Florida sued for ticketing motorists who warn others of speed traps

[GoCougs]

Yet, the idea that traffic stops should only be used "in instances of grave circumstances" defies logic. For example, the VAST majority of intoxicated drivers I arrest are stopped for minor traffic violations...most commonly, equipment violations. Obviously, a minor equipment violation isn't a "grave circumstance," but stops for those simple violations result in the arrest of countless dangerous impared drivers. Likewise, it's not the least bit uncommon to get serious criminal violations from simple traffic stops.

Nah, basic logic at hand is, Why do so many DUI if there are laws against it? The solution to DUI is not pulling over drivers for IMO arbitrary and capricious "enforcement" in the hopes of snagging a drunk driver. The solution to DUI is far tougher DUI laws and reversal of societal sentiment that addiction is a "disease." Make drunks accountable to the extent of their crimes and they'll learn right quick.

[bing_oh]

None of that is true, or relevent to the fact that normal people suddenly become major targets for law enforcement every time they get behind the wheel.

Law enforcement targets violations of the law and the people who do them. Whether you think they're "normal people" or not. As for them being "major targets, I think you're overestimating the time and resources LE puts into traffic enforcement for the sake of traffic enforcement.

The illogicalness of law enforcement is the only reason this thread exists. Don't go there, girlfriend.

That you fail to grasp the logic behind law enforcement tactics doesn't make what we do and why we do it illogical. It just so happen to be outside of the scope of your understanding. Unfortunately, like many people, you have decided to stick to your preconceived notions and prejudices instead of listening to someone who might have some knowledge and experience in a field that you don't have...and passed up on a chance to expand your own understanding by doing so.

[bing_oh]

Nah, basic logic at hand is, Why do so many DUI if there are laws against it? The solution to DUI is not pulling over drivers for IMO arbitrary and capricious "enforcement" in the hopes of snagging a drunk driver. The solution to DUI is far tougher DUI laws and reversal of societal sentiment that addiction is a "disease." Make drunks accountable to the extent of their crimes and they'll learn right quick.

You're not going to get an argument from me that DUI's need to have harsher penalties, but you seem to think that LE can address that issue. In reality, that's a judicial and legislative issue, beyond the scope of influence for LE. We work within the guidelines given to us and choose the best solution we have.

As for LE doing "arbitrary and capricious enforcement in the hopes of snagging a drunk," maybe you'd like to suggest a more efficient way of identifying intoxicated drivers from your extensive arsenal of experience.

[Eye of the Tiger]

Law enforcement targets violations of the law and the people who do them. Whether you think they're "normal people" or not. As for them being "major targets, I think you're overestimating the time and resources LE puts into traffic enforcement for the sake of traffic enforcement.

That you fail to grasp the logic behind law enforcement tactics doesn't make what we do and why we do it illogical. It just so happen to be outside of the scope of your understanding. Unfortunately, like many people, you have decided to stick to your preconceived notions and prejudices instead of listening to someone who might have some knowledge and experience in a field that you don't have...and passed up on a chance to expand your own understanding by doing so.

Stop making this about me, and I'll stick with my preconceived notions (whatever those are) until I see evidence to the contrary, that's how logic works.

[bing_oh]

Stop making this about me, and I'll stick with my preconceived notions (whatever those are) until I see evidence to the contrary, that's how logic works.

And, yet, I've dolled out significant contrary evidence and you don't relent.

[Tave]

No one in this discussion has doled out any evidence to support their position on move over laws, and that includes both sides. At best we have a collection of personal anecdotes and speculation.

[Byteme]

This is the anarchists fallacy.

The truth is that people are responsible for themselves, and placing blame on others is the easy, less resistant path to take.

You'll note I didn't say the cop's to blame.  I simply pointed out the frequent unintended consequences of the stop.  And further I'll note that there are frequently accidents that result from rubberneckers slowing down and jockying for position to watch the action.  That's more confusion and damage than some businessman tooling along at 5 over would likely create. 

[NomisR]

Nice way to shift blame from the real source of the danger...ie, drivers who are so totally oblivious of thier surroundings that they don't notice a cruiser with a billion candlepower of flashing strobes and LEDs along the side of the roadway in enough time to take approprate action...to the people who are out there trying to do their jobs and make the roadways a little safer for those same oblivious drivers.

I have never gotten a ticket for realistically driving too dangerously.  They were for driving above an arbitrary speed limit in broad daylight on a straight road with visibility for miles and really light traffic.  How does that make anyone safer? 

[dazzleman]

I have never gotten a ticket for realistically driving too dangerously.  They were for driving above an arbitrary speed limit in broad daylight on a straight road with visibility for miles and really light traffic.  How does that make anyone safer? 

But I bet there were times when you drove dangerously but didn't get ticketed.

[bing_oh]

I have never gotten a ticket for realistically driving too dangerously.  They were for driving above an arbitrary speed limit in broad daylight on a straight road with visibility for miles and really light traffic.  How does that make anyone safer?

Well, as the perfect driver, you have a few hundred thousand other mere mortals out there whose bad habits you have to change. Better get started.

[dazzleman]

Well, as the perfect driver, you have a few hundred thousand other mere mortals out there whose bad habits you have to change. Better get started.

Bing_oh, do you find that in your off-duty driving, you take liberties with speed because you know you're pretty much ticket-proof?

[bing_oh]

Bing_oh, do you find that in your off-duty driving, you take liberties with speed because you know you're pretty much ticket-proof?

Actually, I don't take any more liberties with speed now than I did before I was a LEO. The only big difference is, I tend to speed within my personal on-duty guidelines for pulling people over for speed, so I rarely if ever get stopped in the first place. I'm also not exactly ticket-proof, but that's by personal choice. I never have nor would I badge my way out of a speeding ticket...I'd take the citation, say thanks to the officer, and pay it. The only time that I'd ID myself on a stop is if I'm armed, and that's because I'm required to by law.

[dazzleman]

Actually, I don't take any more liberties with speed now than I did before I was a LEO. The only big difference is, I tend to speed within my personal on-duty guidelines for pulling people over for speed, so I rarely if ever get stopped in the first place. I'm also not exactly ticket-proof, but that's by personal choice. I never have nor would I badge my way out of a speeding ticket...I'd take the citation, say thanks to the officer, and pay it. The only time that I'd ID myself on a stop is if I'm armed, and that's because I'm required to by law.

Man, you're a Boy Scout....

[bing_oh]

Man, you're a Boy Scout....

Eh. Maybe so, but I think it's only fair. The only time I've gotten out of a ticket was when I got pulled over for a very legitimate speeding by a trooper I knew. I wouldn't have been pissed if he had written me...it would have been a righteous ticket. The only other times I can think that I've been pulled over since I've been a LEO have been minor violations by officers drunk-hunting. I used to get pulled over in college when I worked in downtown Dayton on the midnight shift because I'd have to drive through known drug and prostitution areas. Obviously, a white boy from the burbs didn't fit in such areas except as a customer. Those didn't even bother me except when one of them made me late for work by taking 20 minutes on a warning...that only pissed me off because I'm never late for work.

[dazzleman]

Eh. Maybe so, but I think it's only fair. The only time I've gotten out of a ticket was when I got pulled over for a very legitimate speeding by a trooper I knew. I wouldn't have been pissed if he had written me...it would have been a righteous ticket. The only other times I can think that I've been pulled over since I've been a LEO have been minor violations by officers drunk-hunting. I used to get pulled over in college when I worked in downtown Dayton on the midnight shift because I'd have to drive through known drug and prostitution areas. Obviously, a white boy from the burbs didn't fit in such areas except as a customer. Those didn't even bother me except when one of them made me late for work by taking 20 minutes on a warning...that only pissed me off because I'm never late for work.

Hah, you absorbed that Catholic school indoctrination a LOT better than you acknowledge....

[bing_oh]

Hah, you absorbed that Catholic school indoctrination a LOT better than you acknowledge....

Maybe so. Ironically, it's the religon stuff that never stuck with me...the lobotomization and moral brainwashing are still mostly intact.

[hounddog]

None of that is true, or relevent to the fact that normal people suddenly become major targets for law enforcement every time they get behind the wheel.


The illogicalness of law enforcement is the only reason this thread exists. Don't go there, girlfriend.

Congratulations, you managed to argue against but also prove my point in one post.

[dazzleman]

Maybe so. Ironically, it's the religon stuff that never stuck with me...the lobotomization and moral brainwashing are still mostly intact.

Then they did their job....

Actually, I think a lot like you (though I don't drive within tolerance on the highway... ).  It's good to have LEOs who don't set out to abuse their position (and I think most don't in any type of meaningful way).

[r0tor]

As for LE doing "arbitrary and capricious enforcement in the hopes of snagging a drunk," maybe you'd like to suggest a more efficient way of identifying intoxicated drivers from your extensive arsenal of experience.

Here is an idea, pull over the Fucking drivers that are too impaired to actually drive!

[bing_oh]

Here is an idea, pull over the Fucking drivers that are too impaired to actually drive!

Oh, so you're of the school that believes that I should wait till they're playing dodg'em driving eastbound in the westbound lane of travel on the interstate or smear themselves into a telephone pole/tree/semi/family sedan before they should be stopped because at that point they're obviously "too impaired." Are you also of the belief that we should eliminate BAC as an "arbitrary" measurement of impairment and that the BAC of .08 is too low? Yea, uh...no.

[r0tor]

In Texas you can still drink while driving.  I'm not exactly afraid to drive in Texas. 90% of mass murdering dui drivers are not anywhere near the .08 mark. 

Furthermore, the real drunk avoid the roads where checkpoints are common.  I don't know how many times now I have wasted my damn time in DUI lines while drunks are out of control on other roads with no police officers around because they are all on a main road trying to hose down someone that drank 3 beers at the bar.

[bing_oh]

In Texas you can still drink while driving.  I'm not exactly afraid to drive in Texas. 90% of mass murdering dui drivers are not anywhere near the .08 mark.

Furthermore, the real drunk avoid the roads where checkpoints are common.  I don't know how many times now I have wasted my damn time in DUI lines while drunks are out of control on other roads with no police officers around because they are all on a main road trying to hose down someone that drank 3 beers at the bar.

Your concept of the .08 limit is, at best, misinformed. I've explained before that I've been a test subject for new officers learning how to administer Standardize Field Sobriety Tests, meaning that I've actually drunk in a highly controlled environment where the point was to get me right to the .08 limit. First, let me assure you that most 12 year old girls wouldn't be at .08 on three beers. The BS that I hear about people blowing over the limit on two or three beers is just that...BS. I know what .08 feels like. There's absolutely NO way I'd drive at an .08. .08 isn't tipsy or buzzed....08 is flat-out drunk.

Who said anything about checkpoints? Checkpoints are PR stunts. If you want to catch a criminal, you don't announce where you're gonna be looking for him. The fact of the matter is, most checkpoints don't catch DUI's. Most "checkpoint DUI's" are caught on "saturation patrol" around the checkpoint...drunks who avoid entering the checkpoint. Beyond that, DUI checkpoints simply publicize DUI enforcement, making an attempt to change public perception about drinking and driving and encouraging people to use a DD.

As for Texas and their DUI laws, the legal limit in Texas is the same as it is in every other state. That's right, Texas' limit is .08! Drinking and driving isn't legal in Texas, open container in a motor vehicle is. But, I suppose small details like that don't support your arguments, so we'll just not mention them. As for 90% of "mass murdering DUI drivers" being well in excess of the .08 limit, I'd like to see you support that. I don't recall seeing stats on the BAC of the average "mass murdering DUI driver" as compiled by the FBI...

[NomisR]

But I bet there were times when you drove dangerously but didn't get ticketed.

less than safe, yes.  Dangerous.. no. 

[NomisR]

Well, as the perfect driver, you have a few hundred thousand other mere mortals out there whose bad habits you have to change. Better get started.

If I could, I would.  Unfortunately, nobody is going about doing it including LE.  speeding seems to be the easier target.

[Eye of the Tiger]

The perfect driver is obviously able to avoid all contact with the mere mortals who cannot drive.

[NomisR]

Your concept of the .08 limit is, at best, misinformed. I've explained before that I've been a test subject for new officers learning how to administer Standardize Field Sobriety Tests, meaning that I've actually drunk in a highly controlled environment where the point was to get me right to the .08 limit. First, let me assure you that most 12 year old girls wouldn't be at .08 on three beers. The BS that I hear about people blowing over the limit on two or three beers is just that...BS. I know what .08 feels like. There's absolutely NO way I'd drive at an .08. .08 isn't tipsy or buzzed....08 is flat-out drunk.

Who said anything about checkpoints? Checkpoints are PR stunts. If you want to catch a criminal, you don't announce where you're gonna be looking for him. The fact of the matter is, most checkpoints don't catch DUI's. Most "checkpoint DUI's" are caught on "saturation patrol" around the checkpoint...drunks who avoid entering the checkpoint. Beyond that, DUI checkpoints simply publicize DUI enforcement, making an attempt to change public perception about drinking and driving and encouraging people to use a DD.

As for Texas and their DUI laws, the legal limit in Texas is the same as it is in every other state. That's right, Texas' limit is .08! Drinking and driving isn't legal in Texas, open container in a motor vehicle is. But, I suppose small details like that don't support your arguments, so we'll just not mention them. As for 90% of "mass murdering DUI drivers" being well in excess of the .08 limit, I'd like to see you support that. I don't recall seeing stats on the BAC of the average "mass murdering DUI driver" as compiled by the FBI...

So you guys have given 3 beers to a 12 year old girl to see if she exceeds .08 BAC? 

[Raza]

Your concept of the .08 limit is, at best, misinformed. I've explained before that I've been a test subject for new officers learning how to administer Standardize Field Sobriety Tests, meaning that I've actually drunk in a highly controlled environment where the point was to get me right to the .08 limit. First, let me assure you that most 12 year old girls wouldn't be at .08 on three beers. The BS that I hear about people blowing over the limit on two or three beers is just that...BS. I know what .08 feels like. There's absolutely NO way I'd drive at an .08. .08 isn't tipsy or buzzed....08 is flat-out drunk.

Who said anything about checkpoints? Checkpoints are PR stunts. If you want to catch a criminal, you don't announce where you're gonna be looking for him. The fact of the matter is, most checkpoints don't catch DUI's. Most "checkpoint DUI's" are caught on "saturation patrol" around the checkpoint...drunks who avoid entering the checkpoint. Beyond that, DUI checkpoints simply publicize DUI enforcement, making an attempt to change public perception about drinking and driving and encouraging people to use a DD.

As for Texas and their DUI laws, the legal limit in Texas is the same as it is in every other state. That's right, Texas' limit is .08! Drinking and driving isn't legal in Texas, open container in a motor vehicle is. But, I suppose small details like that don't support your arguments, so we'll just not mention them. As for 90% of "mass murdering DUI drivers" being well in excess of the .08 limit, I'd like to see you support that. I don't recall seeing stats on the BAC of the average "mass murdering DUI driver" as compiled by the FBI...

I'd like to be breathalyzed at the point where I think I'd be no longer capable of driving and see how far off that is from the .08.  I think I'd be pretty close, honestly.  I'm fairly in tune with my body and very conservative when it comes to drinking and driving. 

[Eye of the Tiger]

I will drive unless I'm passed out. I'm pretty sure I pass out at .08.

[r0tor]

I'm going to start driving drunk just so I can actually measure my BAC

[Eye of the Tiger]

I'm going to start driving drunk just so I can actually measure my BAC

Good idea. If you crash, you were over .08. If you don't, you were under .08.