Confession

[Tave]

IMO, I agree with Cougs. The 7 has a "manual" mode and it stinks. Shifts never come when you want them to and it shifts on its own all too often. Left in auto mode it's much better.

That's not what he was talking about. He was comparing "manual mode" to just slamming a floor-mounted A/T shifter between D-3-2-1, not leaving it in D.

[GoCougs]

Floor-mounted A/T shifters are not designed to shift on-the-fly often, and as a result make a poor substitute for a nice manumatic setup, if for no other reason than simple ergonomics and layout. And ergonomics and layout can count for a lot. (3-on-the-tree manual transmissions, anyone?)

Sure they are designed to be shifted as often as the driver desires, and ergonomics? Uh, where is the shifter for a traditional M/T located???

[Tave]

Sure they are designed to be shifted as often as the driver desires,

Nope, they're designed with the knowledge in mind that 99.99% of drivers will leave them in D and never touch them save to put them back in P. Not that it will damage the transmission, but there is zero effort gone into making shifting on-the-fly a pleasant experience.

and ergonomics? Uh, where is the shifter for a traditional M/T located???

1) Ergonomics is more than location.

2) Even just talking location, steering-column shift paddles are obviously ergonomically superior to floor shifters, A/T or M/T.

[GoCougs]

Nope, they're designed with the knowledge in mind that 99.99% of drivers will leave them in D and never touch them save to put them back in P. Not that it will damage the transmission, but there is zero effort gone into making shifting on-the-fly a pleasant experience.

Have you ever driven a floor-mounted A/T shifted vehicle? How is it NOT a pleasant experience from shifting from D down into the lower gates and/or shifting in to the (poser) manumatic gate?

1) Ergonomics is more than location.

2) Even just talking location, steering-column shift paddles are obviously ergonomically superior to floor shifters, A/T or M/T.

You do realize paddle shifters are affixed to the steering column, correct? How "ergonomic" is that when you're turning the wheel? Even F1 doesn't use "F1 paddle shifters" anymore - shifting is done by way buttons on the steering wheel (meaning "shifters" rotate with the wheel).

[2o6]

It's super easy to pick past the wrong gear: I.E shift from 1 to 3.

[SVT666]

Have you ever driven a floor-mounted A/T shifted vehicle? How is it NOT a pleasant experience from shifting from D down into the lower gates and/or shifting in to the (poser) manumatic gate?

Have you ever driven a car with paddles?  Didn't think so.  If you had, you would know you are talking out of your ass.

You do realize paddle shifters are affixed to the steering column, correct? How "ergonomic" is that when you're turning the wheel? Even F1 doesn't use "F1 paddle shifters" anymore - shifting is done by way buttons on the steering wheel (meaning "shifters" rotate with the wheel).

If you're shifting gears in a corner so tight you can't reach the paddles then you are doing something really wrong Cougs.

[2o6]

Have you ever driven a car with paddles?  Didn't think so.  If you had, you would know you are talking out of your ass.
If you're shifting gears in a corner so tight you can't reach the paddles then you are doing something really wrong Cougs.

Even so, a lot of paddles are on the wheel.

[SVT666]

Even so, a lot of paddles are on the wheel.

Very few.  I can't even remember the last one that had them attached to the wheel.

[93JC]

Most paddles are fixed to the wheel not the column.

[GoCougs]

Even so, a lot of paddles are on the wheel.

Most paddles are fixed to the wheel not the column.

Oh, for crying out loud you guys. Please search youtube for videos of a G37 or F430 with paddle shifters. The paddles are plainly affixed to the column (i.e., they do not turn with the wheel).

[GoCougs]

Feel free to youtube F430/F458/F599 videos and you'll see that paddle length is designed such that with hands at 10 and 2 o'clock under many track conditions the fingers never rotate much past the paddle as the driver winds through the course.

Why is this? High steering gear ratio (low turns lock-to-lock) and lots of over steer. The G37 is the exact opposite; far lower steering ratio and plenty of under steer. There is FAR more steering wheel input needed to get a G37 around a road course, making shifting with paddle shifters much more difficult.

Any more questions?

[2o6]

It really depends on the car and the setup.

[CJ]

I know the GTI's paddles are affixed to the steering wheel.

[Tave]

Have you ever driven a floor-mounted A/T shifted vehicle?

Many. One today in fact. Are you under the misguided impression that floor-mounted A/T shifters are somehow exotic?

How is it NOT a pleasant experience from shifting from D down into the lower gates and/or shifting in to the (poser) manumatic gate?

In just about every way imaginable. For instance in the one I just drove, it took almost no effort to move the lever between the points. A small nudge sends it from 1 all the way to N. I've actually done that accidentally (well, D to N) on at least two occasions.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I've driven an offset pattern Acura that was an absolute nightmare to manhandle. It was like the J-gate on steroids.

Then of course you invariably have autos that catch in between the points, so that they tend to slip into one or the other on their own accord. That's always a blast.


I'm a little surprised we're having this conversation. In what ways do you think traditional autos are FUN to shift manually? I can't think of any.


Of course you don't have any of these issues with paddle shifters, just: snick, snick, snick.

You do realize paddle shifters are affixed to the steering column, correct? How "ergonomic" is that when you're turning the wheel? Even F1 doesn't use "F1 paddle shifters" anymore - shifting is done by way buttons on the steering wheel (meaning "shifters" rotate with the wheel).

A minor gripe which is totally undercut by your second sentence, not to mention you're starting to ramble.

[cawimmer430]

Our new E350 CGI has paddle shifters. Program the transmission into 'M' mode and you can shift your own gears via these paddle shifters. The shift-responses are surprisingly quick to.

It's not a feature I often use when I am driving the car though since the 7Gtronic is already very good at selecting the correct gear. And I've admittedly not driven the car very sporty yet - that'll have to wait until the summer! 

[sportyaccordy]

Feel free to youtube F430/F458/F599 videos and you'll see that paddle length is designed such that with hands at 10 and 2 o'clock under many track conditions the fingers never rotate much past the paddle as the driver winds through the course.

Why is this? High steering gear ratio (low turns lock-to-lock) and lots of over steer. The G37 is the exact opposite; far lower steering ratio and plenty of under steer. There is FAR more steering wheel input needed to get a G37 around a road course, making shifting with paddle shifters much more difficult.

Any more questions?

Again you know not of what you speak

1 there are spirited driving techniques that involve crossing the hands to keep from awkward hand placement

2 if you're shifting mid-turn, you fucked up, you should have downshifted while braking to stay in the car's powerband when powering out of the turn

3 if you think shifting mid turn is "more difficult" with a throttle blipping paddle shifting manumatic, I'd love to here how it's easier with a floor mounted MT & clutch pedal

Floor mounted gate only shifted ATs suck for manual shifting, period.

Again u know not what u speak of; it's probably been decades since you enjoyed a car/drove a stickshift so I'm not sure why u feel u are some kind of authority.

IMO, I agree with Cougs. The 7 has a "manual" mode and it stinks. Shifts never come when you want them to and it shifts on its own all too often. Left in auto mode it's much better.

I really want to try a DSG equipped GTI or EVO X. However, I think I'd still go with a real manual. Executing perfect shifts is just too fun for me.

MTs and ATs are only of value if they're GOOD. Obviously a manumatic AT that doesn't respond to inputs isn't a good one (i.e. my dad's M45. what a joke). Likewise a shitty M/T doesn't help (i.e. VQ30 Maxima gearboxes/clutches. Yeech. Would rather they did a 5AT). A well programmed AT is fun.

[SVT666]

I agree Sporty.  The auto in the G37 when in Sport mode will hold gears in aggressive driving even when you let off the gas.  The programming in the new G37's auto tranny is the best I've ever driven.

[MrH]

Well, I disagree.  I understand the use of paddle shifters in something like a 911 Turbo S.  The thing is so damn fast, it'd be hard to keep up with by shifting manually.

I think I'm probably the only one here with track experience with a DSG (drove the ring in a Scirocco with a DSG).  It has its benefits on the track, but I'll take a row-your-own for everyday driving.  Largely depends on the car I suppose, too.  A Porsche Panamera wouldn't work as well with a manual as my Miata does.  For most situations though, I'll take a conventional six-speed.

[SVT_Power]

It's really hard for me to shift gears without a clutch.  The two actions seem to be inextricably linked in my mind.

You dinosaur... 

[Vinsanity]

IIRC, it was a G37 that also made me a believer in paddle shifters. It responds quite well for a torque converter slushbox, and the rev-matched downshifts are neat, especially when coming to a stop for a red light. It's probably the best transmission for commuting through traffic.

[ChrisV]

In just about every way imaginable. For instance in the one I just drove, it took almost no effort to move the lever between the points. A small nudge sends it from 1 all the way to N. I've actually done that accidentally (well, D to N) on at least two occasions.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I've driven an offset pattern Acura that was an absolute nightmare to manhandle. It was like the J-gate on steroids.

Then of course you invariably have autos that catch in between the points, so that they tend to slip into one or the other on their own accord. That's always a blast.

Interesting that I'm daily driving one that doesn't have any of the issues you mentioned.

I'm a little surprised we're having this conversation. In what ways do you think traditional autos are FUN to shift manually? I can't think of any.

I can. But then again, I've drivne a LOT more than you have, including classic musclecars with floor mounted shifters and shift kits in teh performacne automatics.

Wonder how many people complaing (like, say, you) have driven many of them?

I also find it interesting that there's a thread in this forum about indoor karting and how tiring and fun it is. For me, at least, that's what's fun about driving, and in the karts, you never shift or push a clutch pedal at all, yet you ARE driving them.

As I've said, I prefer a good manual, but most of the complaints about automatics or flappy paddle transmissions are laughable at best.

[Tave]

You've completely misunderstood me. I wasn't hating on automatics, I was simply saying a good paddle shift A/T is better at shifting on the fly than most floor-mounted A/T shifters. Why? Obviously one is designed to shift on the fly, while the other is designed to be mostly left alone.

I actually enjoy automatic transmissions.

I can. But then again, I've drivne a LOT more than you have, including classic musclecars with floor mounted shifters and shift kits in teh performacne automatics.

Wonder how many people complaing (like, say, you) have driven many of them?

Does a 1969 Camaro SS w/ performance automatic count?

Well let me tell you, for all the fun I had in that car, I never thought, "WOW, this floor mounted shifter is so awesome!"

As I've said, I prefer a good manual, but most of the complaints about automatics or flappy paddle transmissions are laughable at best.

Where did I ever say I prefer manuals to automatics? Where did I ever say I prefer paddle shifters to a traditional auto?






Once again, ChrisV explodes into his opinion-based-on-facts-oh-look-I-used-my-left-foot-automatics-have-their-place RAGE and completely fails to grasp the topic at hand.

[Tave]

Interesting that I'm daily driving one that doesn't have any of the issues you mentioned.

Not really. One expects the most expensive transmission on the most expensive model of one of the most expensive sports-sedan manufacturers to be pretty damn good.

[Raza]

It's a waste of time because just as Tuets says it provides zero functional advantage over a floor-mounted A/T shifter (the likes of which have been in cars for decades).

They're generally faster, less likely to mis-shift, and smoother.  I drove my E320 with tiptronic and my brother's E320 with the gate shifter.  My car shifted better 100% of the time. 

[Raza]

I think I'm probably the only one here with track experience with a DSG (drove the ring in a Scirocco with a DSG).  It has its benefits on the track, but I'll take a row-your-own for everyday driving.  Largely depends on the car I suppose, too.  A Porsche Panamera wouldn't work as well with a manual as my Miata does.  For most situations though, I'll take a conventional six-speed.

I agree with you.  Race technology is great for racing, but on the street, I'm not about shaving .00001 from each lap, I'm about enjoying my interaction with the car to the fullest.  For me, that means three pedals, as well as other things.  If my choices were a PDK 911 and a manual Yaris, I'll take the 911.  But in comparable cars, the manual is always more desirable to me.

[GoCougs]

Many. One today in fact. Are you under the misguided impression that floor-mounted A/T shifters are somehow exotic?

No, I think the misguided impression is yours (and others) in the apparently belief paddle shifters in and of themselves somehow improve performance of a torque converter A/T.

In just about every way imaginable. For instance in the one I just drove, it took almost no effort to move the lever between the points. A small nudge sends it from 1 all the way to N. I've actually done that accidentally (well, D to N) on at least two occasions.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I've driven an offset pattern Acura that was an absolute nightmare to manhandle. It was like the J-gate on steroids.

Then of course you invariably have autos that catch in between the points, so that they tend to slip into one or the other on their own accord. That's always a blast.


I'm a little surprised we're having this conversation. In what ways do you think traditional autos are FUN to shift manually? I can't think of any.


Of course you don't have any of these issues with paddle shifters, just: snick, snick, snick.

Sorry, this all untrue. Again, the steering and ergo of a relative boat like the G37 (at least compared to a F430, 911T, etc., which has paddle shifters on a DSG/F1-style transmission) makes paddle shifters on a torque convert A/T a worthless endeavor.

A minor gripe which is totally undercut by your second sentence, not to mention you're starting to ramble.

It's not a minor gripe in the context of the discussion.

[GoCougs]

Again you know not of what you speak

1 there are spirited driving techniques that involve crossing the hands to keep from awkward hand placement

2 if you're shifting mid-turn, you fucked up, you should have downshifted while braking to stay in the car's powerband when powering out of the turn

3 if you think shifting mid turn is "more difficult" with a throttle blipping paddle shifting manumatic, I'd love to here how it's easier with a floor mounted MT & clutch pedal

Floor mounted gate only shifted ATs suck for manual shifting, period.

Again u know not what u speak of; it's probably been decades since you enjoyed a car/drove a stickshift so I'm not sure why u feel u are some kind of authority.
MTs and ATs are only of value if they're GOOD. Obviously a manumatic AT that doesn't respond to inputs isn't a good one (i.e. my dad's M45. what a joke). Likewise a shitty M/T doesn't help (i.e. VQ30 Maxima gearboxes/clutches. Yeech. Would rather they did a 5AT). A well programmed AT is fun.

So, uh, it is never the case that the wheel is turned and the transmission shifted?

I think the problem here is you and others don't understand how a torque converter A/T works, and were unawares of the typical ergonomics, performance and technology of cars deserving of paddle shifters.

[2o6]

I don't understand how this turned into the thread it has.

[GoCougs]

They're generally faster, less likely to mis-shift, and smoother.  I drove my E320 with tiptronic and my brother's E320 with the gate shifter.  My car shifted better 100% of the time. 

Again, paddle shifters have nothing to do with how a torque converter A/T works for that is a function of the inherent design and limitations (ECU programming, engine/transmission fluid coupling, clutches, bands, valve body, etc.) that not coincidentally negate any advantage of paddle shifters.

[2o6]

I'm pretty sure people are arguing for the use of "control" and not "performance".