A New Kind of Cadillac For A New Kind of Cadillac Owner

[CALL_911]

What class? 

The ES seems to always have been in a class of its own until the recent badge-engineered Opels, eh, Buicks, started kicking its ass. 

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/smallentry-luxury-car-sales-and-midsize.html

The one including the Mercedes C-Class, which the ES has beat by a significant margin in sales.

[cawimmer430]

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/smallentry-luxury-car-sales-and-midsize.html

The one including the Mercedes C-Class, which the ES has beat by a significant margin in sales.

Since when does the ES compete with the C-Class?

[Submariner]

I assume you actually see the difference. There's only been one generation of ES that was at Cimarron level:



Otherwise, interior and exterior designs have been totally distinct between same-market Lexuses and Toyotas. Platform sharing =/ badge engineering.

Every Lexus LX has been little more than a re-badge of it's Land Cruiser counterpart. 

[CJ]

Since when does the ES compete with the C-Class?

Since forever.  They're both entry-level luxury vehicles.

[ifcar]

Every Lexus LX has been little more than a re-badge of it's Land Cruiser counterpart. 

Right, forgot that one.

[cawimmer430]

Since forever.  They're both entry-level luxury vehicles.

And what does that make the IS? Entry-Entry-Level-Luxury?

[ifcar]

Entry-level sport-focused vs. entry-level luxury-focused.

[CALL_911]

And what does that make the IS? Entry-Entry-Level-Luxury?

Same difference as the C300 Luxury and C300 Sport.

[cawimmer430]

Same difference as the C300 Luxury and C300 Sport.

Yeah, but those are both C-Classes in different trims. Size-wise the C-Class is in the same class as the Lexus IS, not ES. The ES has no competitor from the European brands except maybe the Volkswagen Passat CC.

Although some diehard Lexus fanatics (more like morons) are claiming the ES competes with the Mercedes CLS, Porsche Panamera and Aston Martin Rapide (aka "The ES is a 4-door coupe...").   

[Vinsanity]

Every Lexus LX has been little more than a re-badge of it's Land Cruiser counterpart. 

Lexus can kinda get away with that one because the Land Cruiser is already priced in Lexus territory.

[Madman]

The Versailles wasn't built off of an already mediocre Cavalier.

No, it was built off the equally mediocre Ford Granada.

[Madman]

What class? 

The ES seems to always have been in a class of its own until the recent badge-engineered Opels, eh, Buicks, started kicking its ass. 

The ES competed primarily with the Acura TL (glorified Accord) and the Infiniti I30/I35 (Maxima wearing chrome lipstick).  Pricewise they competed against the European compact executive cars but were closer in size to the luxury mid-size category.  Despite their plebian roots, the unwashed masses lapped them up.

[the Teuton]

The ES competed primarily with the Acura TL (glorified Accord) and the Infiniti I30/I35 (Maxima wearing chrome lipstick).  Pricewise they competed against the European compact executive cars but were closer in size to the luxury mid-size category.  Despite their plebian roots, the unwashed masses lapped them up.

Being completely honest with loaded V6 Camrys going for $33k or so, the ES isn't that bad of a deal for what you're getting.

[CALL_911]

The ES competed primarily with the Acura TL (glorified Accord) and the Infiniti I30/I35 (Maxima wearing chrome lipstick).  Pricewise they competed against the European compact executive cars but were closer in size to the luxury mid-size category.  Despite their plebian roots, the unwashed masses lapped them up.

To be honest, it does the "luxury" bit better than the C300 could ever hope to.

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

When was this?

You're joking rite?

[NomisR]

Yeah, but those are both C-Classes in different trims. Size-wise the C-Class is in the same class as the Lexus IS, not ES. The ES has no competitor from the European brands except maybe the Volkswagen Passat CC.

Although some diehard Lexus fanatics (more like morons) are claiming the ES competes with the Mercedes CLS, Porsche Panamera and Aston Martin Rapide (aka "The ES is a 4-door coupe...").   

Before the IS was introduced, the ES's competitor was the C class, and you know what, comparing the ES with the European counterparts of the 90s, the ES felt significantly more luxurious than the C Class.  The C Class felt cheap inside...

[ifcar]

No, it was built off the equally mediocre Ford Granada.

At least it was the right size.

[cawimmer430]

Before the IS was introduced, the ES's competitor was the C class, and you know what, comparing the ES with the European counterparts of the 90s, the ES felt significantly more luxurious than the C Class.  The C Class felt cheap inside...

And the ES didn't feel cheap inside? 

1990 Lexus ES250


1994 Lexus ES300


1997 Lexus ES300



Premium car interiors have gotten better. Back in the early 1990s and mid-1990s interiors from competing brands were virtually of the same material quality. I'd say most interiors from that time period look "cheap" nowadays.

[MX793]

A friend of mine had a Cadillac Cimmaron in the early '90s and I haven't seen one in years  I don't think I've seen a Lincoln Versailles since the 1980s, either.  Both these cars were cynical shams and deserved to fail.  And somehow Toyota manages to get away with this same sort of shameless badge engineering with the Toyota Camry Deluxe, AKA the Lexus ES. 

No worse than the Mitsubishi Carisma-based Volvo S40 that was marketed as a "premium" vehicle.  Or the Audi Golf... I mean A3.

[cawimmer430]

I drove a Mitsubishi Carisma 1.9 DI-D once in the UK. The car felt cheaply made, had a way to soft suspension and the steering wheel was a decoration (zero feedback). The engine wasn't bad though and the transmission was fairly precise and smooth.

[NomisR]

Oh yes, and the C is so much more luxurious.. you realize at least the dash of the Lexus doesn't feel like cheap plastic like the Mercedes...

Yes, Mercedes feels cheap... and cramped too..

1990 W201E



W203





1994 W202

[cawimmer430]

Oh yes, and the C is so much more luxurious.. you realize at least the dash of the Lexus doesn't feel like cheap plastic like the Mercedes...

Yes, Mercedes feels cheap... and cramped too..

The plastics used in luxury cars in the early to mid-1990s looks cheap now, but back then it was part of the styling and I suppose it looked premium.

Also, you posted pictures of base model W201, W202 and W203 interiors. There is also an Elegance and Avantgarde line for the W202 and W203 which have far better interiors than the base trim. And the 190 W201 was also available with higher end interiors.

And Lexus interiors are still overrated.

[NomisR]

The plastics used in luxury cars in the early to mid-1990s looks cheap now, but back then it was part of the styling and I suppose it looked premium.

Also, you posted pictures of base model W201, W202 and W203 interiors. There is also an Elegance and Avantgarde line for the W202 and W203 which have far better interiors than the base trim. And the 190 W201 was also available with higher end interiors.

And Lexus interiors are still overrated.

Which would've costed significantly more than the Lexus.  Also, the Lexus plastic (yes we're comparing plastic) feels a lot more luxurious than  that of a Mercedes, especially the dash. 

Mercedes interior.. well, was it ever rated well in the past 20 years?

[Submariner]

And the ES didn't feel cheap inside? 

1990 Lexus ES250


1994 Lexus ES300


1997 Lexus ES300



Premium car interiors have gotten better. Back in the early 1990s and mid-1990s interiors from competing brands were virtually of the same material quality. I'd say most interiors from that time period look "cheap" nowadays.

That first picture you posted is actually a early 90's LS400.

Here is an ES250:



Not to pull a Wimms here, but the 1st generation ES was garbage - the German competition had it beat in terms on build quality and undoubtedly, driving characteristics.  Lexus really started to get it right with the 2nd generation LS which coincidentally is when Mercedes started to get it very wrong. 

[Vinsanity]

The original Lexus ES and Infiniti G20 were rushed to market to fill a gap in between the mainstream Cressida/Maxima and the high-end LS400/Q45, which truly were breakthrough vehicles. The interior of the original LS may look cheap today, but it represented the new definition of luxury for its time; it brought the world's attention to panel gaps and material quality. Lexus brought the ES up to par when the 2nd generation came out in 1992.

[Submariner]

The original Lexus ES and Infiniti G20 were rushed to market to fill a gap in between the mainstream Cressida/Maxima and the high-end LS400/Q45, which truly were breakthrough vehicles. The interior of the original LS may look cheap today, but it represented the new definition of luxury for its time; it brought the world's attention to panel gaps and material quality. Lexus brought the ES up to par when the 2nd generation came out in 1992.

As someone who lived in a family that owned three, I can safely say they were overrated. 

Don't get me wrong, I loved them, but The equivalent S/A8/7 drove better, were built better and used higher quality materials. 

Oddly enough, two of my parents LS 400's (95' and 00') suffered engine failure around the 90k mark.  On the other hand, not a single one of their German cars have had major electrical issues.  I know that's not (never the case) usually the case - funny how that works.   

[sportyaccordy]

A friend of mine had a Cadillac Cimmaron in the early '90s and I haven't seen one in years  I don't think I've seen a Lincoln Versailles since the 1980s, either.  Both these cars were cynical shams and deserved to fail.  And somehow Toyota manages to get away with this same sort of shameless badge engineering with the Toyota Camry Deluxe, AKA the Lexus ES. 

Yea but at least the ESs were quality. One of my friend's dad's has one; I rode in it some time last year and was impressed by its power and refinement. It was a 17 year old Camry! Meanwhile Most GMs of yore have like a 10 year expiration date.

[cawimmer430]

Which would've costed significantly more than the Lexus.  Also, the Lexus plastic (yes we're comparing plastic) feels a lot more luxurious than  that of a Mercedes, especially the dash.

The US didn't even get the base model trims for the 190/C-Class.

And the only way to distinguish which plastic is better is in a laboratory. Everything else regarding "this plastic looks and feels better" is subjective. You think the Lexus plastic is good, I think it sucks.

Mercedes interior.. well, was it ever rated well in the past 20 years?

What exactly do you mean?

Mercedes' has a long history of producing cars in different decades and their interiors reflect the style and fads of that era. The '50s and '60s for example were a mixture of chrome, wood and plastic dashboards. That was the general trend throughout the industry in those days.

Generalized 1960s MB interior...




The '70s and '80s and early to mid-1990s saw extensive use of plastic and wood in luxury car interiors. This was also the beginning of offering customers a choice of different interior trims. Not everyone cares about what the interior looks like in terms of materials, wood etc.

Generalized 1970s MB interior...W116


Generalized 1970s MB interior...W123 BASE TRIM


Generalized 1970s MB interior...W123 SPORTY TRIM


Generalized 1970s MB interior...W123 CUSTOMIZED WITH WOOD OPTIONS



The interiors of all luxury cars have gotten so much better lately because apparently there are people out there who can't help but masturbate to the sensational touch of overpriced Toyota plastic while cruising down the interstate at 85 mph filling out a Consumer Reports survey. 

[CJ]

If you think a Lexus is overpriced, then you need to check out the MBUSA website.  The Lexus is bigger, gets better mileage, has more power, better range, has standard leather and memory seats, a better stereo, and what I feel are better seats.  I've driven the 2011 Lexus ES.  It's a genuinely nice car to drive.  The C300 is also nice, but you have to pay up in order to get what's standard on the Lexus.  The interior on the Lexus also has nicer materials.  That's not subjective.  That's fact.


Also, have you ever been in an old Lexus ES?  The materials are really quite good and there's a feeling of solidity with everything you touch.

[NomisR]

 

The US didn't even get the base model trims for the 190/C-Class.

And the only way to distinguish which plastic is better is in a laboratory. Everything else regarding "this plastic looks and feels better" is subjective. You think the Lexus plastic is good, I think it sucks.

May be subjective but just comparing my mom's ES300 vs my aunt's C280 during the same period in the mid 90s, the ES300  was significantly better.  The dash has some sort faux leather vinyl covering it, vs straight up really hard plastic with bumps on it. 

What exactly do you mean?

Mercedes' has a long history of producing cars in different decades and their interiors reflect the style and fads of that era. The '50s and '60s for example were a mixture of chrome, wood and plastic dashboards. That was the general trend throughout the industry in those days.


The interiors of all luxury cars have gotten so much better lately because apparently there are people out there who can't help but masturbate to the sensational touch of overpriced Toyota plastic while cruising down the interstate at 85 mph filling out a Consumer Reports survey. 

I mean exactly that.. the past 20 years.  The stuff that you're posting at over 20 years old which is why I did not include them.  In the past 20 years, Mercedes quality has gone down the drain significantly.  Yet you seem to masturbate over overpriced Mercedes Benz plastic.