Edmunds: "GM lied" about the Volt's electric drive system

[2o6]

I love how a range of 40 miles suddenly became "25-40 miles".

Depends on how you drive, and how your commute is.


This car would be great for those who drive in slit-your-wrists stop-and-go freeway traffic. By the time you start to run out of the electric range, you stop (no electric motor used) and the gas motor is charging the battery while you wait.

hey genius (2o6), the engine doesn't replenish the batteries

Yes it does.


That throws my entire idea about the Volt out of the window.

[93JC]

For me, assuming I got 35 mpg for every mile over 30 miles in a given day, I would have used about 90 gallons of fuel the whole year. Considering I drove about 5600 miles, I would have averaged about 62 mpg. I would have spent about $325 on gas for the whole year. Subtract out the highway trips I took for the hell of it and it would have dramatically lowered the cost.

I don't know about you guys, but in my opinion lowering my operating costs by about 70% would kick all sorts of ass.

Would I buy one? Nope. But I think the idea, whether or not you think it's revolutionary or just a slightly improved Prius, is awesome.

[the Teuton]

Okay -- here's my deal. If someone wants to figure this out for me, that'd help.

A Corolla will likely average 35 mpg per tank. It costs $17k for a decent model, and it seats 5 people with a folding rear seat. It's likely one of the closest progressions of what I drive now that's still on the road.

I drive 30 miles a day -- 15 miles there, 15 miles back, mostly highway.

When will the Volt start making itself cost-effective?

[Rich]

For me, assuming I got 35 mpg for every mile over 30 miles in a given day, I would have used about 90 gallons of fuel the whole year. Considering I drove about 5600 miles, I would have averaged about 62 mpg. I would have spent about $325 on gas for the whole year. Subtract out the highway trips I took for the hell of it and it would have dramatically lowered the cost.

I don't know about you guys, but in my opinion lowering my operating costs by about 70% would kick all sorts of ass.

Would I buy one? Nope. But I think the idea, whether or not you think it's revolutionary or just a slightly improved Prius, is awesome.

And it should get interesting when the plug in Prius comes out next year too.  Hopefully people snap them up and drive down the cost of gas

[2o6]

Okay -- here's my deal. If someone wants to figure this out for me, that'd help.

A Corolla will likely average 35 mpg per tank. It costs $17k for a decent model, and it seats 5 people with a folding rear seat. It's likely one of the closest progressions of what I drive now that's still on the road.

I drive 30 miles a day -- 15 miles there, 15 miles back, mostly highway.

When will the Volt start making itself cost-effective?

This point is irrelevant; you can argue this for any hybrid.

[the Teuton]

This point is irrelevant; you can argue this for any hybrid.

I can get a Prius for $23k. That's only a $6k spread, and it looks like nothing else on the road. It's trendy and very functional.

The Volt makes no sense to me.

[thewizard16]

I don't dislike the Volt, but the amount of hype GM built up for this car over the years does not seem even close to being well deserved. You can't build up how "revolutionary" and "groundbreaking" a car will be and then deliver a watered-down version of what you originally promised and expect no one to notice. This seems better than a traditional hybrid for the city-bound driver, albeit at a higher purchase price. I'm not sure how long it would take for it to pay off the difference in cost, but it seems like it would be quite a while. This car would work for me on a daily basis most likely, but considering the frequency of longer trips, it would be a pain-in-the-ass as a primary car. Wouldn't make my shopping list, anyway.

[giant_mtb]

Add it to the list of not-so-great fuel-savers that "green" and "I wanna make a statement!" phonies purchase and drive.

[280Z Turbo]

Add it to the list of not-so-great fuel-savers that "green" and "I wanna make a statement!" phonies purchase and drive.

I'd rather have phonies drive self righteous fuel sippers than gas guzzling urban cowboy pickups.

[giant_mtb]

I'd rather have phonies drive self righteous fuel sippers than gas guzzling urban cowboy pickups.

Sure.  Not exactly the point I was making, but that works, too.

[Galaxy]

I don't suppose the EV tax credit is in danger?

[68_427]

I love how people are complaining that this car isn't for them when they knew it wouldn't be from the start.

[Byteme]

Okay -- here's my deal. If someone wants to figure this out for me, that'd help.

A Corolla will likely average 35 mpg per tank. It costs $17k for a decent model, and it seats 5 people with a folding rear seat. It's likely one of the closest progressions of what I drive now that's still on the road.

I drive 30 miles a day -- 15 miles there, 15 miles back, mostly highway.

When will the Volt start making itself cost-effective?

I was just thinking along the same lines when I heard a discussion about the Nissan Leaf on NPR this morning. 

I filled the tank on the Mazda3 last night and drove it to work today.  Commute is 6 miles of city streets, followed by 17 miles of freeway, and then another 5 miles of city streets.  I averaged 39.6 MPG going the speed limits or keeping up with the flow of traffic (usually 65-70 on the freeway). I go about 450-500 miles between fillups.  The car cost us $15,600 + TTL in Feb 2006.  I could pick up a 2011 model for probably 17-18K today.



I don't have to carry my own gas powered battery charger around unlike a volt owner.
I don't worry about battery charge life and being stranded like a leaf owner does.  Very limited charging infrastructure currently exists.
I don't have to invest $2,500 in a 220V charging station for my house, like a leaf owner does if they want a full charge in under something like 16 hours. 
I could buy two Mazda3s for the price of one Volt or a new Mazda3 and a good used Miata for the price of a Leaf.
I wouldn't be deluding myself about no pollution from a Leaf or green footprint from the Volt if I bought and drove the Kazda3  Electricity generation pollutes as does battery production.
I woulden't be transferring some of my ownership costs to the U.S. taxpayer like Leaf and Volt owners do.
I have one vehicle that can be used efficiently for both commuting and longer trips, unlike the Leaf.


Now someone explain to my why anyone would buy one of these things other than to feel good about "saving the planet" or other silly reasons.

[NomisR]

Lest we not forget: The Prius was subsidized almost entirely by the Japanese government. It too was pretty impractical in it's first iteration.

How was the first Prius impractical?  It's expensive and overpriced for the size, yes, but impractical?  It's a Corolla sized car with a battery?  You're mistaken it for the Insight, which I believe is still a great commuter car. 

No, by driving their test loop. Until the battery goes below a certain mark (~40 miles BEFORE the gas motor kicks in) the car is on electric power only.

Test loops are typically not the best indicators of real life MPG.  You can usually see a huge difference between the MPG in the magazine tests and their long term vehicles.

On an entirely city loop, it will achieve that. The gas motor only chimes in a tiny bit to recharge the batteries.

My understanding is, from the original explaination anyways, that ICE maintains the battery charge, not fully recharge it. 

That isn't (nor has always ever been) the purpose of this car, or any hybrid for that matter.

What's a purpose of a city only car that's not good at anything.. even at having good gas mileage? 

[2o6]

  What's a purpose of a city only car that's not good at anything.. even at having good gas mileage? 

It is good in the city. It's excellent in the city.

Also, the first gen Prius and Insight were hard to take seriously (in the US).

Slow, funny looking, small....

[NomisR]

It is good in the city. It's excellent in the city.

Also, the first gen Prius and Insight were hard to take seriously (in the US).

Slow, funny looking, small....

It was hard for people to take seriously because gas was at $1.00/gal... not because of the way it looks.

[Galaxy]

I think the biggest problem is not that the Volt has some mechanical connections, it's that the fuel economy once the battery runs empty is not that impressive. Sure 35mpg is nothing to sneeze at, but in the end other -more conventional- cars can beat it. This is disappointing.

[Submariner]

Another government funded win! 

[Colonel Cadillac]

As we already knew, it's a good commuter car for those with <30 mile total commutes. The average commute is about 16 miles (or 32 total), so for a considerable number of Americans it does work out. Otherwise, it becomes less practical as the number of miles traveled increases. Let us not forget the simple trips to the grocery store, where you will likely use zero gasoline if fully charged. I think it's getting a little more criticism here than deserved.

[hounddog]

Let us not forget the simple trips to the grocery store, where you will likely use zero gasoline if fully charged. I think it's getting a little more criticism here than deserved.

But to charge it coal and/or natural gas must be burned, and, it has to be plugged into an already overly taxed system.

How is that better than burning a gallon of gas to run to the store?

I wonder; what is the fossil fuel usage difference to produce the electricity over the course of a year vs. the amount of gas used during that same time?

[Byteme]

As we already knew, it's a good commuter car for those with <30 mile total commutes. The average commute is about 16 miles (or 32 total), so for a considerable number of Americans it does work out. Otherwise, it becomes less practical as the number of miles traveled increases. Let us not forget the simple trips to the grocery store, where you will likely use zero gasoline if fully charged. I think it's getting a little more criticism here than deserved.

If all one ever does is short trips then electric cars like the Leaf and Volt make a little more sense.  Sure if you are going a short distance you need never buy gasoline and won't have a problem running out of charge where there is no charging station.  However, how practical is it to pay that kind of a premium for a car that receives that kind of limited use?  Looking a the overall value proposition these things make little sense.

Say one commutes 16 miles each way five days a week and racks up another 40 miles a week shopping. That's 200 miles a week, or 10,400 miles a year.  Further say I could buy a regular car that gets 28 MPG in that use.  That's 371 gallons a year,  or about $1,100 in gasoline at close to $3 a gallon.  So I'm paying a premium of $8,000 to $15,000 up front for a vehicle with range limitations and less flexibility in order to save about $1,100 a year in gas.  Say you pay an $8,000 premium, that works out to a payback period of about 7.25 years if one ignores the time value of money.

I like the concept of an electric vehicle, but the value propsition isn't there.    Take away the government subsidies and these thing would never have reached production.   

[NomisR]

If all one ever does is short trips then electric cars like the Leaf and Volt make a little more sense.  Sure if you are going a short distance you need never buy gasoline and won't have a problem running out of charge where there is no charging station.  However, how practical is it to pay that kind of a premium for a car that receives that kind of limited use?  Looking a the overall value proposition these things make little sense.

Say one commutes 16 miles each way five days a week and racks up another 40 miles a week shopping. That's 200 miles a week, or 10,400 miles a year.  Further say I could buy a regular car that gets 28 MPG in that use.  That's 371 gallons a year,  or about $1,100 in gasoline at close to $3 a gallon.  So I'm paying a premium of $8,000 to $15,000 up front for a vehicle with range limitations and less flexibility in order to save about $1,100 a year in gas.  Say you pay an $8,000 premium, that works out to a payback period of about 7.25 years if one ignores the time value of money.

I like the concept of an electric vehicle, but the value propsition isn't there.    Take away the government subsidies and these thing would never have reached production.   

This is pretty much the same arguement against regular hybrids, at about 1/2 of the premium paid.  I would rather get myself a diesel, at least with that, I get gobs of torque to play with.

[giant_mtb]

But diesels are so noisy and smelly and they all sound like buses!

Why don't they put small diesel engines in these friggin' things?  They'd get wayyyyy better mileage.  A torquey diesel engine is much more akin to powering a vehicle at low speeds and/or spinning a generator (a la diesel-electric trains).  Durrrrrrrrrrrr.

[Vinsanity]

I could probably do a whole week's worth of commuting to work in the Volt without using a drop of gasoline...only if I had somewhere to plug it in to.

[giant_mtb]

So you live, what, 3 miles from work?

[Mustangfan2003]

But to charge it coal and/or natural gas must be burned

Not for all of us

[Vinsanity]

So you live, what, 3 miles from work?

2 miles!

I'm actually riding a bicycle to work, so buying a $40k commuter appliance is hardly justifiable for me, but the Volt would still be suitable to run errands and making those weeknd visits to my parents' house down the freeway.

[Raza]

It's not a full electric vehicle as they originally claimed.  Originally, they said the only thing the ICE would do is generate electricity. 

Ice generates electricity?  They why doesn't my freezer pay for itself?

[Raza]

I could probably do a whole week's worth of commuting to work in the Volt without using a drop of gasoline...only if I had somewhere to plug it in to.

I could do nearly 10% of my daily commute without using a drop of gasoline!

[Laconian]

Ice generates electricity?  They why doesn't my freezer pay for itself?

"Ice" as in "rapper jewelry". ICE engines convert bling energy into electricity.