros ($11,000!!!!!). By comparison someone driving the same car over the same distance in the US would be spending about $2500-3000. The avg new car in the US is like $25,000. How do more taxes make for more affordability?
I guarantee people buy 1.0L Foxes, because they have to pay the price of the car every year just to fuel it, not because that's "adequate". Even in the cities here people have slightly smaller but otherwise normal cars like Subaru Legacys, BMW 3 series, older Honda Accords etc. And as others said most Americans aren't speed demons either. But w/gas costing 1/3 what it does in Europe, and most driving being on highways w/other passengers something like a 2.2L Accord makes more sense for the avg American than a 1.0L Polo.


Utimately though I think it's silly to say that Germany's car and fuel taxes don't influence purchases. You yourself said it influenced your family's purchases, and I know that if one drives enough in Germany they can wind up paying the cost of the car in fuel several times over during the course of ownership. That definitely would influence the avg American, who would be spending 1/5 their household income just to put gas in their car. All the stuff about social jealousy and modesty and all that is secondary or an effect.

Let me put some facts straight, you are right in many points - but so is Wimmer... just to get a common understanding about how much people really spent on gas because you make it sound as if we Europeans would spent huge percentages of our paychecks on gas and you don't.

No matter how many exclamation marks you put your numbers are wrong. 20.000 kms in a 10L/100km car is 2000 Liters of used gas - with a gas price of 1.4 Euros that is about 2800 Euros which equals ~  $ 3800 which is not too far away from your $2500-3000 "estimate" for the US (which should be around $1500 anyway ).

As Germans most likely travel lesser distances to do their day-to-day driving as opposed to Americans (average car is driven ~13.000 kms / year) and drive more fuel efficient vehicles - the percentage of household income spent on gas could be equal.

In fact, some quick research showed that Americans spent about 4.8% of their household income on gas [1], while Germans spent around 3,5 % (not including motor oil) [2] so all in all that is about equal or even a bit less over here which I found interesting.

In my opinion it doesn't make sense (from both sides) to constantly compare the two markets, as they have very different characteristics (distances travelled, allowed speeds, numbers of passengers carried, car preferences, taxes, available other transportation etc, company car schemes...) I just find it interesting how both markets attract different types of cars...

[1] http://www.visualeconomics.com/how-the-average-us-consumer-spends-their-paycheck/
[2] http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/Sites/destatis/Internet/DE/Presse/pm/2009/12/PD09__489__85,templateId=renderPrint.psml

[TBR]

Let me put some facts straight, you are right in many points - but so is Wimmer... just to get a common understanding about how much people really spent on gas because you make it sound as if we Europeans would spent huge percentages of our paychecks on gas and you don't.

No matter how many exclamation marks you put your numbers are wrong. 20.000 kms in a 10L/100km car is 2000 Liters of used gas - with a gas price of 1.4 Euros that is about 2800 Euros which equals ~  $ 3800 which is not too far away from your $2500-3000 "estimate" for the US (which should be around $1500 anyway ).

As Germans most likely travel lesser distances to do their day-to-day driving as opposed to Americans (average car is driven ~13.000 kms / year) and drive more fuel efficient vehicles - the percentage of household income spent on gas could be equal.

In fact, some quick research showed that Americans spent about 4.8% of their household income on gas [1], while Germans spent around 3,5 % (not including motor oil) [2] so all in all that is about equal or even a bit less over here which I found interesting.

In my opinion it doesn't make sense (from both sides) to constantly compare the two markets, as they have very different characteristics (distances travelled, allowed speeds, numbers of passengers carried, car preferences, taxes, available other transportation etc, company car schemes...) I just find it interesting how both markets attract different types of cars...

[1] http://www.visualeconomics.com/how-the-average-us-consumer-spends-their-paycheck/
[2] http://www.destatis.de/jetspeed/portal/cms/Sites/destatis/Internet/DE/Presse/pm/2009/12/PD09__489__85,templateId=renderPrint.psml

Well that's certainly the first time I have seen footnotes on a message board.

Good post. We do drive more, mostly out of necessity, so it makes sense that we spend more on gas and also that we prioritize comfort a bit more than Europeans seem to.

[NomisR]

Life in Europe is expensive. That's a fact. Given how Americans seem to want everything "cheap cheap cheap", it's no surprise to me that it's hard to accept how anyone would want to live under this oppressive rule called the EU... 

The problem is.. you're simply paying more for the exact same thing.. you're just paying more money to your government...

"Hating on the rich" is a little far fetched. "Social jealousy" is a little hard to explain but it is a common attribute to Northern Central European nations (including Scandinavia I believe) where it probably has developed out of the rather conservative and realist culture.

This is something I probably won't understand, is it the idea that some people may never move out of the social status they and their grand parents have been in that caused this mentality?  The idea that, "since i'll never do any better for myself, I don't want to see you do better either"?  That's what it feels like from a distance at least..

[sportyaccordy]

Fck, where did I get 8400 from? Good post Autobahn

Still though, a 200% tax on gas is ridiculous. Like NomisR said you guys are paying 50-200% more for the same exact things we get here