Input on a car for my brother

[hotrodalex]

Accord is the logical choice. Only thing the Legacy really have going for it is the AWD, which I don't think is completely necessary, and looks. Unless he really enjoys driving it, the Accord makes more sense.

[the Teuton]

Trust me, I've driven underpowered AWD cars.  They're terrible.  Everything feels so slow and dimwitted.  And there are no options for fun because you don't have the power to take advantage of AWD.  I had the chance to get an AWD 1.8T Passat when I was buying in 04 and never once regretted getting the FWD.  FWD is just more fun 99% of the time. 

You've never driven a plebeian car, so I discredit your opinion.

[The Pirate]

Has your brother driven them?

He has not.  I've driven each car (not those exact ones, and not back to back).  I'll fully admit that I'm a little biased towards Hondas (current generations excluded).  I put 90K trouble free miles on my Civic in 3 years (seriously: brakes, tires and oil changes), and sold it to a friend who's still driving it, with almost 200K miles.

He knows he needs to drive them, it's just a matter of getting to the dealer (300 miles away).

[The Pirate]

First snow storm will cause awd envy...

Perhaps.  I don't feel AWD to be necessary though.  We grew up in NY's southern tier, where lake effect snow is common.  We were both driving FWD or RWD vehicles the whole time, too.  And Albany just doesn't get that much snow.

[The Pirate]

Thanks for all the input, guys.  He certainly will drive them both and see what he likes, but I really appreciate all the info.

[CALL_911]

where lake effect snow is common. 

Fucking love that shit.

[The Pirate]

Fucking love that shit.

Hehe, my brother is actually in Binghamton til Friday for business.

[CALL_911]

Hehe, my brother is actually in Binghamton til Friday for business.

Have you spent a meaningful amount of time in Binghamton? What bars did you go to? I'm kind of curious, since I'd never go to the bars we go to after I turn, say, 21.

[omicron]

Accord. All things being equal, go for the car less well-travelled.

[omicron]

Mind you, I'd probably have to kill myself.

[WookieOnRitalin]

Since I don't want to make another thread about it and its eery similarity to this thread I'll put this here.

Narrowed down my car search to two cars that I will be driving tomorrow and will make a decision on after I drive them.

First car:
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T: 55k miles. 14,250 (negotiable)




Key Features:
Leather
Power Seating
Dual Climate Control
New Tires
Telescoping Steering Wheel

Not Here:
Moonroof
Upgraded Stereo

Second car:
2009 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Special Edition: 45k miles. 13,750 (no haggle)




Key Features:
Power Seating
Moonroof
Upgraded Harmon Sound System
AWD

Not Here:
Leather
Automatic Climate Control

They are both at the same dealer. I will be driving them both tomorrow. Any favorites or input? Never driven either of these vehicles before in any other guise or situation.

[CJ]

The Saab's really neat, but GM really fucked them over with quality control and overall quality. The Subaru by far.

[Colonel Cadillac]

The Saab's really neat, but GM really fucked them over with quality control and overall quality. The Subaru by far.

GM fucked them over with quality control and overall quality?? You sir seem to have missed the era of completely unreliable Saabs.

[CJ]

I don't think they improved that much since that era. Get into a used Saab from the past few years and it'll be falling apart. I checked out a 9-3 a few months ago. It was a 2007 with 50k-ish, but don't remember the exact mileage. It was not holding up very well.

[CALL_911]

That Saab doesn't strike me as a very good deal. Considering you can get new ones for $21k, $15k for a 2-3 year old example with 55k miles seems like a ripoff.

That said, it's a fun car. You wouldn't consider buying it with a manual transmission?

[Raza]

You've never driven a plebeian car, so I discredit your opinion.

I've driven a plebeian car.  Sure, not on the shitbox level of what you've owned, but I have experience in the Scion xB, Paseo, Camry, Corolla, and other shitty cars.  I even drove a Kia once. 

[Raza]

Since I don't want to make another thread about it and its eery similarity to this thread I'll put this here.

Narrowed down my car search to two cars that I will be driving tomorrow and will make a decision on after I drive them.

First car:
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T: 55k miles. 14,250 (negotiable)




Key Features:
Leather
Power Seating
Dual Climate Control
New Tires
Telescoping Steering Wheel

Not Here:
Moonroof
Upgraded Stereo

Second car:
2009 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Special Edition: 45k miles. 13,750 (no haggle)




Key Features:
Power Seating
Moonroof
Upgraded Harmon Sound System
AWD

Not Here:
Leather
Automatic Climate Control

They are both at the same dealer. I will be driving them both tomorrow. Any favorites or input? Never driven either of these vehicles before in any other guise or situation.

Saab a million times over.  Find a stick though.

[Cookie Monster]

I do like the Saab. You should get a stick though.

[the Teuton]

Perhaps he should get that generation of Saab with a stick...

...or a turbo Legacy.

[68_427]

Do not get the Saab.  They start falling apart around 50k miles.

[2o6]

I don't think they improved that much since that era. Get into a used Saab from the past few years and it'll be falling apart. I checked out a 9-3 a few months ago. It was a 2007 with 50k-ish, but don't remember the exact mileage. It was not holding up very well.

I test drove an 08' and the shifter knob came off in my hand.

[WookieOnRitalin]

That Saab doesn't strike me as a very good deal. Considering you can get new ones for $21k, $15k for a 2-3 year old example with 55k miles seems like a ripoff.

That said, it's a fun car. You wouldn't consider buying it with a manual transmission?

There are no low mileage Saab's around here with a stick at that price.

The price is negotiable and I will negotiate it down considering I'm back to back driving against a newer car with less miles for a lesser price. I would expect close to same discount for the Saab that they have for the Subaru. According to CarGurus, they knocked off 2200 off (or 15%) the Subaru and only around 900 on the Saab. The Saab with the same discount would be at 12,750 which is where I will start any negotiations on the Saab.

As to the reliability issues: 

I have not read horrid things about the 9-3. Edmunds rates it pretty reliable. http://www.edmunds.com/used/2008/saab/93/100908880/reliability.html

I have not heard much putterage from ConsumerGuide either. Most of the quality issues seemed to be associated with earlier models. http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2003-to-2010-saab-9-3-2.htm

I also have concerns about Saab reliability despite the data that shows otherwise. I will point this out to the dealer at negotiations assuming the Saab is the pick.

[WookieOnRitalin]

So, drove both of the vehicles today and here's the conclusion I came to after spending 30 minutes in each vehicle.

Saab a million times over. 

Here's what's funny. I've read a bunch of you guys on here talk about how great Subarus are so I went into the Legacy with optimistic expectations. Now, I have no doubt that most Subarus are nice cars, but this Legacy was a dud in terms of quality. I stepped into it after the Saab and the quality difference was immediate. The plastics in the Legacy are much worse. Chinzier. I played around and had trim pieces and attachments fall into my hands. I promptly handed them to the dealer as they fell apart. I did most of my interior checking after I was driving it which was not a bad experience.

Since this is relevant to this thread, I'll post my impressions of the Legacy.

1: Noisy as hell
2: Light steering, but responsive. It really was not as athletic as I thought it would be.
3: Decently peppy engine; though lacks any real hunger for acceleration (a Turbo model would have solved this problem)
4: Really rough ride. You can really feel every bump in the road.
5: Seats felt great though not taken care of very well by previous owner. Side bolsters were awesome. I felt snug as a bug.
6: The positioning and operation of the power mirrors was awkward. It took a second to figure it out. I guess it's what you get used to. I had to ask the dealer where the damn thing was. This could be my fault as I can be totally incompetent at times.
7: The interior was just a POS. My 93 Jeep GC has held up better after 17 years and 315k miles. There is no excuse for absolute fail there. Everything electrical does not work properly in the vehicle, but I'll be damned if it's not in the same place that it started. Nothing has broke. Nothing is out of alignment. This Subaru had numerous examples that just pissed me off.
8: Trunk is not as usable as I'd like. It's smallish. It also has no release for the 60-40 from the trunk side. This was going to be weird no matter what car I looked at. The Saab's by comparison is just massive with a release from the trunk.
9: Door storage was rather unusable in the Subaru as well.
10: Rear seat head room is tight. I'm 5'10 and my hair was hitting the top of the cabin.

I was just massively disappointed. I do not see how this model Legacy could ever hope to beat out an Accord. It just will not and should not happen. I may have experienced a dud. The deal breaker was the crappy interior quality. It was clearly not well maintained.

The Saab on the other hand was just great.

Some impressions...

1: Turbo was smooth. Sweet, effortless acceleration.
2: Quiet. We were up at 80 on the highway and it no where felt like 80. It felt very much how Brady describes the Kizashi vs the Jetta. Kizashi is much more composed as higher speeds. This would be the case for this 9-3. You never really feel your speed. Part of that is the ride.
3: Ride was excellent. It was not too soft. A great compromise. In fact, it reminds me a lot of the ride in an Accord.
4: Handling is predictable. Steering was good. Well weighted. I really did not have an opportunity to have too much fun with it. Just some fun on on ramps, quick maneuvers (U-Turns, merging, passing).
5: Interior was in excellent shape. The only noticeable flaw I found was the parking break was a little off center to where it's supposed to line up.
6: Seats were comfy, but not particularly sporty. Good support. Power seating and Telescoping steering made finding a comfortable driving position pretty easy.
7: I hate the stupid blind spot mirror on the right side mirror. It just messed with my head. I almost avoided looking into it. I assume I'd get used to it. Just weird.
8: As said before, the trunk is massive. Unlock for the rear seats is also in the trunk.
9: The center stack is pretty damn busy. I do not think I have ever seen so many damn buttons in one vehicle. Sport mode. Night Panel mode. It seems like there's actually spots for more switches, but maybe they were only available on higher trims?
10: Sliding armrest could potentially be a problem. It works great now, but I've always wondered how good those things really are. It slides easy. Almost too easy. It stayed in place during driving, but I am not sure how much I trust it.
11: Seat back pockets were nice. I've never owned a car that did not have them.

All in all. The 9-3 was just light years better than the Legacy. It was easy to see their differences. It very much felt like a Swedish Accord. It's got great all around strength. Good balance.

So I will be signing my life away for the Saab on Saturday. 4k down at 13,500. We met half way for price which seemed reasonable considering all the service (oil change, brand new tires, coolant service, transmission service, etc) they had done to the vehicle as well.

I'll throw up some pics when the deed is done.

.......................

Adam, I'd be surprised if your brother did not come out of his comparison with the Accord. It's just a better car. There's just no way else to get around it. If he finds something special about the Legacy then I'd like to know cause it really is not that special.

[The Pirate]

.......................

Adam, I'd be surprised if your brother did not come out of his comparison with the Accord. It's just a better car. There's just no way else to get around it. If he finds something special about the Legacy then I'd like to know cause it really is not that special.

Congrats.  I rather like that gen of 9-3 myself.  Is the ignition still on the floor?

And yeah, in my mind, the Accord is leading right now.  He's not much of a car guy.  He likes driving my Mazda 'cause it's nimble and peppy, but he really has no concept of steering feel or brake feel or ride/handling trade-offs.  More than likely he's going to test drive both and ask me what to buy.

[WookieOnRitalin]

Congrats.  I rather like that gen of 9-3 myself.  Is the ignition still on the floor?

And yeah, in my mind, the Accord is leading right now.  He's not much of a car guy.  He likes driving my Mazda 'cause it's nimble and peppy, but he really has no concept of steering feel or brake feel or ride/handling trade-offs.  More than likely he's going to test drive both and ask me what to buy.

Yup. Still there. I remember when I first saw it in another Saab. Freaked me out at first. I was a Valet at the time and I was wondering, where the hell the damn ignition was.

I was actually hoping to find a Protege5 with under 60k miles on it, but no such luck. The last gen Protege was great. Peppy. Comfortable. I actually had a soft spot for it and the last Millenia. I owned a RWD '89 929 and it's still my favorite car I've owned.

[Laconian]

I was actually hoping to find a Protege5 with under 60k miles on it, but no such luck. The last gen Protege was great. Peppy. Comfortable. I actually had a soft spot for it and the last Millenia. I owned a RWD '89 929 and it's still my favorite car I've owned.

I always wondered what those 929s were like. I found a good deal on one but passed up on it because it was RWD, got a Camry with more miles instead. The Camry served me well through college, but sometimes I wonder at what could have been...

[WookieOnRitalin]

I always wondered what those 929s were like. I found a good deal on one but passed up on it because it was RWD, got a Camry with more miles instead. The Camry served me well through college, but sometimes I wonder at what could have been...

You would have loved it. Great car. 3.0L V6 punching out 160 hp. Peppy. Though not really frugal. I averaged around 21 mpg. Tasteful tan leather and brown interior. Seats were plush. Power everything. Heated seats. Sunroof. Oscillating vents. Good size trunk. One of the door handles didn't work (right rear). Didn't care. Still loved it. I miss that damn thing. I let my dad borrow it for a weekend and it never came back.

[GoCougs]

I too was looking at Legacy when I bought my '05 Accord. Wookie is 100% correct, and it doesn't have to do with maintenance. Much is compromised to get AWD at that price point. In those generations of those cars (both previous to what is available now), the Accord is the far higher quality vehicle.

[the Teuton]

Subarus have hollow-sounding doors, windows that you're going to worry will fall down inside the door if people close it too many times by the glass, newer ones have thinner-sounding, cheaper plastic.

But the cars are charming. I'm a huge fan of the steering feel--albeit it is a bit numb on center.

It's light and accurate.

[omicron]

Subarus have hollow-sounding doors, windows that you're going to worry will fall down inside the door if people close it too many times by the glass, newer ones have thinner-sounding, cheaper plastic.

But the cars are charming. I'm a huge fan of the steering feel--albeit it is a bit numb on center.

It's light and accurate.

People who close frameless doors by fingering the windows should be shot.