FWD mini Mercedes SLK in the works

[cawimmer430]

Young people without money shouldn't buy a MB. They can't afford them and they can't pay for the upkeep on one or the maintenance while it's under warranty. Correct me if I'm wrong but brands like BMW and MB like for you to bring the cars into their dealers while under warranty for oil changes and stuff like that? MB should never be about young people without money. It's about old people with money.

Brands have to attract customers these days now more than ever. Competition is fiercer than ever before.

Young people have to be attracted with a car that'll appeal to them.

[2o6]

Brands have to attract customers these days now more than ever. Competition is fiercer than ever before.

Young people have to be attracted with a car that'll appeal to them.

Then call it something else.

[cawimmer430]

Wimmer, you are barking up the wrong tree.



But in other news, I think a small FWD, smaller SLK is a terrible idea. That's going to be like A Mercedes version of this:



Which is a horrible idea.

I don't really see a problem with the Wind. I've only seen a handful around but it is in line with Renaults philosophy: an affordable and stylish and fun car for the masses. I see nothing wrong with that.

[2o6]

I don't really see a problem with the Wind. I've only seen a handful around but it is in line with Renaults philosophy: an affordable and stylish and fun car for the masses. I see nothing wrong with that.

I don't have a problem with the Wind. But as a Mercedes, it's a terrible idea. It loses exclusivity and cost that makes Mercedes a luxury make.

[Laconian]

Brands have to attract customers these days now more than ever. Competition is fiercer than ever before.

Young people have to be attracted with a car that'll appeal to them.

I think BMW had the right strategy with Mini - they could play in a new segment of lower-priced cars without mortgaging their premium perception.

[2o6]

I think BMW had the right strategy with Mini - they could play in a new segment of lower-priced cars without mortgaging their premium perception.

Mini isn't cheap, though.

[Onslaught]

Then call it something else.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Come out with another brand if you want to make cars for normal people. IN the US MB isn't a normal car brand. It's not like Germany where you can get a cheap one that's your domestic car like Ford is to us. Here MB stands for money.
They don't need to bring cheap cars to the US with the name MB on them.

[cawimmer430]

...but, yeah. If Mercedes wants to be held to a higher standard to consumers (H&H and shit), then they shouldn't build cars with the intent of appealing to a less affluent demographic. The purpose of being an aspirational brand is defeated if people don't have to aspire very hard to buy your product.

In 1930s Germany, if you walked into an MB showroom, there was this:



130H - rear engine, barely cracking 30-horsepower (it had 26-horsepower), a car for the masses.


And next to it was this:



500K Spezial Roadster - packing the most advanced supercharger technology of the day, inline-8 with 100-horsepower in stock form and 180-horsepower when the supercharger was engaged.



What's the problem? 

[Onslaught]

Mini isn't cheap, though.

Because they sell so damn well. The Miata was dirt as cheap in 89 when it came out. The Mazda figured out that people would pay way more then what they were asking and bam, it went up big time in price in one year.
They sell the mini at the price they do because people are happy to buy it. And really, you can't get anything like it for less. Unless you think the 500 is like a Mini. And I don't

[Onslaught]

In 1930s Germany, if you walked into an MB showroom, there was this:



What's the problem? 

The problem is the Germany part. MB is your domestic brand and I don't have a problem with them having cars for everyone there.
As I said before, MB is something different here in the US. Bring them out under another name and it's better.

[Laconian]

The problem is the Germany part. MB is your domestic brand and I don't have a problem with them having cars for everyone there.
As I said before, MB is something different here in the US. Bring them out under another name and it's better.

And it's not US customers being dumb uncultured idiots that made it that way - Mercedes has worked relentlessly at cultivating an image in the US that equates Mercedes==expensive==success.

[2o6]

In 1930s Germany, if you walked into an MB showroom, there was this:



130H - rear engine, barely cracking 30-horsepower (it had 26-horsepower), a car for the masses.


And next to it was this:



500K Spezial Roadster - packing the most advanced supercharger technology of the day, inline-8 with 100-horsepower in stock form and 180-horsepower when the supercharger was engaged.



What's the problem? 

That top car was still not cheap by comparison to the other motoring cars of the masses.

[cawimmer430]

Bring them out under another name and it's better.

Problem is, creating another brand, marketing the brand and giving it a personality costs a lot of money. And then this brand has to be positioned in such a way that buyers will automatically think about a Mercedes-Benz if they want to upgrade. The whole thing might not even work in the end.

With the Mercedes-Benz brand, people already know what the brand is and about. It's a safer bet.

Globally Mercedes sells their entry-level and high-end luxury cars. In fact Mercedes sells their base entry-level cars all over the world except in the United States.

And it's not US customers being dumb uncultured idiots that made it that way - Mercedes has worked relentlessly at cultivating an image in the US that equates Mercedes==expensive==success.

Still, the market is changing. Do you think that a few years ago Lexus would have released something like a CT200h in the US? People are demanding smaller and more efficient luxury cars and the brands have to respond. This SLA will offer better fuel economy and at the same time be a magnet for attracting people to the brand. I think it will work here in Europe and elsewhere and I am pretty sure it will work in the US to.

[cawimmer430]

That top car was still not cheap by comparison to the other motoring cars of the masses.

Well it was a Mercedes after all. But the people shopping for it wanted Mercedes qualities without going for the big stuff - literally.

There was also a more powerful 150H variant by the way.

[Vinsanity]

Does Daimler still own the Smart brand? This could easily be marketed as "Smartcar-meets-SL" in U.S. Smart showrooms. If it gets hybrid-like fuel economy, lots of people would pay a moderate price premium over a Miata. Not that I would, though.

As for the Lexus CT200, American consumers have been clamoring for a luxury Prius. Lots of rich people in the U.S. have Priuseses as their commuter cars, and the Lexus CT is a way to capitalize on that.

[cawimmer430]

Does Daimler still own the Smart brand? This could easily be marketed as "Smartcar-meets-SL" in U.S. Smart showrooms. If it gets hybrid-like fuel economy, lots of people would pay a moderate price premium over a Miata. Not that I would, though.

They do.

Do Smart customers in the US associate their car with Mercedes-Benz in any way?

My driving experience with Smarts has taught me this:

ForTwo = OK
ForFour = Best Smart there was
Roadster = Biggest POS Smart there was

As for the Lexus CT200, American consumers have been clamoring for a luxury Prius. Lots of rich people in the U.S. have Priuseses as their commuters, and the Lexus CT is a way to capitalize on that.

Ah, that never occurred to me.  

[Laconian]

Roadster was a POS? IIRC Evo enjoyed theirs.

[Onslaught]

They do.

Do Smart customers in the US associate their car with Mercedes-Benz in any way?

Yes, I know many people in the Smart Car club and they all brag about it being a "Mercedes."

[cawimmer430]

Roadster was a POS? IIRC Evo enjoyed theirs.

It was crap.

I've driven two of them and on both the transmission was jerky and unresponsive and the steering wheel had seizure issues (it felt like a rock at times and wouldn't move). The whole thing felt like a poorly made piece of shit.

Trust me, a Dodge Diplomat is a quality car compared to it.

The turbo engine was powerful though when the transmission had shifted into the correct gear.

A few people I know who have also driven these cars complained about the jerky transmission and the crap steering seizures. And the Roadster was also mega overpriced.

[cawimmer430]

Yes, I know many people in the Smart Car club and they all brag about it being a "Mercedes."

They're actually driving a Swatch.

[Galaxy]

Yes, I know many people in the Smart Car club and they all brag about it being a "Mercedes."

It says "powered by Mercedes-Benz" on the engine cover, at least on the first generation.

[93JC]

I cannot speak for US customers but Canadian ones certainly associate Smart with Mercedes-Benz. Smarts are sold at Mercedes-Benz dealerships.

[Onslaught]

I cannot speak for US customers but Canadian ones certainly associate Smart with Mercedes-Benz. Smarts are sold at Mercedes-Benz dealerships.

The only place to get a Smart is at a local MB dealer here too. And they push them way in the back so people don't see them from the road.

[Hachee]

I don't think it is such a big issue in Europe where manufacturers have always produced cars for the common man and the elite under one brand name. Citroen, Fiat, Opel, Renault, Peugeot, Lancia, Talbot/Simca, Alfa Romeo, BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagen and even Audi all fit that scheme.

Let's take Citroen for example - they had the simple and cheap 2CV for the masses while at the same time they had the luxurious (it certainly was at the time) DS and later CX and SM models. The CX was also offered in different trims ranging from mainstream to premium. The DS and SM were competitors to Mercedes' products of the day.

Opel - they offered the economical Kadett models for the masses, then inbetween cars like the Commodore while at the same time they had luxury cars with American V8s like the Diplomat, Kapit?n and Admiral. At during the '50s to '70s Opel was actually a Mercedes-Benz competitor. Only in the late 1970s did they start dumping the fullsize luxury cars focusing instead on poorly made mainstream cars with crap designs.

Even Volkswagen - we all know about the affordable Beetle, Golf but Volkswagen also produced a car called the Volkswagen K70. It was designed by the same man who designed the famous NSU Ro80 - Claus Luthe. The K70 was a premium car for Volkswagen and the results show it: it sold poorly.

Fiat - the luxury cars they produced were many: The Fiat Dino GT with a Ferrari V6 engine, the Fiat 130 Coupe and 130 Sedan - these were all luxury. At the same time you could still buy a Fiat 850 mini car and the 124/125 models - which were mass market cheap mainstream cars.

I could go on but I think you get the point. 

I think this might be a bit hard to understand for Americans who just aren't used to that. There was never a small Cadillac until the Cimarron arrived and Cadillac certainly never needed to worry about small and fuel-efficient cars at the time since those cars could be offered by Buick or Oldsmobile or perhaps Chevrolet and Pontiac. Things were different in Europe where manufacturers had always, even before World War II, sold economy and luxury cars under the same brand name.

Yes, all the mainstream makers marketed top of the line "luxury cars".  But the big problem for them was that they didn't sell well.  I may be in the US, but I know enough about the European market to know that cars like Citroen CX/XM, Peugoet 604/5/7, Open Senators, large Fiats, Renault 25s, etc, etc, sold very poorly compared to similar Mercedes models that cost more.  When they sold, it was only in their local markets.  People spending big money bought Mercedes, BMW, etc because they wanted the prestige.  And this is what led Mercedes to start expanding downmarket - the prestige factor enabled them to sell smaller cars at premium prices.  But IMO, the big problem with this is that the sales volumes keep rising, and it's diluting the brands.  It's not a problem for them now, in terms of sales, but I think in the long run it's a mistake. 

I think the othe big problem is that in the past, even a base Mercedes with little luxury equipment has something "over" its better equipped competitors.  I don't think this is the case any longer, when just about every manufacturer is capable of building safe and well built cars.  Mercedes needs to stay special in order to maintain its premium pricing, and diluting the brand by being in every single niche is going to be bad in the long run. 

I do think, at least in the US, people associate Smart with Mercedes, and they'd be better served by developing the brand with some decent cars.  And BMW should leave the lower, FWD end to MINI, which seems to be doing it quite well.

[Raza]

Still, the market is changing. Do you think that a few years ago Lexus would have released something like a CT200h in the US? People are demanding smaller and more efficient luxury cars and the brands have to respond. This SLA will offer better fuel economy and at the same time be a magnet for attracting people to the brand. I think it will work here in Europe and elsewhere and I am pretty sure it will work in the US to.

No one buys a roadster for fuel economy. 

[cawimmer430]

No one buys a roadster for fuel economy. 

SLK200 Kompressor? SLK250 CDI?

[cawimmer430]

Yes, all the mainstream makers marketed top of the line "luxury cars".  But the big problem for them was that they didn't sell well.  I may be in the US, but I know enough about the European market to know that cars like Citroen CX/XM, Peugoet 604/5/7, Open Senators, large Fiats, Renault 25s, etc, etc, sold very poorly compared to similar Mercedes models that cost more.  When they sold, it was only in their local markets.  People spending big money bought Mercedes, BMW, etc because they wanted the prestige.  And this is what led Mercedes to start expanding downmarket - the prestige factor enabled them to sell smaller cars at premium prices.  But IMO, the big problem with this is that the sales volumes keep rising, and it's diluting the brands.  It's not a problem for them now, in terms of sales, but I think in the long run it's a mistake.

Well cars like the DS were actually quite successful from a sales perspective. Even the big Opel luxury cars were popular among the elite. The bigger luxurious Fiats were also made in smaller numbers for exclusivity purposes I suppose.

By the early 1990s the market for premium cars from mainstream manufacturers was ultimately in poor shape and that is a reason for the failure of the Citroen XM, Peugeot 604 and Renault Safrane for example. I remember that were popular as company cars for their low running costs, comfort and space but they weren't popular amongst private buyers who sought more image and went to Audi, BMW, MB etc.

I think the othe big problem is that in the past, even a base Mercedes with little luxury equipment has something "over" its better equipped competitors.  I don't think this is the case any longer, when just about every manufacturer is capable of building safe and well built cars.  Mercedes needs to stay special in order to maintain its premium pricing, and diluting the brand by being in every single niche is going to be bad in the long run. 

You're right. The competition from different market niches has caught up and offer features that a few years ago could only be found in luxury cars. It has become harder for luxury manufacturers to distinguish themselves in that regard.

But I also think the luxury market is changing. Globally cars like the Mercedes A/B class and BMW 1-Series Hatch are popular or ACCEPTED on all continents except in America (B-Class is sold in Canada, not sure about the 1-Series Hatch like mine). If the world can accept smaller hatch-style luxury cars, America will eventually follow IMO.

[Raza]

SLK200 Kompressor? SLK250 CDI?

No one in the US.  And arguably, those two are bought for the badge. 

[cawimmer430]

No one in the US.  And arguably, those two are bought for the badge. 

Performance wise those two are also more than adequate.

PERFORMANCE IS SUBJECTIVE.

I'd be happy with an SLK200 Kompressor or SLK250 CDI. I don't need an SLK350 or AMG.

[Raza]

Performance wise those two are also more than adequate.

PERFORMANCE IS SUBJECTIVE.

I'd be happy with an SLK200 Kompressor or SLK250 CDI. I don't need an SLK350 or AMG.

You'd be just as happy in an Eos.