The true cost of a speeding ticket.....

[The Pirate]

You're apparently not familiar with the way NY handles traffic tickets.  In addition to the fine, you pay an $85 dollar "court surcharge".

As I understand it, in NY, the proceeds of the citation itself (court costs, as mentioned, do not factor into this) are split between the agency issuing the citation and the town/city and county where it was issued.

[bing_oh]

Costs collected by courts have a cost; overhead, personnel, equipment, etc. Sure there is a sunk cost in LEO salary and probably elsewhere, but a $150 traffic fine isn't $150 into the issuing government's coffers. Sure there are exceptions but en masse I have real trouble buying the revenue angle.

I've tried in vain to express to peope in the past, most police departments are lucky to get a couple bucks out of each citation written...probably not even enough to cover the cost of the officer's salary, gas, vehicle upkeep, the ink from his pen as he writes you the ticket. And that money doesn't generally go to the PD but into the general fund where it can be spent on anything from patching potholes to a golden toilet for the mayor. The vast majority of the money goes to the court. After that, the state takes most of the rest.

By removing speed limits you're relying solely on subjective law for traffic enforcement, which is the proverbial play field of tyrants. I am well aware of variable limits on interstates but most roads aren't interstates.

This is another point I've expressed on this debate in the past. People bitch that speed limits aren't strictly enforced because that gives officers too much discretion, then they bitch when they are strictly enforced when they get a ticket, then people like Jimmy propose eliminating speed limits and replacing them with "reasonable for conditions" without establishing a strict judicial standard, not realizing (or maybe not caring) that that gives LEO's carte blanche on enforcement and making speeding totally subjective within the officer's discretion. In the end, nobody's happy and the LEO's are the bad guys...what else is new.

[hotrodalex]

I've tried in vain to express to peope in the past, most police departments are lucky to get a couple bucks out of each citation written...probably not even enough to cover the cost of the officer's salary, gas, vehicle upkeep, the ink from his pen as he writes you the ticket. And that money doesn't generally go to the PD but into the general fund where it can be spent on anything from patching potholes to a golden toilet for the mayor. The vast majority of the money goes to the court. After that, the state takes most of the rest.

When I had to go to traffic school for my ticket the guy told us how the money from a ticket was broken up and where it went. State took like 50%, the court took another good chunk, and IIRC the department got like 1%.

[BENZ BOY15]

Mr. Never-do-anything wrong got a ticket?! LOL

what were you doing?

[hotrodalex]

Speeding. I posted about it in the ticket thread. Was going 50 in a 35, wrote me down for 40 in a 35. Not a big deal, especially since I usually go 60+ on that road.

[dazzleman]

Speeding. I posted about it in the ticket thread. Was going 50 in a 35, wrote me down for 40 in a 35. Not a big deal, especially since I usually go 60+ on that road.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgYnmN1zwx0

[dazzleman]

Mr. Never-do-anything wrong got a ticket?! LOL

what were you doing?

Whatever made you think that Alex never does anything wrong? 

[hotrodalex]

Whatever made you think that Alex never does anything wrong? 

I just never get caught.

[dazzleman]

I just never get caught.

Well, you got caught once....

[dazzleman]

As I understand it, in NY, the proceeds of the citation itself (court costs, as mentioned, do not factor into this) are split between the agency issuing the citation and the town/city and county where it was issued.

Every state is different.  In Connecticut, all the revenues go to the state.  I think you're right about New York, though I think the revenues go to the municipality rather than the agency itself.

[dazzleman]

I've tried in vain to express to peope in the past, most police departments are lucky to get a couple bucks out of each citation written...probably not even enough to cover the cost of the officer's salary, gas, vehicle upkeep, the ink from his pen as he writes you the ticket. And that money doesn't generally go to the PD but into the general fund where it can be spent on anything from patching potholes to a golden toilet for the mayor. The vast majority of the money goes to the court. After that, the state takes most of the rest.

This is another point I've expressed on this debate in the past. People bitch that speed limits aren't strictly enforced because that gives officers too much discretion, then they bitch when they are strictly enforced when they get a ticket, then people like Jimmy propose eliminating speed limits and replacing them with "reasonable for conditions" without establishing a strict judicial standard, not realizing (or maybe not caring) that that gives LEO's carte blanche on enforcement and making speeding totally subjective within the officer's discretion. In the end, nobody's happy and the LEO's are the bad guys...what else is new.

You're right, and there's no way to win.  People want the other guy to get a ticket, but not them.  It's just that simple.

[hotrodalex]

Well, you got caught once....

Shhh!

I don't consider that getting caught, as I don't consider 50 on that road to be speeding.

[bing_oh]

Speeding. I posted about it in the ticket thread. Was going 50 in a 35, wrote me down for 40 in a 35. Not a big deal, especially since I usually go 60+ on that road.

From 15 over to 5 over? That's a hell of a break. You must give a great bj...

[hotrodalex]

Probably would've just gotten a warning had my insurance card been up to date.

[BENZ BOY15]

I got a $300 ticket for being 15 over....65 in a 50.

[hounddog]

Every state is different.  In Connecticut, all the revenues go to the state.  I think you're right about New York, though I think the revenues go to the municipality rather than the agency itself.

In Michigan the court gets the costs, which account for about 60% of a ticket.

Then, the public library in the township/city/village where the ticket was written gets a cut, the schools, and then;

If the ticket was written by a local agency the county and state get a 1/3 of the remaining and the issuing municipality must put the money into the general fund.  County must put it in general fund, but the state puts it directly into the MSP budget. 

If the ticket was written by the county, the state gets 1/2 the remaining.

If the state issues it, they get all the remaining.

If anything, the state here is on the dole, not the local municipalities.  Most local municipalities only see between $5 and $10 per citation they write.  Since court for one single ticket can cost them (average union contract stipend) about 2 hours at OT I cannot envision a situation where local municipalities can be making out on traffic.

[GoCougs]

You're apparently not familiar with the way NY handles traffic tickets.  In addition to the fine, you pay an $85 dollar "court surcharge".

How much does it take to run traffic court; judge and prosecutor salaries, overhead, computerized records, etc.?

[GoCougs]

Basic accounting and PnL analysis tells us the revenue angle does not wash; and logic does as well. If revenue were a primary driver, LE would be hyper vigilant in its speed traps - in frequency, intensity and proliferation. This is not the case overall.

Such as it is, even automated citing can be a net $$$ loser - look at the recent financial failures of the Arizona speed camera system.

[dazzleman]

Basic accounting and PnL analysis tells us the revenue angle does not wash; and logic does as well. If revenue were a primary driver, LE would be hyper vigilant in its speed traps - in frequency, intensity and proliferation. This is not the case overall.

Such as it is, even automated citing can be a net $$$ loser - look at the recent financial failures of the Arizona speed camera system.

Making money hinges on getting the highest possible percentage of people to pay without challenging tge ticket.  If too many people challenge their tickets, the state loses money.  That's why it can be counterproductive to put fines too high.  More people challenge tickets when the fines are higher.

[MaxPower]

Making money hinges on getting the highest possible percentage of people to pay without challenging tge ticket.  If too many people challenge their tickets, the state loses money.  That's why it can be counterproductive to put fines too high.  More people challenge tickets when the fines are higher.

To that extent, we blow through 40-50 defendants in traffic court easily in an hour.  These are the ones that contest the ticket too - very very few actually want a trial once they realize the only way they'll win is if they're pretty (one of our judges is a sucker for the cute girls).

[dazzleman]

To that extent, we blow through 40-50 defendants in traffic court easily in an hour.  These are the ones that contest the ticket too - very very few actually want a trial once they realize the only way they'll win is if they're pretty (one of our judges is a sucker for the cute girls).

I think most people go to court just looking to knock the ticket down to a lesser charge/fine.  I've never actually expected to get off completely any time I've gone to court.

[S204STi]

Thing is, the officers here basically offer right there to knock down the points and fine if you pay early.  Less incentive to waste their time in court.

[Colonel Cadillac]

Making money hinges on getting the highest possible percentage of people to pay without challenging tge ticket.  If too many people challenge their tickets, the state loses money.  That's why it can be counterproductive to put fines too high.  More people challenge tickets when the fines are higher.

That's the challenge with speeding through far away lands.

[dazzleman]

That's the challenge with speeding through far away lands.

That's why out-of-staters are targeted more than local drivers for tickets.  They're less likely to contest the ticket.

[bing_oh]

That's why out-of-staters are targeted more than local drivers for tickets.  They're less likely to contest the ticket.

That's based upon the assumption that police officers target vehicles for traffic enforcement based upon financial issues. Again, it's generally a false assumption. As I've stated, LEO's and PD's don't generally benefit from the fines imposed for traffic tickets...the state and the courts do. So, what kind of a response do you think you're going to get from a traffic cop if you tell him that, if he doesn't write more tickets, the state and the court won't make money? The response would generally be some version of "I don't care." In fact, if you think of it logically, your average street cop would probably WANT people to fight tickets because it means court OT for him!

The courts and the state probably DO care, but they don't get to dictate what the street cops do on duty. You have to seperate the cops from the courts and the state to understand the realities of traffic enforcement in most places (as always, there will be exceptions, but we're talking about the majority of places).

[dazzleman]

That's based upon the assumption that police officers target vehicles for traffic enforcement based upon financial issues. Again, it's generally a false assumption. As I've stated, LEO's and PD's don't generally benefit from the fines imposed for traffic tickets...the state and the courts do. So, what kind of a response do you think you're going to get from a traffic cop if you tell him that, if he doesn't write more tickets, the state and the court won't make money? The response would generally be some version of "I don't care." In fact, if you think of it logically, your average street cop would probably WANT people to fight tickets because it means court OT for him!

The courts and the state probably DO care, but they don't get to dictate what the street cops do on duty. You have to seperate the cops from the courts and the state to understand the realities of traffic enforcement in most places (as always, there will be exceptions, but we're talking about the majority of places).

I'm guessing it varies a lot by location.  Different states do things differently.  I understand what you're saying and that probably applies a lot of places, but I'm guessing that in some places, it is viewed as more lucative to target out-of-state speeders (though they're also probably more likely to trash the ticket without paying it, but it's harder to do that now with the interstate compact).  There's also a political component in going after people who can't vote in your jurisdiction.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not one of these whiners.  If you're speeding, you're fair game for a ticket and don't really have a right to complain.  But I think it's impossible to deny that there is all sorts of favoritism on different levels that determines who gets ticketed, who has to pay the ticket, and who has to carry points on his license, versus those who can drive exactly the same as the ticketed driver with impunity.

[bing_oh]

I'm guessing it varies a lot by location.  Different states do things differently.  I understand what you're saying and that probably applies a lot of places, but I'm guessing that in some places, it is viewed as more lucative to target out-of-state speeders (though they're also probably more likely to trash the ticket without paying it, but it's harder to do that now with the interstate compact).  There's also a political component in going after people who can't vote in your jurisdiction.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not one of these whiners.  If you're speeding, you're fair game for a ticket and don't really have a right to complain.  But I think it's impossible to deny that there is all sorts of favoritism on different levels that determines who gets ticketed, who has to pay the ticket, and who has to carry points on his license, versus those who can drive exactly the same as the ticketed driver with impunity.

I'm sure that there are small communities that use Mayor's Court to make money off of traffic citations. I'm sure that there are more politically-motivated departments that pick and choose who gets cited for political reasons. But, I also believe that they are more the exception than the rule. I've worked for bigger departments and smaller ones in my almost 12 years in LE and I have never once considered the profit of a citation for the city, state, or court when I've written a ticket. The closest thing I've done to that is "shotgun" a person with multiple citations (all legitimate, mind you) for being an asshole or to try to get a message across to an out-of-area dirtbag that he was not welcome in my community...in those cases, the bigger the fine, the better.

[MaxPower]

yeah, in the state I work in there are no local municipal courts, just state courts.  All the fine money goes into the state's general fund, which is the same fund lottery receipts go into.  From there it's divvied up among hundreds of different programs and interests and whatever goes back to local LE must take a long time to get there.

[GoCougs]

yeah, in the state I work in there are no local municipal courts, just state courts.  All the fine money goes into the state's general fund, which is the same fund lottery receipts go into.  From there it's divvied up among hundreds of different programs and interests and whatever goes back to local LE must take a long time to get there.

Pretty much this. Plus, even places where fines are not thrown into a general fund (i.e., funds go to the issuing authority) I remain wholly unconvinced that there exists the efficiency and efficacy in the government bureaucracy need to effect the process (court, cashier, accounting and documentation system, etc.) to any meaningful (profitable) degree.

[Tave]

Some of the overhead you're talking about is just the general overhead of the court system, which will be paid whether or not any traffic citations are issued.

And even a traffic court that has full-time dedicated staff completely separate from any of the other courts will be a sunk cost. You don't abandon a court because it costs money to operate. It costs money to operate every court in the country. Fines don't need to be "profitable"--in the sense that they completely pay for the courts--to factor into the financial decisions of state and local municipalities (i.e., think of the financial position the jurisdiction would be in if it didn't collect any fines--enforcing the law would cost it even more money).


There is an obvious financial incentive to writing traffic tickets. The only questions are how strong is that motive, and does it actually influence behavior. Just because the incentive exists doesn't mean officers act on it. I would say that the strength of the incentive is relatively minor, as the entity that benefits from the fine is rather amorphous and unlikely to be the officer who actually writes the ticket. In terms of countervailing interests, political pressure keeps the police from overexercising their discretion, hopefully.