The next 3.....

[AltinD]

You should also try paying for that BMW and that Corolla back-to-back. Unless you use the same reasoning you tend to use on this board, you'd see the value proposition in the Corolla.

I am not the one saying both cars are similar, so I can accept the price difference. You people are the ones who can't accept it and come up with silly "justifications" why the more expensive one suck and the vanilla boring one rules.

[CJ]

Car is being revealed on Facebook right now.  Looks very good, but I'm having a hard time telling if it's a 5-series or a 3-series.  They look far too similar now.

[cawimmer430]

I don't doubt that a 143-hp BMW 1-series is perfectly adequate for daily driving; hoardes of people poke around with less power in Corollas and Priuses all the time. But something has to justify the higher price tag BESIDES a fancy badge and H&H. It doesn't necessarily have to be more power, but it has to be something that quantifiably enhances the driver's experience. For example, one might choose a BMW 128i over a cheaper and more powerful V6 Mustang or Camaro because they value sharper and more nimble handling.

Thing is, there are tangible and intangible features in cars. Some intangible features may include safety systems. Brand A spends nothing on safety, Brand B spends a lot of their money on safety features and improving them. Brand A has a cheap car, Brand B has an expensive car because of those safety features. <--- This is a simple example of why there are price differences among others.

Also, "prestige pricing". Apple for example does this - and people are still willing to pay the price. Everything you can do on a Mac today you can literally do with a Windows as well. Yet in my circle of friends there are still people who insist on buying an Apple computer because:

A) It looks good! (DESIGN)
B) It's so cool and everyone has one! (FAD)
C) It's a Mac/Apple! (BRAND)

Now take this analogy and substitute certain car brands in there for Apple.

But what exactly does H&H add to the driving experience?

Nothing.

It's purely psychological like "feel good factor". You're happy because you own a car from a prestigious brand such as _________. So you know it wasn't good value, but it's from a brand with an interesting and impressive history.

[CJ]

The problem with your first statement is that every brand spends billions on safety research.  No brand would ever think about releasing an unsafe vehicle.  A Mercedes might be more safe, but is it worth an extra $10,000 to the average family?  Absolutely not.  The Hyundai Sonata is an IIHS Top Safety Pick and is very well equipped and stylish at $24,000.  A base model C-Class that is smaller, less usable, with worse fuel economy, is $10,000 more expensive.  Why pay for a the more expensive Mercedes if you need a family oriented vehicle that is reliable, safe, economical, and practical?  Answer:  You don't.

[cawimmer430]

You're making shit up/exaggerating.

Sarcasm is part of my style. 

My point was and still is, you can't get angry when people question your choices in cars while you do the same to others. If you want to pay more for a BMW with the performance + functionality of a Corolla because of it's roundel, fine. But don't bash someone who doesn't care about that horseshit for buying the Corolla.

People are free to get what they want.

It just seems to me that so many people are taking out a second mortgage on their house just to buy a luxury car when they really should be driving a Tata Nano or a gorgeous Plymouth Volare for only $200 (such great value is unheard of in this day and age).

[cawimmer430]

Wimmer's 118i doesn't sound all that great, all he does is complain about it. He prob would have been better served by a Matrix (if they sold it there)

It's a good car overall but it's not perfect.

My main complaints are:
-Fuel consumption isn't what BMW claims it is
-Loud engine at 130 km/h
-No usable leg space in the rear when two tall people are sitting upfront

That's it. Those are my main complaints. The small trunk of the car was irrelevant until I decided to start my own business. If I was just a regular Joe who didn't need to haul so much stuff with me all the time then the trunk space of the 118i is just fine. I can even transport two/three folded bicycles in that car with the rear seats folded down.

I doubt a Matrix would serve me better and it would probably drive like crap. At least the 118i feels solid and drives quite sporty (not that I really care about the sporty handling part to be honest). I've ridden in the newer Toyotas of some friends and I can honestly say they feel (subjective opinion) cheap and seem to lack the overall solidity feel of a BMW 1-Series for instance.

Plus, I do place emphasis on design and there isn't a single Toyota sold here that can actually be described as stylish.

[cawimmer430]

The problem with your first statement is that every brand spends billions on safety research.  No brand would ever think about releasing an unsafe vehicle.  A Mercedes might be more safe, but is it worth an extra $10,000 to the average family?  Absolutely not.  The Hyundai Sonata is an IIHS Top Safety Pick and is very well equipped and stylish at $24,000.  A base model C-Class that is smaller, less usable, with worse fuel economy, is $10,000 more expensive.  Why pay for a the more expensive Mercedes if you need a family oriented vehicle that is reliable, safe, economical, and practical?  Answer:  You don't.

There are so many factors that influence the buying decision we just can keep arguing about this all day.

Someone prefers the design of the C-Class over a Hyundai and is therefore willing to pay more for that car just to enjoy that design for example. Someone likes the way the more expensive car drives over a cheaper car in the same class. The more expensive car has psychological advantages for a potential buyer etc. etc. etc. Trivial things like this influence buying decisions.

And some people simply think the more expensive car is worth the asking price because they've had good experiences with the brand or they trust the brand etc. When you're in the supermarket, do you buy spices for say $ 5 from McCormick or from some unknown Chinese brand that sells 'em for $ 0.99?

By the way, I worked for a Benz dealer in Munich during a summer many years ago. I was in the internal mail department and my job was to deliver mail from section to section. There were many letters from customers who had had accidents in their Mercedes' and survived unscathed. These were little harmless traffic to dangerous Autobahn accidents. The letters basically said the same thing: "Thank you for your safe products." You can bet that if these guys were given the choice between a $ 50,000 C-Class or a $ 30,000 Hyundai, they'd take the C-Class hands down.
By the way, when I worked for a Benz dealer

[Autobahn]

Well apparently car thieves in Germany do not care about H&H. The most stolen car in Germany is the Lexus RX 400h.

So the only one they ever sold got stolen?

[CJ]

The Hyundai is just as safe, though. They both get top honors from the IIHS and NTSA. If you're a family on a budget, you're not going to get the $35,000 Mercedes that's smaller, less economical, and $10,000 more expensive. You get the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, or Hyundai Sonata. Why? They're reliable, just as safe, larger, and still well built. The Camry and Accord less so, but you get my point. These "intangibles" are things that the average American consumer doesn't seem to care about. We want good value for money, as well as a quality, practical product. That's why the Camry is the car to beat. Good value, well built in the past, and extremely reliable.

[mojammer]

Car and Driver has an article up about it:

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/11q4/2012_bmw_3-series_328i_335i_activehybrid_3_sedan-official_photos_and_info







More pictures at the link.

It's bigger, lighter, and faster than the previous car.  There's a hybrid, and no N/A engine options anymore.  6-speed auto replaced with 8-speed.

[cawimmer430]

So the only one they ever sold got stolen?

Come on Ralph, be nice. They sold four in Germany.

[cawimmer430]

The Hyundai is just as safe, though. They both get top honors from the IIHS and NTSA. If you're a family on a budget, you're not going to get the $35,000 Mercedes that's smaller, less economical, and $10,000 more expensive. You get the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, or Hyundai Sonata. Why? They're reliable, just as safe, larger, and still well built. The Camry and Accord less so, but you get my point. These "intangibles" are things that the average American consumer doesn't seem to care about. We want good value for money, as well as a quality, practical product. That's why the Camry is the car to beat. Good value, well built in the past, and extremely reliable.

When you're buying a luxury car, "value" really should not be an issue.

All these expensive luxury cars sell despite being crap value compared to other cars that also compete in the same class.

[Tave]

A Lexus and a Mercedes are both expensive luxury items, that's not the point.

Even luxury car owners would like to get as much luxury out of their money as they can. If one marque can offer a competitive option for a lower price, why not go that route?

[Vinsanity]

meh, it's the current 3-series with a pedestrian-friendly Euro-bumper. No es bonita.

[Autobahn]

The Hyundai is just as safe, though. They both get top honors from the IIHS and NTSA. If you're a family on a budget, you're not going to get the $35,000 Mercedes that's smaller, less economical, and $10,000 more expensive. You get the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, or Hyundai Sonata. Why? They're reliable, just as safe, larger, and still well built. The Camry and Accord less so, but you get my point. These "intangibles" are things that the average American consumer doesn't seem to care about. We want good value for money, as well as a quality, practical product. That's why the Camry is the car to beat. Good value, well built in the past, and extremely reliable.

So basically you say that families on a budget get a car they can afford - wow big news! Obviously a lot of people do not care about intangible qualities - they buy the normal cars. Fine. Others care, or just need a Penis extension or have any other reason why they don't like the normal cars, so they buy the premium brands. Fine too. Where is the problem? Why do you say "we"? Apparently a lot of your fellow Americans disagree - otherwise they wouldn't buy 3ers and C-Classes.

[Raza]

When you're buying a luxury car, "value" really should not be an issue.

All these expensive luxury cars sell despite being crap value compared to other cars that also compete in the same class.

When will you people start listening to me?  I'm the smartest fucker in here (in these matters).

Yes.

Value is the number 1 criteria of every purchase ever made in the history ever anywhere in this world or any other.  How people determine value is what differs. 

VALUE is considered in EVERY purchase, action, inaction, or sale EVER in the history of man.  EVERYTHING is decided by a person's cost/benefit analysis.  However, it is a personal decision as to what costs are worth what benefits. 

[Autobahn]

A Lexus and a Mercedes are both expensive luxury items, that's not the point.

Even luxury car owners would like to get as much luxury out of their money as they can. If one marque can offer a competitive option for a lower price, why not go that route?

Well, everyone buys the most competitive option (at least in free markets and when being in a situation where you are free to choose). It's just that different people regard different cars at the "most competitive option". For some its the C-Class, for some it's the Sonata, for some it's a Passat and for some it's a Camry. Who is right. Thank god different people have different tastes, otherwise we would all be driving Trabants or Dacia Logans.

[Autobahn]

When will you people start listening to me?  I'm the smartest fucker in here (in these matters).

VALUE is considered in EVERY purchase, action, inaction, or sale EVER in the history of man.  EVERYTHING is decided by a person's cost/benefit analysis.  However, it is a personal decision as to what costs are worth what benefits. 

+1

[MexicoCityM3]

It's bigger, lighter, and faster than the previous car.  There's a hybrid, and no N/A engine options anymore.  6-speed auto replaced with 8-speed.

Possibly the best news to come from BMW in a long time. Just as I predicted based on the weights of the new 1.

[Galaxy]

So the only one they ever sold got stolen?

Yeah it is odd how 21.2/1000 cars get stolen when they only sold like 300.

[2o6]

I am already bored by the styling.



I miss bangle.

[sportyaccordy]

The interior is marvelous.

Still lamenting the death of NA.

Oh well. On a good note, whack another $2K or so off used E90s

[Colonel Cadillac]

Wow, the I4 will get it to 60 in 5.7 seconds.

[CJ]

So basically you say that families on a budget get a car they can afford - wow big news!

This is something Wimmer fails to understand.

[sportyaccordy]

Good God when it comes to cars Wimmer is just not that sharp

[2o6]

I fail to see the hype....the car looks about the same as the old one, but with a new front fascia.

[cawimmer430]

This is something Wimmer fails to understand.

So basically you say that families on a budget get a car they can afford - wow big news!


Here's some reality for you:

There are some people who buy cars which they can't afford to maintain or run. These people shouldn't even be shopping in a higher class of automobile if they can't even afford to pay their two ex-wives alimony and child support. 

[cawimmer430]

Good God when it comes to cars Wimmer is just not that sharp

[omicron]

What on earth are those ridiculous chromed protrusions either side of the grille, and sprouting out of the headlights?

Get rid of them immediately.



Better.

[sportyaccordy]

In the discussions about why people buy cars you've

- expressed xenophobic + anti-Japanese sentiments
- blamed owners for the reliability shortcomings and flawed designs of manufacturers
- called people who complain about their cars not working "poor" or "unable to afford their cars"
- outright shitted on poor people
- displayed hypocrisy in standing behind your reasons for picking cars (style, H&H) while shitting on other people's (reliability, value) despite the fact that by any measure the latter group of reasons is more logical
- trolled the board w/painfully unfunny anti-Toyota humor

You're a net negative in these discussions... you have absolutely no logic in your arguments or narrative... and at times you are annoying as hell. Really think about what you say and how others may interpret it, if you want to be taken seriously.