Current generation BMW M3 to be last naturally aspirated M car

[NomisR]

I?ve thought about that. Problem is I like driving my cars on the street as well and going on trips with them. I can?t get around spending that much for a car I would use once a month.

Well, since you're getting a 1M and keeping the M3.. if I were to do it, I'd probably get an open wheel car for the track.. at least repair and wear and tear costs would be a lot cheaper.  How often do you go through tires on your M3? 

[MrH]

I think I?ll miss the NA engines. I drove a 135i on the track a month ago and it sucked in many ways compared to my E46 M3. One of the ways it sucked was the throttle response. Another was the plowing understeer.

Having said that, I have a deposit in for a 1M that arrives in May/June. I put the deposit in when I learned 4 months ago that there would be only 10 cars arriving for all of Mexico, so it will be a sort of instant collector?s car. I got the only one assigned to my dealership in Mexico City. From what I have read of the 1M, other than the throttle response, it should be a blast to drive, probably more agile than either of my current cars. We?ll see. I?m planning to keep the M3s as well.

Wow, congrats.  What color?

That's one hell of a garage.

[MexicoCityM3]

Well, since you're getting a 1M and keeping the M3.. if I were to do it, I'd probably get an open wheel car for the track.. at least repair and wear and tear costs would be a lot cheaper.  How often do you go through tires on your M3? 

A set lasts for 6 or 7 days and we have 14 events every year but since I dont attend all of them I get track tires every 18 months or so. in the lomg run it is probably cheaper to runa dedicated track car.

[MexicoCityM3]

Wow, congrats.  What color?

That's one hell of a garage.

Thank you. The 1M is black, I didn' get to pick it is the only one coming. I orefer the orange one but black will do fine.

[the Teuton]

Keep the E46 forever.

[giant_mtb]

Congrats man!  Pretty rare car you'll have there!  Good snag.

[MrH]

Thank you. The 1M is black, I didn' get to pick it is the only one coming. I orefer the orange one but black will do fine.

  I definitely like black the best.  Wish they offered it in LeMans Blue.  I'm very jealous.

[MexicoCityM3]

Keep the E46 forever.

Yep, that?s the plan. I am doing the Inspection II on it tomorrow. It is now at 62K km (about 39K miles). It feels more solid than the E90 (which is at 42K km).

[MexicoCityM3]

  I definitely like black the best.  Wish they offered it in LeMans Blue.  I'm very jealous.

Thank you. Will post pics when it arrives in a month or two.

[the Teuton]

Yep, that?s the plan. I am doing the Inspection II on it tomorrow. It is now at 62K km (about 39K miles). It feels more solid than the E90 (which is at 42K km).

Is the E46 that expensive to maintain in the real world? I kinda want to get one someday when I can afford it, but I'm scared of just how expensive a used "modern" BMW can get.

[MexicoCityM3]

Is the E46 that expensive to maintain in the real world? I kinda want to get one someday when I can afford it, but I'm scared of just how expensive a used "modern" BMW can get.

Not really. Mine has been out of warranty for 3 years (we only get 2 years of warranty here). Only unscheduled out of pocket was an alternator replacement about a year ago. Total cost was about $550 including labor (not at the dealer).

Inspection II which just came up for the first time is the big one. I ordered all the parts online and a mechanic friend is helping me out tomorrow. I?m probably spending about 1k on this but it includes a valve adjustment. Wont come up again in another 40K miles.

And my car sees close to redline every time I drive it.

It may help a bit that at Mexico?s city altitude above sea level the car makes about 20% less power so everything is stressed less. Get a Denver car.

Incredibly, the suspension bushings are still ok. No suspension work has been done yet.

[GoCougs]

You've been proven wrong about this many times before; that you still belabor these points has gone from entertaining to worrisome.

C&D had a luxo comparo in the May edition, including the A8L and 750Li:

A8L has a virtually identical power/weight ratio (372/4350) to the 750Li (400/4602), and is also a bit larger, has AWD and larger wheels, and is quicker 0-60. All this, and the A8L has a vastly superior EPA rating (17/27 vs. 14/21) and a better as-tested MPG as well (16 vs. 14).

It should also be noted that Audi's 4.2L V8 is rather old yet BMW's TT 4.4L V8 is brand new.

[Xer0]

C&D had a luxo comparo in the May edition, including the A8L and 750Li:

A8L has a virtually identical power/weight ratio (372/4350) to the 750Li (400/4602), and is also a bit larger, has AWD and larger wheels, and is quicker 0-60. All this, and the A8L has a vastly superior EPA rating (17/27 vs. 14/21) and a better as-tested MPG as well (16 vs. 14).

It should also be noted that Audi's 4.2L V8 is rather old yet BMW's TT 4.4L V8 is brand new.

To add further fuel to the fire:

BMW X5 xDrive35i - 300hp/4865 lbs/17 city/25 hwy/ 19 C&D observed
AUDI Q7              - 333hp/5350 lbs/16 city/22 hwy/ 17 C&D observed
Acura MDX          - 300hp/4638 lbs/16 city/21 hwy/ 20 C&D observed

And the Acura was also down 2 gears to the others

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/original/application/40e49060868440d8503ac2568592dfbc.pdf

[Tave]

C&D had a luxo comparo in the May edition, including the A8L and 750Li:

A8L has a virtually identical power/weight ratio (372/4350) to the 750Li (400/4602), and is also a bit larger, has AWD and larger wheels, and is quicker 0-60. All this, and the A8L has a vastly superior EPA rating (17/27 vs. 14/21) and a better as-tested MPG as well (16 vs. 14).

It should also be noted that Audi's 4.2L V8 is rather old yet BMW's TT 4.4L V8 is brand new.

It's quicker to 60 because the AWD helps on launch, just like the Subaru WRX, Mitsu Evo, Porsche 911 Turbo, etc...all have quick launches. The advantage isn't necessarily due to the engine.

[MX793]

It's quicker to 60 because the AWD helps on launch, just like the Subaru WRX, Mitsu Evo, Porsche 911 Turbo, etc...all have quick launches. The advantage isn't necessarily due to the engine.

Indeed, 5-60 is a far more telling measure of real performance and engine breadth.  It takes the launch traction factor out of the equation and leaves only the engine's power curve, the gearing and the weight.

[giant_mtb]

Dumping an AWD car's clutch on pavement is terribly taxing on the whole system, I'd suspect.  5-60 is where it's at for those of us that don't have the funds to get a new clutch every 379 miles.

[68_427]

I think I?ll miss the NA engines. I drove a 135i on the track a month ago and it sucked in many ways compared to my E46 M3. One of the ways it sucked was the throttle response. Another was the plowing understeer.

Having said that, I have a deposit in for a 1M that arrives in May/June. I put the deposit in when I learned 4 months ago that there would be only 10 cars arriving for all of Mexico, so it will be a sort of instant collector?s car. I got the only one assigned to my dealership in Mexico City. From what I have read of the 1M, other than the throttle response, it should be a blast to drive, probably more agile than either of my current cars. We?ll see. I?m planning to keep the M3s as well.

SHeeeeieiiiiiiiiit.  Congrats.  All your cars are black though... lol

Blue would be amazing, but I think black will look great too.  I have a feeling Orange will be the most popular color so maybe black is good for investment purposes.

[GoCougs]

It's quicker to 60 because the AWD helps on launch, just like the Subaru WRX, Mitsu Evo, Porsche 911 Turbo, etc...all have quick launches. The advantage isn't necessarily due to the engine.

In that comparo the BMW does have a 0.1 sec advantage 5-60 but then again the Audi has a huge advantage 50 - 70. But there's pretty much no advantage in launching an A/T-equipped, 375 - 400 hp, ~4,500 luxobarge with AWD. Even if there were the overarching point still stands; F/I does not increase the efficiency of an IC engine but it does let automakers sidestep displacement taxes and to utilize economies of scale WRT engine development.

[MexicoCityM3]

SHeeeeieiiiiiiiiit.  Congrats.  All your cars are black though... lol

Blue would be amazing, but I think black will look great too.  I have a feeling Orange will be the most popular color so maybe black is good for investment purposes.

Thank you. 

The E46 is blue, the E90 is silver. So black will be ok. I wouldn?t go as far as calling the 1M an investment. I am sure it will depreciate, but probably less than other cars.

[MexicoCityM3]

In that comparo the BMW does have a 0.1 sec advantage 5-60 but then again the Audi has a huge advantage 50 - 70. But there's pretty much no advantage in launching an A/T-equipped, 375 - 400 hp, ~4,500 luxobarge with AWD. Even if there were the overarching point still stands; F/I does not increase the efficiency of an IC engine but it does let automakers sidestep displacement taxes and to utilize economies of scale WRT engine development.

I agree with Cougs here (for a change). That the 7 is heavier than an AWD equivalent Audi is very sad. And efficiency gains are also questionable. My E46 gives better mileage in real life than 135i s of friends with whom I have talked. When you get on the gas the turbos gulp gas. My feeling is that for my driving style they don?t have much of an efficiency advantage. They seem to be optimized for the EPA/EU economy testing procedures. Who here drives like that?

[GoCougs]

From the write-up it's implied the Audi uses for more aluminum in its structure and body to mitigate weight gain. It won the comparo over the 750 Li and XFR BTW. C&D didn't have a whole lot great to say about the 750 Li. The A8L overall was the better driver too.

[68_427]

Thank you. 

The E46 is blue, the E90 is silver. So black will be ok. I wouldn?t go as far as calling the 1M an investment. I am sure it will depreciate, but probably less than other cars.

I look like a retard, dunno why I thought they were all black.

[hotrodalex]

C&D had a luxo comparo in the May edition, including the A8L and 750Li:

A8L has a virtually identical power/weight ratio (372/4350) to the 750Li (400/4602), and is also a bit larger, has AWD and larger wheels, and is quicker 0-60. All this, and the A8L has a vastly superior EPA rating (17/27 vs. 14/21) and a better as-tested MPG as well (16 vs. 14).

It should also be noted that Audi's 4.2L V8 is rather old yet BMW's TT 4.4L V8 is brand new.

They have the same power to weight ratio, so it comes down to AWD helping the launch. What do you mean the Audi is bigger? The BMW weighs more. Physical size doesn't matter that much.

To add further fuel to the fire:

BMW X5 xDrive35i - 300hp/4865 lbs/17 city/25 hwy/ 19 C&D observed
AUDI Q7              - 333hp/5350 lbs/16 city/22 hwy/ 17 C&D observed
Acura MDX          - 300hp/4638 lbs/16 city/21 hwy/ 20 C&D observed

And the Acura was also down 2 gears to the others

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/original/application/40e49060868440d8503ac2568592dfbc.pdf

It's down 2 gears, but what's the Acura's top gear ratio? I'm assuming it's similar to the BMW's and Audi's.

In that comparo the BMW does have a 0.1 sec advantage 5-60 but then again the Audi has a huge advantage 50 - 70. But there's pretty much no advantage in launching an A/T-equipped, 375 - 400 hp, ~4,500 luxobarge with AWD. Even if there were the overarching point still stands; F/I does not increase the efficiency of an IC engine but it does let automakers sidestep displacement taxes and to utilize economies of scale WRT engine development.

Wouldn't the 50-70 time be based off of gearing? If that's the case, that says nothing about the engine.

I agree with Cougs here (for a change). That the 7 is heavier than an AWD equivalent Audi is very sad. And efficiency gains are also questionable. My E46 gives better mileage in real life than 135i s of friends with whom I have talked. When you get on the gas the turbos gulp gas. My feeling is that for my driving style they don?t have much of an efficiency advantage. They seem to be optimized for the EPA/EU economy testing procedures. Who here drives like that?

It is rather embarrassing how heavy cars have gotten lately. And obviously if you drive a turbo engine aggressively all the time you won't see any MPG gains. There's no magic involved with turbo engines; you still need a lot of gas to get that kind of horsepower. The MPG gains come in every day driving when you stay out of the boost. That's probably the biggest reason that magazines don't get better MPG with turbocharged cars when they test them, since they are driving hard almost all of the time.

[cawimmer430]

For Hector. 






Link: http://www.carspin.net/forums/index.php?topic=24670.0

[sportyaccordy]

C&D had a luxo comparo in the May edition, including the A8L and 750Li:

A8L has a virtually identical power/weight ratio (372/4350) to the 750Li (400/4602), and is also a bit larger, has AWD and larger wheels, and is quicker 0-60. All this, and the A8L has a vastly superior EPA rating (17/27 vs. 14/21) and a better as-tested MPG as well (16 vs. 14).

It should also be noted that Audi's 4.2L V8 is rather old yet BMW's TT 4.4L V8 is brand new.

A8 V8 & 750i V8 are almost incomparable; A8 V8 makes 372/328 hp/tq, BMW V8 makes 400/450. U'd be better off comparing the BMW V8 to the now defunct Audi V or W12 TBH, which I'm sure are either close in power or working in the Bimmer's favor

A more real comparo would be between the 07 335i 6MT and the 07 G35 6MT... BMW makes more torque and about the same power, and gets marginally better highway mileage despite having worse aerodynamics

Audi's old sport V8 vs the new 3.0"T" is a better example

Why you think someone buying a $60K BMW will be stopped by displacement tax is silly, they sell S4s and M3s in Europe

[Xer0]

A8 V8 & 750i V8 are almost incomparable; A8 V8 makes 372/328 hp/tq, BMW V8 makes 400/450. U'd be better off comparing the BMW V8 to the now defunct Audi V or W12 TBH, which I'm sure are either close in power or working in the Bimmer's favor

A more real comparo would be between the 07 335i 6MT and the 07 G35 6MT... BMW makes more torque and about the same power, and gets marginally better highway mileage despite having worse aerodynamics

Audi's old sport V8 vs the new 3.0"T" is a better example

Why you think someone buying a $60K BMW will be stopped by displacement tax is silly, they sell S4s and M3s in Europe

Huh?  The two comparisons are identical.  You?re comparing one car that?s N/A vs. another car that?s F/I.  Only difference is that yours proves your idea while his proves his.  At the end of the day it?s pretty obvious that this new line of DI/Turbo engines aren?t some magical MPG machines.

[GoCougs]

They have the same power to weight ratio, so it comes down to AWD helping the launch. What do you mean the Audi is bigger? The BMW weighs more. Physical size doesn't matter that much.

90% chance AWD isn't' helping ~4,500 luxo barges launch; even if it did it'd be only a couple of tenths putting both cars just about even. The Audi is longer and wider (i.e., bigger thing to push through the air).

Wouldn't the 50-70 time be based off of gearing? If that's the case, that says nothing about the engine.

It's a factor but by my guesstimate the BMW has the gearing advantage. To go 50 - 70 mph, the Audi starts in the top of 2nd gear (max speed in 2nd is 57 mph) and finishes most of the run (57 - 70 mph) in the first half of third gear. The BMW does almost the entire run in 2nd gear (max speed in 2nd is 67 mph) and finished just a smidge (67 - 70 mph) in 3rd gear. Also, the BMW has peak torque RPM at exactly half that of the Audi (1,750 rpm vs. 3,500 rpm).

It is rather embarrassing how heavy cars have gotten lately. And obviously if you drive a turbo engine aggressively all the time you won't see any MPG gains. There's no magic involved with turbo engines; you still need a lot of gas to get that kind of horsepower. The MPG gains come in every day driving when you stay out of the boost. That's probably the biggest reason that magazines don't get better MPG with turbocharged cars when they test them, since they are driving hard almost all of the time.

So exactly how does staying out of boost increase MPG over a N/A car? The Audi and BMW engines are almost identical in size (4.2L vs. 4.4L) and have almost identical compression ratios (11.7:1 vs. 11.5:1).

[MX793]

90% chance AWD isn't' helping ~4,500 luxo barges launch; even if it did it'd be only a couple of tenths putting both cars just about even. The Audi is longer and wider (i.e., bigger thing to push through the air).

Length has little effect on aerodynamic drag until you start getting really long (like tractor trailer).  The few inches difference between a 7er and A8 is moot.  And in 0-60, aerodynamic drag is a very very minor player.  Like single digit horsepower levels up until 50 mph or so.

[GoCougs]

A8 V8 & 750i V8 are almost incomparable; A8 V8 makes 372/328 hp/tq, BMW V8 makes 400/450. U'd be better off comparing the BMW V8 to the now defunct Audi V or W12 TBH, which I'm sure are either close in power or working in the Bimmer's favor

A more real comparo would be between the 07 335i 6MT and the 07 G35 6MT... BMW makes more torque and about the same power, and gets marginally better highway mileage despite having worse aerodynamics

Audi's old sport V8 vs the new 3.0"T" is a better example

Why you think someone buying a $60K BMW will be stopped by displacement tax is silly, they sell S4s and M3s in Europe

C'mon, dude, peak torque is irrelevant. Let's not go there.

Nah, the two cars get identical EPA ratings at 19/27 vs. 19/28, and the IS350 gets 20/27. Zero advantag for the 3.0T but with all the drawbacks to mainteanance and repairs.

Another obvious example is the M56 (16/25); as quick or quicker and equivalent MPG compared to the 550i (17/25) and E550 (15/23).

[sportyaccordy]

The 550i weighs like 4300lbs