Report: Fiat may supply Ram Van replacement for Dodge

[cawimmer430]

I need to ask. What was the point of a 6.0-l V8 in a Ford Econoline? Weekend N?rburgring track excursions? 1/4 stoplight races with base model Honda Civic DXs or something? 

I thought the businesses bought these cars for work and costs are a big issue. Even if they can afford it, an Econoline with a 6.0 V8 is still going to get piss poor fuel economy - and for what? What's the purpose of this engine in such a car? Do flower pots weigh more over there than here so that such an engine is required?

In Europe delivery vans generally come with only one (if at all) gasoline engine option and a variety of efficient diesel engine options. And the gasoline versions are only offered because there are businesses out there that need a delivery van but don't drive a lot and hence the diesel tax doesn't make sense for them. And still, virtually all businesses here who require these cars opt for a diesel engine.

[ifcar]

What would give you that conjecture?

If the Transit or whatever vehicle ends up being as cheap as the current option, I don't think they would, especially if it provides a serious upgrade in usability.

Sure, if it were just as cheap and just as useful, there wouldn't be a problem.

The last European van that came over cost $8,000 more than the E-Series, was stupidly slow, didn't have functional air conditioning, had an unfriendly driving position, and didn't sell more than 1/10 the Ford's level. I don't know how many of those issues were addressed in the Sprinter's redesign, but the first and the last certainly were not.

[cawimmer430]

The last European van that came over cost $8,000 more than the E-Series, was stupidly slow, didn't have functional air conditioning, had an unfriendly driving position, and didn't sell more than 1/10 the Ford's level. I don't know how many of those issues were addressed in the Sprinter's redesign, but the first and the last certainly were not.

Which car was that?

[ifcar]

[cawimmer430]

How is "speed" important for such a car? 

[ifcar]

If you fill it up with stuff, you need to be able to get up to speed on the highway.

[cawimmer430]

If you fill it up with stuff, you need to be able to get up to speed on the highway.

As in top speed or acceleration?

I've driven Sprinters before (one when I moved to Europe and had tons of furniture in the back) and I found the diesel engine perfectly suited to the task. The Sprinter I had on that day was a 313 CDI which means 130-horsepower and a manual transmission. My trip included 35 km of Autobahn. I never felt the Sprinter was underpowered in terms of getting up to speed. It's not a race car.

[280Z Turbo]

Horsepower matters in these applications.

[2o6]

Sure, if it were just as cheap and just as useful, there wouldn't be a problem.

The last European van that came over cost $8,000 more than the E-Series, was stupidly slow, didn't have functional air conditioning, had an unfriendly driving position, and didn't sell more than 1/10 the Ford's level. I don't know how many of those issues were addressed in the Sprinter's redesign, but the first and the last certainly were not.

If I recall correctly, the Sprinter is naturally more expensive and less popular than the Transit or any other European Van of the same size.

If you fill it up with stuff, you need to be able to get up to speed on the highway.

Have you driven a V6 Econoline? They are just as slow, if not slower.

As in top speed or acceleration?

I've driven Sprinters before (one when I moved to Europe and had tons of furniture in the back) and I found the diesel engine perfectly suited to the task. The Sprinter I had on that day was a 313 CDI which means 130-horsepower and a manual transmission. My trip included 35 km of Autobahn. I never felt the Sprinter was underpowered in terms of getting up to speed. It's not a race car.

+1. Lack of power can be overcome with gearing. (to an extent)


Just don't expect to fly.

I need to ask. What was the point of a 6.0-l V8 in a Ford Econoline? Weekend N?rburgring track excursions? 1/4 stoplight races with base model Honda Civic DXs or something? 

I thought the businesses bought these cars for work and costs are a big issue. Even if they can afford it, an Econoline with a 6.0 V8 is still going to get piss poor fuel economy - and for what? What's the purpose of this engine in such a car? Do flower pots weigh more over there than here so that such an engine is required?

In Europe delivery vans generally come with only one (if at all) gasoline engine option and a variety of efficient diesel engine options. And the gasoline versions are only offered because there are businesses out there that need a delivery van but don't drive a lot and hence the diesel tax doesn't make sense for them. And still, virtually all businesses here who require these cars opt for a diesel engine.

It's the only engine that will fit and turn decent numbers. The Econoline's basic structure dates back to the 70's, there aren't any modern smaller engines that will fit with without becoming too costly to update an old car.

[Mustangfan2003]

I guess GM doesn't have any euro style vans out there do they?

[2o6]

I guess GM doesn't have any euro style vans out there do they?

Opel Vivaro, but it's FWD and not as versatile in bodystyle as the Transit. (which is available in both FWD and RWD)

[Mustangfan2003]

Opel Vivaro, but it's FWD and not as versatile in bodystyle as the Transit. (which is available in both FWD and RWD)

Could work as a Transit Connect competitor if they wanted to give that a try

[2o6]

Could work as a Transit Connect competitor if they wanted to give that a try

It's too big.

[93JC]

Opel Vivaro, but it's FWD and not as versatile in bodystyle as the Transit. (which is available in both FWD and RWD)

GM sells the Movano in addition to the Vivaro. The Movano is about the same size as the Transit, is available in a host of body styles (chassis cab, panel van, high roof, etc.) and with either front or rear-wheel-drive.

[2o6]

GM sells the Movano in addition to the Vivaro. The Movano is about the same size as the Transit, is available in a host of body styles (chassis cab, panel van, high roof, etc.) and with either front or rear-wheel-drive.

Isn't that just a Renault Master in drag?

[93JC]

No more than the Renault Trafic is a Vivaro in drag.

[2o6]

No more than the Renault Trafic is a Vivaro in drag.

I forgot about that.

[cawimmer430]

It's the only engine that will fit and turn decent numbers. The Econoline's basic structure dates back to the 70's, there aren't any modern smaller engines that will fit with without becoming too costly to update an old car.

What's up with Ford and the 1970s? 

If they're going to take that route they could at least have kept the basic shape of the 1970s Ford LTD for the current Crown Victoria! 

[3.0L V6]

I need to ask. What was the point of a 6.0-l V8 in a Ford Econoline? Weekend N?rburgring track excursions? 1/4 stoplight races with base model Honda Civic DXs or something? 

The E-series can be used as the basis for U-hauls, refrigerated trucks, ambulances and small buses. Thus, a larger engine is required when vehicle + trailer weights approach the 22,000 lb GVWR of the E-350.

I could see that a V6 engine with a six speed automatic could be a worthwhile addition to the lineup in the future.

[280Z Turbo]

It's the only engine that will fit and turn decent numbers. The Econoline's basic structure dates back to the 70's, there aren't any modern smaller engines that will fit with without becoming too costly to update an old car.

(citation needed)

[cawimmer430]

The E-series can be used as the basis for U-hauls, refrigerated trucks, ambulances and small buses. Thus, a larger engine is required when vehicle + trailer weights approach the 22,000 lb GVWR of the E-350.

I could see that a V6 engine with a six speed automatic could be a worthwhile addition to the lineup in the future.

I think a torquey diesel would have been better suited. More torque and better gas mileage. 

The acceleration aspect seems like a "useless argument" to me. The Econonline 6.0 V8 and the Econoline Diesel are both limited to certain speeds in the city and on the highway. The gasoline E-Series might be marginally faster, but I doubt it'll affect the overall outcome of when both cars reach their destination.

Autobild once conducted a test between the top-of-the-line Mercedes E63 AMG and the base model E200 CDI. 514-hp vs 122-hp. The race took place from Southern Germany to Northern Germany. The E63 AMG won the race and the E200 CDI arrived 22 minutes later. They clearly stated that it cost more to run the E63 AMG in this race as it had to refuel more often and could only use its power advantage on the Autobahn (at the expense of crappy fuel economy). The E200 CDI was way more economical, even at higher speeds. 22 minutes? In the big picture that's nothing.

[Tave]

Well then, there's your answer Wimmer. In the US, there are no special speed restrictions for these types of vehicles. Of course European business owners wouldn't care about the additional power if they aren't even allowed to use it.

[Laconian]

Well then, there's your answer Wimmer. In the US, there are no special speed restrictions for these types of vehicles. Of course European business owners wouldn't care about the additional power if they aren't even allowed to use it.

In one ear, out the other -- it's much more fun to make fun about how excessive our engines are.

[cawimmer430]

Well then, there's your answer Wimmer. In the US, there are no special speed restrictions for these types of vehicles. Of course European business owners wouldn't care about the additional power if they aren't even allowed to use it.

My point is that even in the US a diesel Econoline would make more sense in terms of running costs than a gas-guzzling 6.0 V8 Econoline.

[MrH]

+1. Lack of power can be overcome with gearing. (to an extent)

[3.0L V6]

My point is that even in the US a diesel Econoline would make more sense in terms of running costs than a gas-guzzling 6.0 V8 Econoline.

There is no 6.0L gasoline Econoline. There are 4.6L V8, 5.4L V8 and 6.8L V10 models - all of which I suspect will be replaced by the new 3.7L V6, 5.0L V8 and 6.2L V8 and six speed automatics in the near future.

Ford used to offer the 6.0L Powerstroke diesel in the E-series but discontinued it. The newer, larger 6.4L and new 6.7L diesel engine were/are not available - I suspect the cost of the engines dissuaded many potential buyers or the available transmissions cannot handle the torque of the diesel engines. Maybe Ford will offer one in the future if current fuel prices stay high.

However, GM does offer the 6.6L Duramax diesel engine in the Express 2500.

[cawimmer430]

There is no 6.0L gasoline Econoline. There are 4.6L V8, 5.4L V8 and 6.8L V10 models - all of which I suspect will be replaced by the new 3.7L V6, 5.0L V8 and 6.2L V8 and six speed automatics in the near future.

Ford used to offer the 6.0L Powerstroke diesel in the E-series but discontinued it. The newer, larger 6.4L and new 6.7L diesel engine were/are not available - I suspect the cost of the engines dissuaded many potential buyers or the available transmissions cannot handle the torque of the diesel engines. Maybe Ford will offer one in the future if current fuel prices stay high.

However, GM does offer the 6.6L Duramax diesel engine in the Express 2500.

[2o6]

I wonder how cost effective it is to keep the E-series going. The basic design is super old, older than the Ranger IIRC.

[Mustangfan2003]

I was wondering why the new diesel wasn't offered in the E series since that's the popular choice for ambulances, explains why I'm seeing more now based on the F350.