Edmunds: "GM lied" about the Volt's electric drive system

[giant_mtb]

I could do nearly 10% of my daily commute without using a drop of gasoline!

So by the time a year has gone by, you'd have saved about 25 commutes' worth of gas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Submariner]

But diesels are so noisy and smelly and they all sound like buses!

Why don't they put small diesel engines in these friggin' things?  They'd get wayyyyy better mileage.  A torquey diesel engine is much more akin to powering a vehicle at low speeds and/or spinning a generator (a la diesel-electric trains).  Durrrrrrrrrrrr.

Most people cannot stand the deafening clatter of a TDi Jetta.  

Besides, the hipster crowd is far better suited to free trade bicycles and Prius's with ethnically balanced Nickel batteries than genocidal diesel killing machines and the capitalist gas stations that fuel them on the backs of slave labor. 

[Laconian]

Most people cannot stand the deafening clatter of a TDi Jetta. 

Whatever, the piston slap of a GM gas engine is worse.

[Byteme]

2 miles!

I'm actually riding a bicycle to work, so buying a $40k commuter appliance is hardly justifiable for me, but the Volt would still be suitable to run errands and making those weeknd visits to my parents' house down the freeway.

You could do the same thing in an economy car and pocket $20K plus.

[Vinsanity]

You could do the same thing in an economy car and pocket $20K plus.

Exactly. Even my 6-year-old car now worth $14k to a generous buyer is a bit much for what I use it for. The catch-22 with the Volt is that the people it's seemingly intended for (urban commuters) will either find it unsuitable because they don't have anywhere to plug it into in their high-rise condos, or as you point out, they don't drive enough miles to justifty the higher buy-in cost.

[the Teuton]

I have a paper handout of the slide show presentation from the SAE World Congress from this past year on the history of the electric car.

I think it's about time to post it. Some misinformation here is perturbing me slightly.

[hounddog]

Not for all of us

True.

But, do not be fooled into believing your electricity comes completely from a hydro source just because you live close. 

Michigan has nuclear power plants, but a large portion of it goes to Chicago as I understand.

[hounddog]

Most people cannot stand the deafening clatter of a TDi Jetta. 

Besides, the hipster crowd is far better suited to free trade bicycles and Prius's with ethnically balanced Nickel batteries than genocidal diesel killing machines and the capitalist gas stations that fuel them on the backs of slave labor. 

LOL 

Poetry.   

Truth is, diesels are still cleaner than a Prius. 

As for the noise, my dad recently bought a 3/4 ton Dodge with the big Cummins.  It is nearly actually little quieter than my Hemi inside the vehicle. 

Oh, I wish Katharine had not gotten rid of my truck.  Silly silly woman. 

[Mustangfan2003]

True.

But, do not be fooled into believing your electricity comes completely from a hydro source just because you live close. 

Michigan has nuclear power plants, but a large portion of it goes to Chicago as I understand.

Well maybe or maybe not but the Tennessee River does have a lot of hydro electric dams. 

[thewizard16]

Well maybe or maybe not but the Tennessee River does have a lot of hydro electric dams. 

Mountain Home has two large hydroelectric dams next to it, from which it apparently receives none of its power. It was a bit disappointing to find that out after I'd been there several years and had just assumed part of that power must surely go to the nearby area.

[hounddog]

Is there anyone here who is more familiar with power distribution?

A little insight here could be of some value, although, more for entertainment sake than anything.

[Byteme]

Mountain Home has two large hydroelectric dams next to it, from which it apparently receives none of its power. It was a bit disappointing to find that out after I'd been there several years and had just assumed part of that power must surely go to the nearby area.

The continental US is on interconnected power grids.  The two major ones are the eastern interconnection and the western interconnection.  Texas has its own interconnection.    Your nearby dams may deliver power to you and as far as half a continent away depending on who needs how much power where.  Power is transferred between the interconnects when necessary.  If your nearby power plant is down for maintenence you will still get electicity from other power plants on the grid in your interconnect or perhaps from outside it.

google INTERCONNECTIONS for a wealth of information.

Better yet see:  http://www.mrs.org/s_mrs/bin.asp?CID=12527&DID=206424

[r0tor]

From looking at the power distribution map here at work, Tennessee has about 8 hydro plants of a small small size and one good sized plant that is larger then all the others combined.  Most look to be on tba's relatively low voltage lines so they should be sort of localish in delivery

[sportyaccordy]

Is there anyone here who is more familiar with power distribution?

A little insight here could be of some value, although, more for entertainment sake than anything.

The great irony of plug in hybrids is that the urban cities that they'd make sense in cannot handle charging them. The commute would have to be short enough that they could make a round trip off of one charge, since they could not be charged at work. If you're that close to work you can prob carpool or use PT. The whole thing is a joke.

Plus hybrids only make sense for extreme stop n go driving. America is not a stop n go country

[Madman]

Well, I must say there's a lot of information here to digest!

As is the case with any new technology, the "early adopters" will, in effect, become unpaid beta-testers for the company which produces it.  The "Real World" information gleaned from the early adopters will be used to make subsequent models more efficient, practical and better overall.  Once these improvements occur and the new technology gains more acceptance, the economies of scale brought about by increased prodution will cause prices to tumble downward.

The horseless carriage didn't replace the horse overnight.  Early cars were expensive curiosities bought by the well-off early adopters of the time.  On the way to perfecting the horseless carriage, engineers went up numerous blind alleys (steam power, for example) before settling on a format that worked the best (the internal combustion gasoline engine) with the technology available at the time.

We are in the early days of hybrid powertrain technology.  It remains to be seen if, like steam, hybrids turn out to be another engineering cul-de-sac.  On the other hand, hybrids may become a stepping stone on the way to some other yet-to-be-developed technology.  One thing is for certain; as imperfect as cars like the Volt, Prius and Insight are (and they are FAR from being perfect), we can not afford to discourage or stifle innovation which has the potential to free us from the shackles of fossil fuels.

Alas, I am not an early adopter.  I only succumb to new technology when the world forces me to do so by not supporting the outdated format.  For example, in the mid-'90s I reluctantly bought a CD player only because the record shops stopped selling cassette tapes.  Just a few years ago, I had to practically be forced at gunpoint to buy a CD player because VHS tapes were going the way of the Dodo bird.

It's safe to say I won't be buying a Chevy Volt (or anything like it) for a very, very, VERY long time.

[FoMoJo]

I believe that GM deserves a good amount of praise for pursuing plug-in technology and evolving it to a level whereby it's now available for public consumption.  That is, I think they done a good job .

Considering the benefits to those who fit the demographic...

- can run up to 40 miles without the I/C engine (range extender) kicking in
- can run up to 70 mph without the I/C engine (range extender) kicking in
- can use up to 1/2 the battery capacity (8kwh) without the I/C engine (range extender) kicking in
- can be fully recharged in about 6 hours
- can be plugged into a residencial outlet (with appropriate adapter which, I assume, comes with the car)
- will cost less than $1.00 for a recharge (that will get you about 40 miles of transportation)

...it sounds pretty good.

As previously mentioned, new technology is seldom cheap and never perfect.  Imo, battery technology is the key and the advances in the last 3 years alone have likely surpassed all the efforts in the entire 20th century to improve size, weight, storage capacity and recharge time.  It will take time and trials to improve it and volume to reduce the associated costs.  However, it must start somewhere and someone must make the leap to get it off and running.  As well, it is a long-term investment; something which is an anathema to the present fiscal mind-set who think only in short-term, quick buck, bottom-line concepts.  Indeed, GM deserves much praise for its efforts - if only they were able to procure the battery development from a locally owned company rather than having to go to a local outlet of a Korean owned firm .

[93JC]

- can run up to 70 mph without the I/C engine (range extender) kicking in

If the battery is drained. If you have a full charge the battery will power the electric motor all the way up to the electronically-limited 100 mph top speed, completed unassisted.

[FoMoJo]

If the battery is drained. If you have a full charge the battery will power the electric motor all the way up to the electronically-limited 100 mph top speed, completed unassisted.

That's even better.

[Galaxy]

If the battery is drained. If you have a full charge the battery will power the electric motor all the way up to the electronically-limited 100 mph top speed, completed unassisted.

Wait, that was the original claim.

If I understand this correctly, at 70mph the combustion engine will always kick in to mechanically assist the e- engines.

[Nethead]

I was just thinking along the same lines when I heard a discussion about the Nissan Leaf on NPR this morning.  
I filled the tank on the Mazda3 last night and drove it to work today.  Commute is 6 miles of city streets, followed by 17 miles of freeway, and then another 5 miles of city streets.  I averaged 39.6 MPG going the speed limits or keeping up with the flow of traffic (usually 65-70 on the freeway). I go about 450-500 miles between fillups.  The car cost us $15,600 + TTL in Feb 2006.  I could pick up a 2011 model for probably 17-18K today.
I don't have to carry my own gas powered battery charger around unlike a volt owner.
I don't worry about battery charge life and being stranded like a leaf owner does.  Very limited charging infrastructure currently exists.
I don't have to invest $2,500 in a 220V charging station for my house, like a leaf owner does if they want a full charge in under something like 16 hours.  
I could buy two Mazda3s for the price of one Volt or a new Mazda3 and a good used Miata for the price of a Leaf.
I wouldn't be deluding myself about no pollution from a Leaf or green footprint from the Volt if I bought and drove the Kazda3  Electricity generation pollutes as does battery production.
I woulden't be transferring some of my ownership costs to the U.S. taxpayer like Leaf and Volt owners do.
I have one vehicle that can be used efficiently for both commuting and longer trips, unlike the Leaf.
Now someone explain to my why anyone would buy one of these things other than to feel good about "saving the planet" or other silly reasons.

Once again, EtypeJohn enumerates the issues concisely and objectively.  

Fundamentally, the Volt offers the performance of a Malibu for the price of a CTS.  

Gasoline would hafta be about $11.00/gallon for this to make economic sense.  Even when gasoline costs less than that, there are more economical alternatives.  In fact, If gasoline costs about $111.00/gallon, there are STILL more economical alternatives.  

I fear that Volt purchasers will be the butt of EcoJokes for many years to come.  Just like the hideous Corvair and the putrid Vega, the auto rags will rave about Volts at first (although that's tempering with every new revelation about the true capabilities and functioning of the Dolt--I mean Volt), and then laugh at the Volt a decade down the road and talk like everyone was fooled by GM but them.  

Woe be the early owners of the Volt--the new Camaro contained nothing new and had a myriad of warranty issues not seen since the intro of those rebadged GM Euro minivans which had the worst reliability issues of any newly-introduced vehicle since Consumer Reports began keeping records (the Chevy Venture, I believe it was...).  Now add the Volt's complexity into the mix and you cannot avoid asking yourself "Is this the vehicle that will do in an already weakened General Motors?"  Of course the taxpayers will be called upon to save The General's ass again, so I reckon there's nothing to worry about.  Maybe a Volt buy-back program called Cash for Flunkers will be instituted "for the welfare and benefit of the American people."

Wiser would be to withdraw the Volt before it hits the dealerships and rework it into a vehicle that is reliable plus able to travel a REAL one hundred miles on a charge (as opposed to a Marketing Department one hundred miles on a charge).  Anything less than one hundred miles on a charge makes the Volt a celebrity's third or fourth four-wheeled EcoToy to be seen in when arriving at rallies and fund-raisers.  Of course, there is the possibility of a taxpayer reVOLT about any further funding of such an underachieving first effort (typical day-to-day situations seem to yield an electricity-only range in the low thirties in flat country--San Francisco may present a whole 'nother set of issues, but at least in SF they have public transportation readily available).  Has the Tea Party weighed in on this?

It's not that the idea of a hybrid (and since the Volt actually does have drive wheels that can be turned by its internal combustion engine, it is just a plug-in hybrid) with a decent range is bad, it's just that any hybrid--or any of the actual truly electric vehicles--with a range under one hundred miles electrically cannot realistically be considered to have a decent range for any one-vehicle owner.  

GM would be smart to delay that IPO stock offering for a long, long time...

[Byteme]

Wait, that was the original claim.

If I understand this correctly, at 70mph the combustion engine will always kick in to mechanically assist the e- engines.

That's what the article said.  "However, under certain circumstances ? speeds near or above 70 mph ? the engine will directly drive the front wheels in conjunction with the electric motors.""

Does this mean the electric motors don't have the capacity to handle speeds above 70?  Or above those speeds the battery is drained too quickly if it's the sole provider of motive force? 

[Byteme]

GM's responded as reported in USA today

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

General Motors has shifted into damage-control mode -- just like its bad ol' days -- as it fights media blasts about the new Chevrolet Volt "extended-range electric." Several news outlets charge that they were misled about Volt's powertrain and that it isn't as unconventional or gas-mileage thrifty as billed.


For the past couple of years, GM has insisted that the powertrain of its breakthrough car wasn't like a plug-in hybrid. The auxiliary gas engine in the car never directly drove the wheels, but only ran as needed to recharge the car's battery, which drives the wheels. That's why all, including Drive On, have called it an extended-range electric instead of a plug-in.

But with an embargo on driving impressions on the Volt having lifted, several say that the car's wheels are in effect -- if not directly-- driven by the engine when speeds exceed 70 miles per hour and the battery is depleted. Edmunds.com's Inside Line wrote a piece headlined "GM lied: Chevy Volt not a true EV." Popular Mechanics and Motor Trend both question GM's 230 mile-a-gallon claim, saying they received real-world mileage from the 20s to the 40s. Writes Ray Wert, editor-in-chief of Jalopnik.com:

It's enough for us to wonder why GM pushed the 230-mpg number in the first place and why they didn't just come clean on the powertrain this summer when asked a straightforward question.

As a result, GM has posted a full-throated defense on its media website. It says:

The engineering of the Voltec electric drive unit is very sophisticated. As part of the media launch, we're diving deeper into how the system works than we have in the past. We did not share all the details until now because the information was competitive and we awaited patent approvals. Following a small number of inaccurate media reports, we want to clarify a few points.

The Volt has an innovative electric drive system that can deliver power in both pure electric and extended range driving. The Voltec electric drive cannot operate without power from the electric motors. If the traction motor is disabled, the range-extending internal combustion engine cannot drive the vehicle by itself.

There is no direct mechanical connection (fixed gear ratio) between the Volt's extended-range 1.4L engine and the drive wheels. In extended-range driving, the engine generates power that is fed through the drive unit and is balanced by the generator and traction motor. The resulting power flow provides a 10 to 15 percent improvement in highway fuel economy.

Our overriding objective in developing the Voltec electric drive was to deliver the most efficient, yet fun-to-drive experience in both pure electric and extended-range driving. We think our unique technology lives up to its most important promise: delivering our customers with the only EV that can be their primary vehicle, with EV operation for normal daily driving, and extended range driving for weekends, holidays, and longer trips ? all with no range anxiety.

Note what I put in bold.  In extended-range driving, the engine generates power that is fed through the drive unit and is balanced by the generator and traction motor.  What does that mean? is the gas engine sometimes connected to the electric motors that are also being powered fgrom the battery (no direct connection to the drive wheels).  However it works GM would be well served by coming out with a clear concise explanation.   

[NomisR]

It looks like it's exactly what Edmunds is stating, the engine provides help powers the front wheel over 70mph.  In a way, this isn't really that much different from the standard hybrids like GM claimed.  It's just a hybrid with a bigger battery, which a lot of people have already achieved by modifying their existing hybrid vehicles.  Well, they tried.. they're better off covering the damn thing with solar panels and claim that the solar panels would help recharge the battery to extend the range....

[FoMoJo]

This article Motor Trend Explains the Volt?s Powertrain explains it quite well. 

Some key points...Here?s how it works.

The drivetrain has a bit in common with the Prius and Ford hybrids. It consist of a single planetary gearset, two electric motors, and one gas engine. Motor Trend thinks the design is superior and more efficient than Toyota?s, and according to GM engineers with whom I spoke, is on the verge of patented.

There is a large central sun gear turned by the 149 horsepower electric motor at all times. Around it is a planetary carrier which turns the wheels. When the car is in charge depleting mode, an outer ring is locked to the case. The engine and generator are disengaged.

When the car reaches 70 mph the main motor spins too fast to be maximally efficient, and a clutch disengages the ring from the case. This allows the second electric motor to participate and both motors act in parallel to reach speeds of 101 mph with adequate power.

In charge sustaining mode, the gas engine goes on and clutches to the generator causing it to produce electricity to continue powering the main motor.

However of particular interest, when going above 70 mph in charge sustaining mode, and the generator gets coupled to the drivetrain, the gas engine participates in the motive force. GM says the engine never drives the wheels all by itself, but will participate in this particular situation in the name of efficiency, which is improved by 10 to 15 percent.

Some other good info in the article as well.

[Galaxy]

GM's responded as reported in USA today

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There is no direct mechanical connection (fixed gear ratio) between the Volt's extended-range 1.4L engine and the drive wheels.

If they define  "direct mechanical connection" as a fixed gear ratio then none of the cars on the market today with a transmission have a mechanical connection. Which is of course silly.

[AutobahnSHO]

Tards.
I could care less how it is actually powered. The 30-40mpg compared to 200+ mpg touted earlier is crazy.

[2o6]

This is actually really cool, and calling it noting more than a Plug-in Prius is a gross oversimplification on how the technology works.

[ifcar]

Tards.
I could care less how it is actually powered. The 30-40mpg compared to 200+ mpg touted earlier is crazy.

They never said the gas engine was that efficient. The 230 they were quoting is a compromise between the infinite miles per gallon you get if you stay on short drives vs. the 30-40 mpg you'd get if you never plugged it in.

[Morris Minor]

I was just thinking along the same lines when I heard a discussion about the Nissan Leaf on NPR this morning. 

I filled the tank on the Mazda3 last night and drove it to work today.  Commute is 6 miles of city streets, followed by 17 miles of freeway, and then another 5 miles of city streets.  I averaged 39.6 MPG going the speed limits or keeping up with the flow of traffic (usually 65-70 on the freeway). I go about 450-500 miles between fillups.  The car cost us $15,600 + TTL in Feb 2006.  I could pick up a 2011 model for probably 17-18K today.



I don't have to carry my own gas powered battery charger around unlike a volt owner.
I don't worry about battery charge life and being stranded like a leaf owner does.  Very limited charging infrastructure currently exists.
I don't have to invest $2,500 in a 220V charging station for my house, like a leaf owner does if they want a full charge in under something like 16 hours. 
I could buy two Mazda3s for the price of one Volt or a new Mazda3 and a good used Miata for the price of a Leaf.
I wouldn't be deluding myself about no pollution from a Leaf or green footprint from the Volt if I bought and drove the Kazda3  Electricity generation pollutes as does battery production.
I woulden't be transferring some of my ownership costs to the U.S. taxpayer like Leaf and Volt owners do.
I have one vehicle that can be used efficiently for both commuting and longer trips, unlike the Leaf.

Now someone explain to my why anyone would buy one of these things other than to feel good about "saving the planet" or other silly reasons.

John, you're looking for rationality, that most rare and precious of all commodities. One rational way of forcing people to use less gas would be to ditch all the efficiency standards, regulations & tax incentives and create instead a national $10/gal gasoline & diesel sales tax. Trouble is, that would conflict with politicians' (entirely rational) self-interest in staying elected until they die of old age.

[Byteme]

They never said the gas engine was that efficient. The 230 they were quoting is a compromise between the infinite miles per gallon you get if you stay on short drives vs. the 30-40 mpg you'd get if you never plugged it in.

This simply points out the problem of comparing electrric vehicles to gas and diesel powered vehicles.   There need to be consensus on an energy unit that is applicable to both.  Perhaps BTU, since the btu's required to generate the electricity that charges the Volt at home can be compared to the BTU content of the fuel in a regular vehicle.