The next 3.....

[Colonel Cadillac]

Cause they're dumb and like to waste money?

No but seriously there is a huge difference in the level of craftsmanship etc between a Seiko and a Rolex. Not so much between a Bimmer and an Infiniti.

I would buy a 911 over a Cayman S/R any day of the week. But aside from looks/"cool factor" the Cayman is the better car by nearly any metric. Your personal preferences that happen to favor German cars don't make them objectively better.

That's just it. H&H cannot be objectively measured. As Wimmer said:

It's all in the name and image. HISTORY & HERITAGE.

The German luxury manufacturers have a great deal of brand equity that's worth a premium, which is part of the reason why they charge a premium. It's like comparing a Ralph Lauren polo shirt to a regular brand polo shirt. They're both made in China (or equivalent) and one will most likely not outlast the other, but that little pony and polo player on the Ralph Lauren shirt allows RL to charge considerably more for essentially the same product.

[Raza]

Really?

Why are people willing to pay so much money for a Rolex and a Seiko costs much less and does the same thing: tell time.

It's all in the name and image. HISTORY & HERITAGE.

That's not the greatest analogy.  Seiko has as long and storied a history as Rolex, as well as having watches that cost several thousand dollars more than Rolexes. 

[Raza]

That's just it. H&H cannot be objectively measured. As Wimmer said:


The German luxury manufacturers have a great deal of brand equity that's worth a premium, which is part of the reason why they charge a premium. It's like comparing a Ralph Lauren polo shirt to a regular brand polo shirt. They're both made in China (or equivalent) and one will most likely not outlast the other, but that little pony and polo player on the Ralph Lauren shirt allows RL to charge considerably more for essentially the same product.

Also not a great analogy.  With clothes, just like most things in life, you get what you pay for in the end.  Take shoes, for example.  

One thing to remember though, is that the law of diminishing returns still applies.

[sportyaccordy]

I'd say luxury buyers in the US are far more sophisticated and many will note and want the advantages of the new 4-cylinder 528i compared to the 6-cylinder it replaces.

Funny that you give Americans so much credit now. FWIW here are some snapshots of the average American luxury car buyer




Like you all these people care about is image & branding. Luxury cars could be coal powered for all they care. But for the select few who liked and when the opportunity bought BMWs because of their commitment to driving, milestones like this are not good ones.

[sportyaccordy]

The German luxury manufacturers have a great deal of brand equity that's worth a premium, which is part of the reason why they charge a premium. It's like comparing a Ralph Lauren polo shirt to a regular brand polo shirt. They're both made in China (or equivalent) and one will most likely not outlast the other, but that little pony and polo player on the Ralph Lauren shirt allows RL to charge considerably more for essentially the same product.

I get it. It's still retarded though.

I mean to some degree I get why people buy luxury cars. Though to a degree even that is stupid. And I get that some people are irrationally loyal or disloyal to certain brands. Which is also stupid. But where Wim goes to far is in trying to rationalize it- esp in cases where H&H pushes people to buy inferior or overpriced products. And of course he never gives the same benefit of the doubt to brands he despises. The whole thing is ridiculous.

[Raza]

Funny that you give Americans so much credit now. FWIW here are some snapshots of the average American luxury car buyer

Like you all these people care about is image & branding. Luxury cars could be coal powered for all they care. But for the select few who liked and when the opportunity bought BMWs because of their commitment to driving, milestones like this are not good ones.

1.  People on TV are nowhere near average anything. 

2.  From your own thread:
"The Volkswagen sounds way better, though -- somehow, this Z4 sounds lazy and a bit trucky, like it's been hanging out with a Viper V10 too much. Shame about that part. Indeed, it might be the sole trait in which BMW's erstwhile straight six holds an edge over the new turbo four."

[cawimmer430]

Cause they're dumb and like to waste money?

No but seriously there is a huge difference in the level of craftsmanship etc between a Seiko and a Rolex. Not so much between a Bimmer and an Infiniti.

I would buy a 911 over a Cayman S/R any day of the week. But aside from looks/"cool factor" the Cayman is the better car by nearly any metric. Your personal preferences that happen to favor German cars don't make them objectively better.

Hast it ever occurred to you that people simply LIKE a particular brand or something that a particular brand gives them (whether tangible or intangible)?

And because of that they're willing to pay the price.

People buy expensive status symbol products all the time for many reasons. In fact the reasons are limitless. They like the status it gives them, they like the brand, the like the design, they know of a certain reputation that the brand has (safety, quality etc.), they've had good experiences with them in the past, their family has always owned _____, they want to outdo their neighbor who bought a ______ etc. etc. etc.


When my dad bought our ex-2002 Mercedes E320 for example, he cited safety, interior space and comfort as his top reasons for buying it. A nice family car cruiser. Those are attributes which Mercedes stands for. The fact that it was a Mercedes was an extra bonus - brand prestige, quality etc.

[cawimmer430]

Funny that you give Americans so much credit now. FWIW here are some snapshots of the average American luxury car buyer

Please post the more recent pictures of Kevin Federline where he is a fat blob. 

Like you all these people care about is image & branding. Luxury cars could be coal powered for all they care. But for the select few who liked and when the opportunity bought BMWs because of their commitment to driving, milestones like this are not good ones.

Expensive products / status symbols will always attract people who want to "show off". Nothing can be done about that.

Many others buy a luxury car because they want to experience the "I have made it in life" feeling or because they generally like the brand. There are so many reasons why people buy luxury cars, overpriced and value models. It simply cannot be summed up on an Internet forum. Everyone buys these cars for different reasons.

[cawimmer430]

LOLOLOLOL.  Most BMW drivers think their car has a V6.  I seriously doubt buyers of this car will care enough.

Most buyers DON'T CARE about the specifics. They care about the badge.

80% of 1-Series owners here thought their car was FWD. What does that say? 95% of BMW 1-Series owners aren't enthusiasts. 15% of them aren't enthusiasts but at least know some basic facts about their cars. 5% are enthusiasts.

^Generalization^

[Vinsanity]

Most buyers DON'T CARE about the specifics. They care about the badge.

80% of 1-Series owners here thought their car was FWD. What does that say? 95% of BMW 1-Series owners aren't enthusiasts. 15% of them aren't enthusiasts but at least know some basic facts about their cars. 5% are enthusiasts.

^Generalization^

You left out the possibility that maybe some of them are just ill-informed enthusiasts. That probably represents a sizable chunk.

[cawimmer430]

You left out the possibility that maybe some of them are just ill-informed enthusiasts. That probably represents a sizable chunk.

Ill-informed in what way?

The impression I am getting is that Americans buy their cars based on VALUE and VALUE alone. Nothing else seems to matter. 

"I really like car A, but $ 12,001 is to expensive. Car B on the other hand is great value, only costs $ 12,000!"

[Raza]

Ill-informed in what way?

The impression I am getting is that Americans buy their cars based on VALUE and VALUE alone. Nothing else seems to matter. 

"I really like car A, but $ 12,001 is to expensive. Car B on the other hand is great value, only costs $ 12,000!"

Yes.

Value is the number 1 criteria of every purchase ever made in the history ever anywhere in this world or any other.  How people determine value is what differs. 

[CALL_911]

Ill-informed in what way?

The impression I am getting is that Americans buy their cars based on VALUE and VALUE alone. Nothing else seems to matter. 

"I really like car A, but $ 12,001 is to expensive. Car B on the other hand is great value, only costs $ 12,000!"

Reason #293892389 why we>you

[cawimmer430]

Reason #293892389 why we>you

You know, if you're so concerned with value then maybe you should get rid of that Porsche 997 GT3 RS in your signature and replace it with a used 1995 Honda Civic DX VTEC Type-R Powered by Mugen. Same performance, but the Honda is much better value. I'm amazed a smart guy like you didn't realize that.

[MX793]

Ill-informed in what way?

The impression I am getting is that Americans buy their cars based on VALUE and VALUE alone. Nothing else seems to matter. 

"I really like car A, but $ 12,001 is to expensive. Car B on the other hand is great value, only costs $ 12,000!"

Americans don't buy solely on price, but they also don't necessarily ignore value.  Somebody shopping for a luxury/premium car isn't going to buy a $12,000 Kia over a BMW, Mercedes or Lexus just because it's cheaper.  However, they are likely to favor a BMW over a Mercedes, or a Lexus over both, if they perceive that they will get the same amount of car for considerably less money, or considerably more car for the same.  For a hundred dollar's difference, people are just going to buy the car they like better, but if given the choice between a BMW that costs $75,000 or a similarly equipped Mercedes that perhaps costs $68,000, your typical American is likely to be pulled strongly towards the Merc.

[Laconian]

Remember that statistic about the number of BMW 3-series and 5-series drivers that don't even buy their cars? It was something like 80%. 80% of 3-series owners in Germany do not buy their cars. If the company is picking up the tab, then of course German luxury buyers don't care about value.

[cawimmer430]

Americans don't buy solely on price, but they also don't necessarily ignore value.  Somebody shopping for a luxury/premium car isn't going to buy a $12,000 Kia over a BMW, Mercedes or Lexus just because it's cheaper.  However, they are likely to favor a BMW over a Mercedes, or a Lexus over both, if they perceive that they will get the same amount of car for considerably less money, or considerably more car for the same.  For a hundred dollar's difference, people are just going to buy the car they like better, but if given the choice between a BMW that costs $75,000 or a similarly equipped Mercedes that perhaps costs $68,000, your typical American is likely to be pulled strongly towards the Merc.

That's just so calculated and..."cold"...if I can describe it that way.

Here most people simply go into a showroom with the intention of buying a car from a certain brand, even if it costs a bit more than a competitor.

[cawimmer430]

Remember that statistic about the number of BMW 3-series and 5-series drivers that don't even buy their cars? It was something like 80%. 80% of 3-series owners in Germany do not buy their cars. If the company is picking up the tab, then of course German luxury buyers don't care about value.

Company cars are generally lower-end models and those account for roughly 50% of private and company car sales. Few businesses will specify 335i's as company cars for instance.

[Galaxy]

Company cars are generally lower-end models and those account for roughly 50% of private and company car sales. Few businesses will specify 335i's as company cars for instance.

Actually I would say that company cars are generally optioned quite well, when it comes to Audi, BMW, and Mercedes. Look at the amount of used three year old A6 3.0 TDIs available, those are almost all lease returns.   The 335i might be an exception, since most businesses would go for the 330d.  Almost all M, AMG, RS cars are commercial, driven by lawyers, Doctors etc, who register the cars with their business.

[Vinsanity]

That's just so calculated and..."cold"...if I can describe it that way.

Here most people simply go into a showroom with the intention of buying a car from a certain brand, even if it costs a bit more than a competitor.

see, and to most buyers here, that just seems so uninformed.

I guess the reason they carmakers can't get away with that here is because the big 3 ruined that type of buying mentality with those awful 1970's travesties that you love.

[Laconian]

Actually I would say that company cars are generally optioned quite well, when it comes to Audi, BMW, and Mercedes. Look at the amount of used three year old A6 3.0 TDIs available, those are almost all lease returns.   The 335i might be an exception, since most businesses would go for the 330d.  Almost all M, AMG, RS cars are commercial, driven by lawyers, Doctors etc, who register the cars with their business.

If that's the case, then the downmarket models are probably for the poor saps that buy them out of pocket - since they are motivated by value for dollar.

[WookieOnRitalin]

The 3 is honestly one of the best vehicles on the market and I honestly doubt that BMW will manage to slight enthusiasts and consumers alike with its makeover. It's one of the most brilliant looking cars and it's one of the best sized. As long as BMW does not make it into a bloat machine, then it will be a great, great car no matter what powers it. Honestly, as long as it's a BMW and has a 3 on it, it will sell like crazy. No one else in the segment can really do it better than BMW.

[MexicoCityM3]

Actually I would say that company cars are generally optioned quite well, when it comes to Audi, BMW, and Mercedes. Look at the amount of used three year old A6 3.0 TDIs available, those are almost all lease returns.   The 335i might be an exception, since most businesses would go for the 330d.  Almost all M, AMG, RS cars are commercial, driven by lawyers, Doctors etc, who register the cars with their business.

I think Europe & the US are totally different in this regard. Something like 90% of 5 series sold in the UK are base 520d for example, and most of those are company cars.

[MexicoCityM3]

The 3 is honestly one of the best vehicles on the market and I honestly doubt that BMW will manage to slight enthusiasts and consumers alike with its makeover. It's one of the most brilliant looking cars and it's one of the best sized. As long as BMW does not make it into a bloat machine, then it will be a great, great car no matter what powers it. Honestly, as long as it's a BMW and has a 3 on it, it will sell like crazy. No one else in the segment can really do it better than BMW.

Hopefully, amen. We'll know soon.

[850CSi]

WHY ARE PEOPLE COMPLAINING?  

Because some people don't like forced induction.



One of the main reasons I ended up with my car instead of an A4 was that it was no competition when it came to 2.0T I4 vs 3.0 I6.

[CJ]

Because some people don't like forced induction.



One of the main reasons I ended up with my car instead of an A4 was that it was no competition when it came to 2.0T I4 vs 3.0 I6.

It's my power and I need it now!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3cu5f1GLqY

[850CSi]

I don't like turbos and I have yet to drive a car that can convince me otherwise. I wouldn't buy a 4-cylinder BMW unless it was a diesel.

[Raza]

I don't like turbos and I have yet to drive a car that can convince me otherwise. I wouldn't buy a 4-cylinder BMW unless it was a diesel.

What don't you like about turbos?  Is it that they're so much better than your archaic inline 6?

[sportyaccordy]

That's just so calculated and..."cold"...if I can describe it that way.

Here most people simply go into a showroom with the intention of buying a car from a certain brand, even if it costs a bit more than a competitor.

Somehow I doubt this

And if it's true it doesn't bode well for your market. I.e. you guys will buy total turds as long as they have the right emblem

Its silly

Re: the new 3, we will see.

[AltinD]

Sporty, you're really becoming a joke with your drivels