The dangerous elderly driver thread.

[Raza]

I think the bigger issue is that manual driving will become illegal.

Or that when manual driving becomes necessary, the skills that people used to have would have diminished to the point of nonexistence. 

If you want better driving, get better drivers.  Don't sidestep the issue and inevitably make the problem worse. 

[12,000 RPM]

American driving is partially due to a lack of training but mainly cultural. There is no driver's ed course that will convince people that driving safety & skill are more important than getting hammered, or checking Facebook, or swallowing one's pride to acknowledge that they are too old to be behind the wheel of a car. You could make DUI a capitol offense, people will still drive drunk

I would rather have the people who don't give a shit about driving or anyone's safety NOT be behind the wheel of a car at all than waste time, money and effort trying to project my values on them. The "driver's training" argument is moot, driver's training is not the problem. Driving in most of the US is easy as hell, it doesn't exactly require a 4 year degree to do. There's 8 year olds who understand car dynamics better than the avg US driver. Traffic lights etc are not that hard to figure out. The problem is American driving culture for which there is no simple fix.

[Northlands]

If this happens, I'd like to see a two tiered driver's licensing system that allows for top tiered drivers to have the option to drive the car themselves. The cell phone drunks can be in the bottom tier being chauffeured around in their HAL powered cars.

[Raza]

If this happens, I'd like to see a two tiered driver's licensing system that allows for top tiered drivers to have the option to drive the car themselves. The cell phone drunks can be in the bottom tier being chauffeured around in their HAL powered cars.

Yeah, if that happens--and those idiots get their own roads, so I don't have to worry about computer viruses or Fuckface McAssDouche trying to fix his own computer car--then I'm fine with it.

[12,000 RPM]

Yeah, if that happens--and those idiots get their own roads, so I don't have to worry about computer viruses or Fuckface McAssDouche trying to fix his own computer car--then I'm fine with it.

Whens the last time you heard of a car crashing because of a computer, let alone a computer VIRUS? :ugh:

You give American drivers way too much credit. It would not be hard to make a computer that drives better than the avg American.

[NomisR]

American driving is partially due to a lack of training but mainly cultural. There is no driver's ed course that will convince people that driving safety & skill are more important than getting hammered, or checking Facebook, or swallowing one's pride to acknowledge that they are too old to be behind the wheel of a car. You could make DUI a capitol offense, people will still drive drunk

I would rather have the people who don't give a shit about driving or anyone's safety NOT be behind the wheel of a car at all than waste time, money and effort trying to project my values on them. The "driver's training" argument is moot, driver's training is not the problem. Driving in most of the US is easy as hell, it doesn't exactly require a 4 year degree to do. There's 8 year olds who understand car dynamics better than the avg US driver. Traffic lights etc are not that hard to figure out. The problem is American driving culture for which there is no simple fix.

Here's what our driver's education looks like. 

Hand the kid a DMV manual, study it, take the test to make sure they know the rule.

Put the same kid behind the wheels after they've passed the test knowing the rules and hand the the keys and have them drive around the block.  This is to ensure they can apply these rules properly.

THAT'S IT!

There's no education to any of this, no teaching people how to actually drive.  There's nobody teaching driver's proper usage of brakes or control of the car, body rolls, racing lines, whatever, it's just get in and go, and just follow the rules.  That's the problem.

Driver's training?  It's laughable.  It's dumbed down so much just like everything else in our society today, it's catering to the lowest common denominator.

[NomisR]

Whens the last time you heard of a car crashing because of a computer, let alone a computer VIRUS? :ugh:

You give American drivers way too much credit. It would not be hard to make a computer that drives better than the avg American.

Because computers aren't driving cars today.  But you have to remember that if computers do drive cars, not only do we have to deal with computers even today we have to deal with occassional crashes, lockups, freezes and what not on top of that, viruses and so forth, they would all need a wide variety of sensors. And with the sensors, it means that the individual owners pretty much have to maintain it which I don't think a lot would actually do so.. and then people would probably find ways to screw with the sensors which would probably mess with things even more. 

[Raza]

Whens the last time you heard of a car crashing because of a computer, let alone a computer VIRUS? :ugh:

Well, every time a company comes out with a computer controlled braking system, the car crashes.  Happened with Mercedes and it happened with Volvo when they both debuted their radar braking systems. 

As for viruses, you're talking about fully automated cars, which mean that they're going to need far more computing than is currently necessary.  That means OSs, probably internet connectivity, et al; it's not unreasonable to think that car computer viruses could become a problem in the future. 

[Raza]

Because computers aren't driving cars today.  But you have to remember that if computers do drive cars, not only do we have to deal with computers even today we have to deal with occassional crashes, lockups, freezes and what not on top of that, viruses and so forth, they would all need a wide variety of sensors. And with the sensors, it means that the individual owners pretty much have to maintain it which I don't think a lot would actually do so.. and then people would probably find ways to screw with the sensors which would probably mess with things even more.

No, no one has ever modified a car to the point it was unsafe and then continued to drive it. 

[12,000 RPM]

Here's what our driver's education looks like. 

Hand the kid a DMV manual, study it, take the test to make sure they know the rule.

Put the same kid behind the wheels after they've passed the test knowing the rules and hand the the keys and have them drive around the block.  This is to ensure they can apply these rules properly.

THAT'S IT!

There's no education to any of this, no teaching people how to actually drive.  There's nobody teaching driver's proper usage of brakes or control of the car, body rolls, racing lines, whatever, it's just get in and go, and just follow the rules.  That's the problem.

Driver's training?  It's laughable.  It's dumbed down so much just like everything else in our society today, it's catering to the lowest common denominator.

You guys are looking at the wrong metrics. You are using race driver metrics to analyze street drivers. My wife doesnt know understeer from a J-turn, but shes a better driver than me... why??? She won't hit 100 MPH on an open stretch for the fuck of it, or go weaving in and out of lanes in traffic etc. The only important measure of how good a driver someone is on the road is how SAFE they drive. In the US that is pretty easy. Stay in your lane, check your mirrors, maintain good distance, don't speed, pay attention to the road & your car

You can teach a kid driving dynamics and all that horseshit, but none of that is gonna stop him from acting a fool with his friends. None of that is gonna stop him from driving drunk. None of that is gonna stop him from sending stupid corny FB messages to his GF 10 mins away on a curvy 2 lane road. I agree that driver's ed sucks but as far as safety on the road driver's ed is not the problem. If you want people to drive better you have to make driving important. Good luck doing that in a country that votes more for American Idol than political candidates

[12,000 RPM]

Well, every time a company comes out with a computer controlled braking system, the car crashes.  Happened with Mercedes and it happened with Volvo when they both debuted their radar braking systems.

And they fixed them, and got the green light to release them to the public. I've asked you before dozens of times but can you point to a system like that to having caused any accidents in the public realm?

As for viruses, you're talking about fully automated cars, which mean that they're going to need far more computing than is currently necessary.  That means OSs, probably internet connectivity, et al; it's not unreasonable to think that car computer viruses could become a problem in the future.

Lot of ifs and speculation here. News flash, the tech is already out there. The Google cars don't use an "OS" and they aren't controlled "by the internet". A luxury car today has vehicle dynamics controls that can accelerate, brake, turn the steering wheel, as well as scan the road for other cars, obstacles and landmarks. Integrate those systems with traffic devices and GPS, the car can drive itself no problem. And the electronics controlling these things are way more robust/redundant/foolproof than a damn Windows PC... another fallacy you keep touting as fact.

Look I enjoy driving and don't want a fully automated automotive landscape. But you are being dishonest in your assessments of the frailty & failure rates of life safety grade computers, and the attentiveness & focus of the avg driver. We have reached a point where computers can and ARE robust enough to SAFELY replace average, let alone the worst drivers on American roads, and to where the issues of safety on American roads go beyond driver's training or safety technology. Americans, particularly the young and old, either don't give a shit about driving safely, or lack the physical ability to drive safely. Replacing these drivers with computers would be an upgrade, PERIOD.

[12,000 RPM]

Well, every time a company comes out with a computer controlled braking system, the car crashes.  Happened with Mercedes and it happened with Volvo when they both debuted their radar braking systems. 

O and there have been "computer controlled braking systems" since the early days of ABS. Most vehicle stability control systems control the individual brakes... with computers. But don't let your illogical clinging to autonomy get in the way of facts. Note, nobody has even said or implied that YOU should lose your ability to drive.

[NomisR]

You guys are looking at the wrong metrics. You are using race driver metrics to analyze street drivers. My wife doesnt know understeer from a J-turn, but shes a better driver than me... why??? She won't hit 100 MPH on an open stretch for the fuck of it, or go weaving in and out of lanes in traffic etc. The only important measure of how good a driver someone is on the road is how SAFE they drive. In the US that is pretty easy. Stay in your lane, check your mirrors, maintain good distance, don't speed, pay attention to the road & your car

You can teach a kid driving dynamics and all that horseshit, but none of that is gonna stop him from acting a fool with his friends. None of that is gonna stop him from driving drunk. None of that is gonna stop him from sending stupid corny FB messages to his GF 10 mins away on a curvy 2 lane road. I agree that driver's ed sucks but as far as safety on the road driver's ed is not the problem. If you want people to drive better you have to make driving important. Good luck doing that in a country that votes more for American Idol than political candidates

It's not about race car driving but actually driving properly. 

Here's what I see a lot of the times on the road.  You have a red light up ahead with cars stopped.  The car in front of you would step too hard on their brakes so they stop way too short of where they originally intended to stop.  And after they stopped, they realized that there's still a car's length between him and the car in front of him so he rolls forward.  How many times have you seen that happen when proper usage of brakes means you know how fast you're going, where you want to stop, and step on your brakes a certain amount and you stop exactly at where you want.  No need to modulate your brakes or slam on your brakes, and it makes it easy for others to drive behind you and your passengers won't be puking when they get out.   Hey, I can do it.. and I don't think I'm the best driver out there so if I can, others should be able to too.

And then you have asshats, stepping on the brakes in corners where there's no need to do it because.. ohhhhh they're scared.. fuck..

And you realize that our speed limit used to be higher before the whole 55 save lives crap in cars that stops longer and are less safe than today?  Because traffic engineers engineered our roads to go at faster speeds, but our politicians deem those speeds to be dangerous.  Our speed limits today is not about safety but simply a political tool... that's it.

[Raza]

O and there have been "computer controlled braking systems" since the early days of ABS. Most vehicle stability control systems control the individual brakes... with computers. But don't let your illogical clinging to autonomy get in the way of facts. Note, nobody has even said or implied that YOU should lose your ability to drive.

You're resting your argument on an omitted adjective.  "Fully".  There. 

[NomisR]

And there's really the liability issue of accidents.  So who would be responsible if a fully automated car gets into a crash?  The owner or the manufacturer? 

I think just because of this, the chances of 100% automated cars is not really likely because too much liability is placed on the manufacturers.  The drivers will at least retain enough control to control the cars in an event of an emergency. 

[MrH]

The Google automated cars have logged hundred of thousands of miles with zero accidents in auto mode.  A couple have crashed, but it was when they were all being controlled manually

And that's with the unpredictable, terrible human drivers all around them.  You put other computer controlled cars out there, and it'll be even easier for automated cars to navigate.

[NomisR]

The Google automated cars have logged hundred of thousands of miles with zero accidents in auto mode.  A couple have crashed, but it was when they were all being controlled manually

And that's with the unpredictable, terrible human drivers all around them.  You put other computer controlled cars out there, and it'll be even easier for automated cars to navigate.

Make something idiot-proof, and they will build a better idiot

Stupid people crash Toyotas because they get their carpet stuck on the gas pedal and you're expecting auto cars to work retail?

You'll have consumers probably getting the sensors so dirty that it won't work properly or simply mess it up somehow... and who'll be liable?  It's not engineers running these things keeping them in 100% working condition.

[Raza]

Make something idiot-proof, and they will build a better idiot

[12,000 RPM]

Make something idiot-proof, and they will build a better idiot

Stupid people crash Toyotas because they get their carpet stuck on the gas pedal and you're expecting auto cars to work retail?

You'll have consumers probably getting the sensors so dirty that it won't work properly or simply mess it up somehow... and who'll be liable?  It's not engineers running these things keeping them in 100% working condition.

There are already these systems in place... for the millionth time can you or Raza point to an example of any of the hundreds of millions of cars w/computer controlled dynamic systems causing accidents?

Even your hypothetical scenario is goofy. "Dirty sensors"? Again have "dirty sensors" caused any accidents up to this point? And how can a "better idiot" be a danger in a car they have on complete autopilot????

[Northlands]

Maybe we should have driver's training/tests like they have in Germany?

Also, if the cell phone / facebooking while driving crowd is so intent on playing with their toys instead of driving... why drive? Plenty of buses around to take out there.

[MX793]

Maybe we should have driver's training/tests like they have in Germany?

Also, if the cell phone / facebooking while driving crowd is so intent on playing with their toys instead of driving... why drive? Plenty of buses around to take out there.

It costs thousands of dollars to get a driver's license in Germany on account of all of the required tests and training.  With the relative lack of public transportation in much of the country, particularly poorer and more rural areas, that just isn't practical.

[MrH]

There are already these systems in place... for the millionth time can you or Raza point to an example of any of the hundreds of millions of cars w/computer controlled dynamic systems causing accidents?

Even your hypothetical scenario is goofy. "Dirty sensors"? Again have "dirty sensors" caused any accidents up to this point? And how can a "better idiot" be a danger in a car they have on complete autopilot????

Exactly. I have yet to hear of a stability control system going haywire and randomly start braking wheels until the car crashes into a tree and bursts into flames.

You anti-computer guys are way too late to the party to be complaining about this. There are a ton of systems already in place that are operating just fine. You're just oblivious to it.

[Northlands]

Some of us just don't want it to get to the point that we're removed from the equation completely.  Using the argument that there are tons of people out there who can't be bothered to pay attention while driving is just enabling them to be less responsible. It's not normally exclusive to one facet of their lives.

[Cookie Monster]

I'd trust a computer over the average driver.

[12,000 RPM]

Some of us just don't want it to get to the point that we're removed from the equation completely.  Using the argument that there are tons of people out there who can't be bothered to pay attention while driving is just enabling them to be less responsible. It's not normally exclusive to one facet of their lives.

For the record I want to keep driving. But changing culture is pretty rough, esp in today's PC + litigious climate. Many people don't give a shit or are too hardheaded to drive properly.

I was out w/some people and this chick was telling her boyfriend about how she was speeding and almost got in an accident, because she incorrectly guessed what a driver was doing and didn't have time to react. Knowing idiots like her are on the road make me want to put the bike away completely, TBH. It's not worth it. She'd be better off in an self-driving drunk tank

[MrH]

If these self driving cars do come out, I think you guys are just imagining a world where driving is dead.  Personally, I think the recreational driving market would explode.  You'd have a living room on wheels to deliver you to work every day, but then you'd have something like an Ariel Atom and lots of tracks around to exploit it.  Autonomous cars would drive the price down on something like an Atom to make it a $10-$15k toy.

I don't know about you guys, but that sounds like a pretty awesome scenario.  Sitting through rush hour traffic while napping or watching TV is much preferred over driving.  I'm imagining that episode of Top Gear where Jeremy tries to build a British living room in the back of a car   Fireplace, 4 seats all facing each other.

[NomisR]

There are already these systems in place... for the millionth time can you or Raza point to an example of any of the hundreds of millions of cars w/computer controlled dynamic systems causing accidents?

Even your hypothetical scenario is goofy. "Dirty sensors"? Again have "dirty sensors" caused any accidents up to this point? And how can a "better idiot" be a danger in a car they have on complete autopilot????

Again, you have to remember that these cars would be used daily.  I mean look at airplanes, it's all getting more and more automated and they still have problems with sensors like i.e. AF447 accident, while it's partly human error, there's still a part of it as the result of sensors. 

So if you put it all in the hands of a computer without human control, would it be better?  I don't know. 

And you equating computer today with cars being operated by computers in the future is not equal at all.  Since you won't have a computer to actually do steering, monitor traffic, and variety of other feats that are not performed by today's car. 

Apples and oranges comparison.  If you look at majority of the computerized systems today, they're pretty much passive systems that activates only when needed.  It's not the same as something that's on all the time, again.. SportySPIN is wrong with the analogies. 

[NomisR]

If these self driving cars do come out, I think you guys are just imagining a world where driving is dead.  Personally, I think the recreational driving market would explode.  You'd have a living room on wheels to deliver you to work every day, but then you'd have something like an Ariel Atom and lots of tracks around to exploit it.  Autonomous cars would drive the price down on something like an Atom to make it a $10-$15k toy.

I don't know about you guys, but that sounds like a pretty awesome scenario.  Sitting through rush hour traffic while napping or watching TV is much preferred over driving.  I'm imagining that episode of Top Gear where Jeremy tries to build a British living room in the back of a car   Fireplace, 4 seats all facing each other.

Like I said before, not in the forseeable future due to liability reasons for the manufacturers.  They would want the drivers to maintain somewhat of a control in case something is wrong so they can blame the drivers if someone gets run over.  Unless we have cars on rails, some sort of magnetic systems in the road so they simply follow the traffic flow, .. this might be possible.

But then again, if all cars follow this type of path, congestion would be less likely, but individual car ownership would likely go way down as well due to cost.

[MrH]

Again, you have to remember that these cars would be used daily.  I mean look at airplanes, it's all getting more and more automated and they still have problems with sensors like i.e. AF447 accident, while it's partly human error, there's still a part of it as the result of sensors. 

So if you put it all in the hands of a computer without human control, would it be better?  I don't know. 

And you equating computer today with cars being operated by computers in the future is not equal at all.  Since you won't have a computer to actually do steering, monitor traffic, and variety of other feats that are not performed by today's car. 

Apples and oranges comparison.  If you look at majority of the computerized systems today, they're pretty much passive systems that activates only when needed.  It's not the same as something that's on all the time, again.. SportySPIN is wrong with the analogies. 

Planes are even safer to travel in than a car.  And they're flying through the air!  Much more difficult concept.  If anything, you're arguing that automation is safer.

[Laconian]

I wonder if they can develop self driving software that will speed away recklessly if the driver doesn't have insurance. Because that happens all the fucking time with shitheaded humans.