Buick Regal GS

[cawimmer430]

And by the same token, I could call MB scandalous, on account of what they did to Chrysler.

And what would that be?

[GoCougs]

  Not this again.

This entitlement mentality smacks of stoich classism and unrepentant nationalism, and I'll just leave it at that.

Lexus is pure Americanism - it ain't who you are or what you've done, it's WHAT YOU DO that counts. And Lexus simply does it better than Mercedes-Benz.

[cawimmer430]

For the US, Lexuses are not "gussied up Toyotas"- they are their own brand with very little overlap outside of the Camry/ES line, and they've been doing better at separating those too lately too.

Their SUVs look like Toyotas. Always have, still do.

I'll admit that their sedans have made great strides in adapting their own design language - but then the HS250h and CT200h debuted - the former looks like a European Toyota Avensis clone while the CT200h looks like a Toyota economy car. I see no Lexus sedan design language in those two cars.

[cawimmer430]

Lexus is pure Americanism - it ain't who you are or what you've done, it's WHAT YOU DO that counts. And Lexus simply does it better than Mercedes-Benz.

What do they do? 

Boring sedans that are fully loaded and thus have no uniqueness among any of them except different body colors. Wow!

[2o6]

And what would that be?

Destroying them. Chrysler was on fire in the 90's, and when Damiler Benz acquired them, they pretty much starved them of all funding. Pretty much all good ideas that Chrysler had were built down to a price, and the end result was not pretty.

I've been in the:

IS
GS
LS
SC430
RX

And I really couldn't see what makes their insides so great. The IS and GS have unusually wide transmission tunnels which take up valuable leg space. The small BMW 118i I am currently driving feels more roomy upfront than a Lexus GS, which also has really thick doors that take up even more precious interior space. I'm 6'4" by the way.

I also don't see what makes their interiors so special. The wood they use often looks tacky and downright fake. The plastics are simply silver-colored rather than the typical matte black BMW/Mercedes (or light grey Audi) plastics.



MBs quality issues started in the mid-1990s when cost-cutting became a company philosophy. Prior to that cars like the W126 and W140 S-Class, W202 C-Class and W124 E-Class were still very reliable cars.

I also find it hilarious how overrated the 1989 LS400 was overall. Sure, a nice car that was definitely the most advanced luxury sedan in 1989, but it came on the market at a time when the Mercedes W126 S-Class and BMW 7-Series and Jaguar XJ were at the end of their product life cycle - meaning their successors were right around the corner. Hell, the W126 S-Class debuted in 1979 and development on it started back in 1972. Essentially the LS400 was competing against a car that was literally created in the mid-1970s and refreshed in 1985. Wow! The '89 LS400 must be some amazing machine if it can out-_____ a car from the mid 1970s.

The problem in the US was reliability. No one really cared about the engineering aspect.


If I pay 50K for a car, it'd better start in the morning. There were too many reliability issues with MB and BMW cars. That's one of the reasons that Lincoln and Cadillac didn't entirely fade into the background in the dark ages; they were crappy, but they still were generally reliable cars.

Their SUVs look like Toyotas. Always have, still do.

I'll admit that their sedans have made great strides in adapting their own design language - but then the HS250h and CT200h debuted - the former looks like a European Toyota Avensis clone while the CT200h looks like a Toyota economy car. I see no Lexus sedan design language in those two cars.

You're a blind MB shill....

 Not this again.

This entitlement mentality smacks of stoich classism and unrepentant nationalism, and I'll just leave it at that.

Lexus is pure Americanism - it ain't who you are or what you've done, it's WHAT YOU DO that counts. And Lexus simply does it better than Mercedes-Benz.

End of thread. Let's talk about the Regal again.

What do they do? 

Boring sedans that are fully loaded and thus have no uniqueness among any of them except different body colors. Wow!

And MB is unique? Having a car fall to pieces is good?

[93JC]

What do they do? 

Boring sedans that are fully loaded and thus have no uniqueness among any of them except different body colors. Wow!

I don't want to get sucked into this debate or discussion or whatever you want to call it, but I will ask this: what does Mercedes-Benz do that is 'unique'?

[cawimmer430]

Pretty much all good ideas that Chrysler had were built down to a price, and the end result was not pretty.

So you're calling the Crossfire, Pacifica and 300 "cheap"? They look and feel like solid products to me. The interiors might look average but they look well-made. And AFAIK those cars are pretty reliable. So what are you complaining about?

The problem in the US was reliability. No one really cared about the engineering aspect.


If I pay 50K for a car, it'd better start in the morning. There were too many reliability issues with MB and BMW cars. That's one of the reasons that Lincoln and Cadillac didn't entirely fade into the background in the dark ages; they were crappy, but they still were generally reliable cars.

If I pay $ 200 for a car I'd expect it to start anytime. 

You're a blind MB shill....

Huh? 








TOYOTA WRITTEN ALL OVER IT.

And MB is unique? Having a car fall to pieces is good?

Which MBs fell to pieces?

[cawimmer430]

I don't want to get sucked into this debate or discussion or whatever you want to call it, but I will ask this: what does Mercedes-Benz do that is 'unique'?

Every brand has something that makes them unique, including Lexus.

But GoCougs said that Lexus "does it better than Mercedes". Mercedes' has their philosophy and Lexus has theirs. Personally, I prefer MB over Lexus and that's no secret. It's a fascinating brand. There's an emotional connection I have with the brand because of aspects of their history and achievements etc. It's appealing, exciting, motivating etc.

Lexus? Empty. Nothing in it for me. BORING.

[2o6]

So you're calling the Crossfire, Pacifica and 300 "cheap"? They look and feel like solid products to me. The interiors might look average but they look well-made. And AFAIK those cars are pretty reliable. So what are you complaining about?

They're disgusting. See the Sebring, Chrysler PT (a car that has been on sale for 10 years), and their other products in the Dodge stable are pretty terrible. The Crossfire was a bastardized SLK, and was not as good as it was supposed to be. The 300 is really the only decent car to come out of Damiler-Chrysler.

If I pay $ 200 for a car I'd expect it to start anytime. 

I don't think you quite understand how bad MB was in the US. This happens to a lot of people. Advanced systems stop working for no reason at all, cars fail to start, ect, ect.



Huh? 








TOYOTA WRITTEN ALL OVER IT.




Your point?

Which MBs fell to pieces?

Raza has a W202 sitting in his driveway. Won't start. Rusty. This is unacceptable, and he is not the only one this has happened to. This has happened to a LOT of people.

[Laconian]

Back to the Regal...

[2o6]

I would buy one. It looks like an awesome car.

[93JC]

No more of this "Mercedes-Benz evokes an emotional connection to the brand" bullshit: what does Mercedes-Benz do, product-wise, that is unique? What makes the vehicles themselves, the machines, 'better' than a Lexus? Are they faster? More durable? More luxurious?

[Mustangfan2003]

My grandpa has a 98 Regal GS that looks like this



Could make a great sleeper. 

[thewizard16]

Every brand has something that makes them unique, including Lexus.

But GoCougs said that Lexus "does it better than Mercedes". Mercedes' has their philosophy and Lexus has theirs. Personally, I prefer MB over Lexus and that's no secret. It's a fascinating brand. There's an emotional connection I have with the brand because of aspects of their history and achievements etc. It's appealing, exciting, motivating etc.

Lexus? Empty. Nothing in it for me. BORING.

They were statistically more reliable than Mercedes for quite some time (don't know about recent figures), and some people love their Lexuses like you love your Mercedes. I also found the IS and LS to be more interesting and comfortable than the comparable BMW and Mercedes alternatives (but I probably will never be in the market for an LS, and I'd probably get an A4 instead of the IS, but my point remains that I felt more of a connection with those cars than the others). I didn't care for the GS however, and I'm not a huge fan of luxury SUVs to begin with, but I wouldn't buy an M-Class over an RX, for example. I've only known a couple people that had them (one had two of them), and they were plagued with electronics issues. At any rate, this has nothing to do with the thread. Your opinion is not fact regardless of how often you push it and repeat it. Lexus has succeeded, and the market, as well as the most influential magazines in the industry, consider them equivalent competitors to your favorite brands. I like you and most of your posts, but I think all of us are tired of you constantly bringing this up and making an issue of it. 

Back to the Regal. I think Buick is working hard to make this car appealing, but I would have changed the name first and foremost. When most people hear "Buick Regal", I think they're going to associate it more with it's lackluster, sub-par predecessors such as: .
The new styling is pretty handsome though, and I really like the new gauge cluster and cockpit design.  I think the power is perfectly sufficient for a car that size, but if sportiness is their goal, it needs another high-powered V6 as an option for a premium trim.

[cawimmer430]

They're disgusting. See the Sebring, Chrysler PT (a car that has been on sale for 10 years), and their other products in the Dodge stable are pretty terrible. The Crossfire was a bastardized SLK, and was not as good as it was supposed to be. The 300 is really the only decent car to come out of Damiler-Chrysler.

The Crossfire was never intended to be some Porsche Boxster rivaling performance car. Like the SLK, it's a cruiser with sporty pretensions.

The Sebring and PT Cruiser? Ok, I hear ya. Crap cars from what I read. Not really sure where the Daimler connection is here though. AFAIK both of these cars don't use MB technology. The PT Cruiser might use an MB diesel engine, I'm not sure and I'm to lazy to check.

I don't think you quite understand how bad MB was in the US. This happens to a lot of people. Advanced systems stop working for no reason at all, cars fail to start, ect, ect.

And there are tons of people out there who've had good experiences with their mid-1990s MBs etc.

Go on a Lexus forum. Tons of people there have issues with their Lexus. There are big and small problems there. Yet nobody dare uses the word "problem" with their overpriced Toyota in the same sentence...

Your point?

Badge engineered Toyotas. Literally zero development costs for the "Lexus" version of these cars. Slap on a fake gold "L" badge, add leather and voila, a Lexus is born. How cool is that!?

But more to the point - TOYOTA design. When I see those shapes I think of the Land Cruiser and Land Cruiser Prado. It's almost sad how these things were sold as luxury cars in the US as a Lexus LX and GX. They were friggin Toyotas. And that's really lame, not because they're bad cars, but because of the blatant badge engineering. No emotional appeal etc. to me.

Raza has a W202 sitting in his driveway. Won't start. Rusty. This is unacceptable, and he is not the only one this has happened to. This has happened to a LOT of people.

Since when does Raza have a W202? He has a W210.

And there are tons of W210s here still going strong. Hell, half the taxis here are W210s. There are quite a few W210 owners in our circle of friends - and we're not talking base model E200s but mid-range E240s and E320s. If these cars are the pieces of shit that Toyota Repo, excuse me, Consumer Reports, makes them out to be, I'd hear the complaints from these people. All cars can have issues, big or small. Based on what I hear from these guys, their cars are pretty much ok. No major problems.

[Laconian]

omg it will not stop

[Madman]

So Buick is giving us something that looks like the Opel Insignia OPC/Vauxhall Insignia VXR but without the 325 horsepower turbo V6 engine, without all wheel drive and without the Recaro seats?  WTF!?!

Same old GM: give the rest of the world the good stuff and fob us off with inferior, watered-down versions (at best) or complete garbage (at worst).

Personally, I'd rather just have the standard 200 horsepower turbo Regal and save the extra money by not buying what is little more than an appearance package.

Epic fail, GM.  Epic fail!  

[Colonel Cadillac]

Badge engineered Toyotas. Literally zero development costs for the "Lexus" version of these cars. Slap on a fake gold "L" badge, add leather and voila, a Lexus is born. How cool is that!?

But more to the point - TOYOTA design. When I see those shapes I think of the Land Cruiser and Land Cruiser Prado. It's almost sad how these things were sold as luxury cars in the US as a Lexus LX and GX. They were friggin Toyotas. And that's really lame, not because they're bad cars, but because of the blatant badge engineering. No emotional appeal etc. to me.

Those Lexus SUVs are really nice and the GX has always been pretty reasonably priced.

[Laconian]

So Buick is giving us something that looks like the Opel Insignia OPC/Vauxhall Insignia VXR but without the 325 horsepower turbo V6 engine, without all wheel drive and without the Recaro seats?  WTF!?!

Same old GM: give the rest of the world the good stuff and fob us off with inferior, watered-down versions (at best) or complete garbage (at worst).

Personally, I'd rather just have the standard 200 horsepower turbo Regal and save the extra money by not buying what is little more than an appearance package.

Epic fail, GM.  Epic fail! 

GM's marketers sabotage each brand's potential greatness by imposing artificial ceilings on what each brand is capable of doing - "oh no, better not put a turbo V6 on this car, that might cannibalize Cadillac's market!" The manner in which the GM beancounters clip the wings of the lesser brands is exactly why Buick can never ever aspire to be a Tier 2 luxury brand.

[Vinsanity]

Every brand has something that makes them unique, including Lexus.

But GoCougs said that Lexus "does it better than Mercedes". Mercedes' has their philosophy and Lexus has theirs. Personally, I prefer MB over Lexus and that's no secret. It's a fascinating brand. There's an emotional connection I have with the brand because of aspects of their history and achievements etc. It's appealing, exciting, motivating etc.

Lexus? Empty. Nothing in it for me. BORING.

and without the H&H? (which we have established means objectively little to Americans), Mercedes is just as boring as Lexus.

[Vinsanity]

I would buy one. It looks like an awesome car.

over a Maxima or CC?

[2o6]

over a Maxima or CC?

The Maxima is ugly, and the VW CC IMO isn't quite as pretty.

[the Teuton]

The Maxima is ugly, and the VW CC IMO isn't quite as pretty.

The Maxima is huge and powerful. The CC is about one of the best luxury values on the market for the discerning German snob on a budget. These two cars will likely compete directly here in the US.

[GoCougs]

What do they do? 

Boring sedans that are fully loaded and thus have no uniqueness among any of them except different body colors. Wow!

Lexus builds a better quality and more reliable product.

That M-B did this or that 20, 50 or 100 years ago has zero bearing on the product being produced today. 

[2o6]

The Maxima is huge and powerful. The CC is about one of the best luxury values on the market for the discerning German snob on a budget. These two cars will likely compete directly here in the US.

I would take the Regal over both.

[the Teuton]

I would take the Regal over both.

The CC is a gem. My former gay boss at Enterprise had one, and I thought it was an incredibly cool, stylish car.

[2o6]

The CC is a gem. My former gay boss at Enterprise had one, and I thought it was an incredibly cool, stylish car.

They both are nice vehicles, but I'm more attracted to the Regal.

[Submariner]

and without the H&H? (which we have established means objectively little to Americans), Mercedes is just as boring as Lexus.

That's NOT true - even if their vehicles were equal in terms of "excitement" (which only applies to the LF-H and IS-F) Mercedes' history, especially in motor sports, is infinitely more interesting (due in large part to Lexus being a 20 or so year old brand)

[2o6]

Yeah, the average consumer could not care less.

[Submariner]

Lexus builds a better quality and more reliable product.

That M-B did this or that 20, 50 or 100 years ago has zero bearing on the product being produced today. 

At least Merc's don't slam into walls at 90 miles an hour. 

Lexus has been having a great deal of trouble, first with their GX SUV's, then with the brand as a whole.  On the Other hand, Merc has been making strides in their vehicle quality.  I'm not sure if they have made it back to where they should be, but it's a lot closer than you think.