Wimmer's next car update!

[Eye of the Tiger]

[Vinsanity]

[CALL_911]

[Raza]

I love the Citroen C5 and Skoda Superb equally. But since my parking space is to small for a Superb, a C5 would be better suited (or an Octavia/Passat). Right now I am leaning towards the Skoda Octavia/Passat but the C5 is definitely a candidate.


Another cool car I really wanted to check out was the Alfa Romeo 159 Sportwagon. Sexy styling but the trunk is kind of small because the car sacrifices a lot for styling. It's just not as roomy and practical overall like the cars ^above^.

Damn son, that is sexy as hell.

[Laconian]

ROFL

No fear of socialneid with that one..

[cawimmer430]

Wimmer, whenever someone expresses interest in a Lexus over a Benz, or even makes the comparison, you get your feathers all ruffled about museums and all other H&H nonsense. What you're basically doing is the equivalent- choosing a car for practical reasons over emotional ones. Just as there are practical reasons for choosing a Skoda over a Benz or Alfa, there are practical reasons for choosing a Lexus over a Merc. Hell, I wouldn't even call sozialneid a practical reason- it's the worst reason you could justify, IMHO. But yes, people can do whatever they want with their money, but after all your ranting about H&H, don't be surprised that it comes back around to you.

I never threw a fit about someone picking a Lexus over a Mercedes.

I get annoyed when someone considers Lexus to be as "prestigious" as a BMW or Mercedes because I just don't see that prestige in a brand that has no comparable history to many established European luxury or even mainstream brands. Maybe that's because here in Europe a luxury brand needs some credibility and credibility is gained through a strong presence in history with various achievements. Lexus is not doing well here, Infiniti isn't doing well here and Acura and Hyundai don't even bother.

[cawimmer430]

Come on. SUVs are for pussies. I'd rather have this. 

[ifcar]

I never threw a fit about someone picking a Lexus over a Mercedes.

I get annoyed when someone considers Lexus to be as "prestigious" as a BMW or Mercedes because I just don't see that prestige in a brand that has no comparable history to many established European luxury or even mainstream brands. Maybe that's because here in Europe a luxury brand needs some credibility and credibility is gained through a strong presence in history with various achievements. Lexus is not doing well here, Infiniti isn't doing well here and Acura and Hyundai don't even bother.

Lexus and Infiniti aren't following Mercedes is offering stripped-down non-luxury models, because they have Toyota and Nissan for that. That's why their volumes are lower than Mercedes or BMW.

[MX793]

I never threw a fit about someone picking a Lexus over a Mercedes.

I get annoyed when someone considers Lexus to be as "prestigious" as a BMW or Mercedes because I just don't see that prestige in a brand that has no comparable history to many established European luxury or even mainstream brands. Maybe that's because here in Europe a luxury brand needs some credibility and credibility is gained through a strong presence in history with various achievements. Lexus is not doing well here, Infiniti isn't doing well here and Acura and Hyundai don't even bother.

At exactly what point did Rolls Royce, BMW or Mercedes achieve the necessary history to be considered "prestigious"?

[sportyaccordy]

Lol this guy never quits.

[cawimmer430]

Lexus and Infiniti aren't following Mercedes is offering stripped-down non-luxury models, because they have Toyota and Nissan for that. That's why their volumes are lower than Mercedes or BMW.

Follow the history of Mercedes. They offered luxury cars and cars for the common man since the very beginnings. The car market back then was completely different. Brands were starting out, they had to make money, they had to experiment and test the markets. In fact many European brands offered economy and luxury cars under one brand name. It's not a big deal here.

Citroen offered the economy 2CV, Dyane, Ami6 while at the same time offering the luxurious DS, SM and later the GS/CX. Fiat had various economy cars and also offered top-end luxury cars like the Fiat 130 Coupe and 130 Sedan. BMW Isetta at the bottom and BMW 502/503 at the top. Mercedes 170V/170S/170D down low and Mercedes 300 Adenauer up high. The list is endless.

Lexus and Infiniti were created specifically for the US. Toyota and Nissan had the funds to create a brand out of scratch (and they probably had to since nobody would pay for an overpriced Toyota/Nissan premium car) and define them as a "luxury" brand with lots of features. Still doesn't make them luxury or remotely interesting brands to me. To me they are overpriced Toyotas and Nissans with lots features designed to appeal to American buyers. Even Hyundai can offer a luxury car there in and it will sell. That would never work here. Hyundai can't even sell their Sonata sedan here, much less the Grandeur (Azera).

[cawimmer430]

At exactly what point did Rolls Royce, BMW or Mercedes achieve the necessary history to be considered "prestigious"?

What makes those brands prestigious is their history. Their achievements, their technical and safety developments, their motorsport heritage and the technology developed during motorsport participation as well as the various classic cars from them that are still around and highly sought after. There's much more but you get the point (hopefully).

People aspire to own these brands here. They stand for something. We know they're prestigious and swirl emotions in people.

The simplest way to say this is as follows: BMW, Mercedes and Rolls Royce have MUSEUMS displaying their long and prestigious and exciting history. Lexus, Infiniti and Acura don't. I've said it before but in Europe a luxury brand needs credentials. Lexus, Infiniti etc. don't have that and they don't build cars that appeal to Europeans. They also refuse to adapt to local market needs (no wagons, no diesels etc.).

[ifcar]

Follow the history of Mercedes. They offered luxury cars and cars for the common man since the very beginnings. The car market back then was completely different. Brands were starting out, they had to make money, they had to experiment and test the markets. In fact many European brands offered economy and luxury cars under one brand name. It's not a big deal here.

Yes, it gets you higher sales volume, which is all you've been able to point to as evidence. Obviously if you create a stripped down base model and sell a lot of them, that improves your sales compared to a brand that only sells high-end models, but is that supposed to be evidence of a more successful luxury brand?

Citroen offered the economy 2CV, Dyane, Ami6 while at the same time offering the luxurious DS, SM and later the GS/CX. Fiat had various economy cars and also offered top-end luxury cars like the Fiat 130 Coupe and 130 Sedan. BMW Isetta at the bottom and BMW 502/503 at the top. Mercedes 170V/170S/170D down low and Mercedes 300 Adenauer up high. The list is endless.

Yes, Toyota and Nissan do that in Japan. Just pretend that's what you're getting, except with fancier dealers, and boom -- there's your H&H.

[MX793]

What makes those brands prestigious is their history. Their achievements, their technical and safety developments, their motorsport heritage and the technology developed during motorsport participation as well as the various classic cars from them that are still around and highly sought after. There's much more but you get the point (hopefully).

People aspire to own these brands here. They stand for something. We know they're prestigious and swirl emotions in people.

The simplest way to say this is as follows: BMW, Mercedes and Rolls Royce have MUSEUMS displaying their long and prestigious and exciting history. Lexus, Infiniti and Acura don't. I've said it before but in Europe a luxury brand needs credentials. Lexus, Infiniti etc. don't have that and they don't build cars that appeal to Europeans. They also refuse to adapt to local market needs (no wagons, no diesels etc.).

You didn't answer my question.  After how many years of existence did any of these brands achieve sufficient "history" to be considered "prestigious"?  Was Rolls-Royce considered prestigious right out of the gate?  Did it take them 10 years?  15?

For that matter, please name ONE major motorsport achievement (LeMans victory, racing championship, anything) of Rolls-Royce or one major automotive technological development that can be attributed to them.

[MX793]

Follow the history of Mercedes. They offered luxury cars and cars for the common man since the very beginnings. The car market back then was completely different. Brands were starting out, they had to make money, they had to experiment and test the markets. In fact many European brands offered economy and luxury cars under one brand name. It's not a big deal here.

Citroen offered the economy 2CV, Dyane, Ami6 while at the same time offering the luxurious DS, SM and later the GS/CX. Fiat had various economy cars and also offered top-end luxury cars like the Fiat 130 Coupe and 130 Sedan. BMW Isetta at the bottom and BMW 502/503 at the top. Mercedes 170V/170S/170D down low and Mercedes 300 Adenauer up high. The list is endless.

Lexus and Infiniti were created specifically for the US. Toyota and Nissan had the funds to create a brand out of scratch (and they probably had to since nobody would pay for an overpriced Toyota/Nissan premium car) and define them as a "luxury" brand with lots of features. Still doesn't make them luxury or remotely interesting brands to me. To me they are overpriced Toyotas and Nissans with lots features designed to appeal to American buyers. Even Hyundai can offer a luxury car there in and it will sell. That would never work here. Hyundai can't even sell their Sonata sedan here, much less the Grandeur (Azera).

Which is more of a "luxury brand":  The brand that only builds luxury cars or the brand that builds cars for nearly every segment?

[GoCougs]

Does anyone catch the H&H irony that pretty much all automakers today use the Toyota Production System, and that otherwise without Toyota BMW, M-B, Audi, etc., could not make the cars they build today?

[Rupert]

Wimmer fail.

[AltinD]

Lexus and Infiniti aren't following Mercedes is offering stripped-down non-luxury models, because they have Toyota and Nissan for that. That's why their volumes are lower than Mercedes or BMW.

Yes, they just rebadge economy cars as luxury ones (at least in the near past)

[sportyaccordy]

What makes those brands prestigious is their history. Their achievements, their technical and safety developments, their motorsport heritage and the technology developed during motorsport participation as well as the various classic cars from them that are still around and highly sought after. There's much more but you get the point (hopefully).

People aspire to own these brands here. They stand for something. We know they're prestigious and swirl emotions in people.

The simplest way to say this is as follows: BMW, Mercedes and Rolls Royce have MUSEUMS displaying their long and prestigious and exciting history. Lexus, Infiniti and Acura don't. I've said it before but in Europe a luxury brand needs credentials. Lexus, Infiniti etc. don't have that and they don't build cars that appeal to Europeans. They also refuse to adapt to local market needs (no wagons, no diesels etc.).

Honda, Toyota & Nissan, IIRC, all have museums too.

What are the credentials needed for a luxury brand to succeed in Europe? It seems like the only requirement you have as that they are not Japanese.

[Rupert]

Yes, they just rebadge economy cars as luxury ones (at least in the near past)

MB and BMW don't even bother rebadging them.

[cawimmer430]

Yes, it gets you higher sales volume, which is all you've been able to point to as evidence. Obviously if you create a stripped down base model and sell a lot of them, that improves your sales compared to a brand that only sells high-end models, but is that supposed to be evidence of a more successful luxury brand?

Lexus sold 20 GS cars in Germany from January to September this year. 20 GS cars! Is pathetic even a word to describe this fact? That's fucking embarrassing.

How many fully loaded E-Classes and 5ers do you think Mercedes and BMW sold in that same time frame? More than 20? More than 100? More than a 1,000? More than 2,000? More than 5,000? More than 10,000? Mercedes sold 12,306 E-Classes from July 2011 to September 2011 alone. You can bet that a substantial number of those (I am estimating 5,000+) were nicely spec'd.

Click this link and scroll through the different months to see the best-selling cars in Germany: http://www.kfz-auskunft.de/kfz/zulassungen.html

There's no Lexus in the top 100 ANYWHERE.

Fully loaded? That doesn't impress most people here. The way we see it, "more useless shit, more weight and a higher fuel consumption". Most people I know prefer to option out their cars with the stuff they need and want. The same rule applies to luxury cars.

[cawimmer430]

You didn't answer my question.  After how many years of existence did any of these brands achieve sufficient "history" to be considered "prestigious"?  Was Rolls-Royce considered prestigious right out of the gate?  Did it take them 10 years?  15?

Most automotive historians consider the "Golden Age of the Automobile" to have occurred from the late 19th century to the 1930s. Take a guess which brands were part of that and actually produced some stunning cars both in terms of design, technology, innovation and motorsports. It was during this time that these brands were already attaining their reputations etc.

Hint: Those overpriced Toyotas were nowhere to be seen at the time.

For that matter, please name ONE major motorsport achievement (LeMans victory, racing championship, anything) of Rolls-Royce or one major automotive technological development that can be attributed to them.

Rolls Royce participated in major endurance races on the British isles and on continental Europe in the 1910s and 1920s as well as some minor motorsport events in Britain to showcase their prowess.

I'm surprised you've also not heard of the famous Campbell Bluebird car that was designed to attain the highest speeds possible on land in the mid 1930s. It was powered by a Rolls Royce engine.

[93JC]

Well, Wimmer's going back on the ol' ignore list...

[dazzleman]

You're going to be driving around with models?



You know you want to. You don't stop talking about it. Time to do it.

I LOVE that car, man.  Beautiful.

[dazzleman]

Well, Wimmer's going back on the ol' ignore list...

Aren't you taking this way too seriously?

[Rupert]

Most automotive historians consider the "Golden Age of the Automobile" to have occurred from the late 19th century to the 1930s. Take a guess which brands were part of that and actually produced some stunning cars both in terms of design, technology, innovation and motorsports. It was during this time that these brands were already attaining their reputations etc.

Hint: Those overpriced Toyotas were nowhere to be seen at the time.



Rolls Royce participated in major endurance races on the British isles and on continental Europe in the 1910s and 1920s as well as some minor motorsport events in Britain to showcase their prowess.

I'm surprised you've also not heard of the famous Campbell Bluebird car that was designed to attain the highest speeds possible on land in the mid 1930s. It was powered by a Rolls Royce engine.

So no brand that didn't exist in 1930 can ever possibly be a luxury brand? Come on!

[93JC]

Aren't you taking this way too seriously?

No. If I wanted to take it too seriously I'd start arguing with him. This is just a simple matter of filtering out dumb posts. They're not worth reading anymore.

[MX793]

Most automotive historians consider the "Golden Age of the Automobile" to have occurred from the late 19th century to the 1930s. Take a guess which brands were part of that and actually produced some stunning cars both in terms of design, technology, innovation and motorsports. It was during this time that these brands were already attaining their reputations etc.

Hint: Those overpriced Toyotas were nowhere to be seen at the time.

No doubt that was the golden age of autos.  Now name me one specific technological innovation that can be attributed to Rolls?  Hint:  Rolls has never been known for automotive innovation.  In fact, their entire reputation was not about being on the cutting edge, but rather for making very reliable, well-built cars.  Pretty much what Lexus does.

Rolls Royce participated in major endurance races on the British isles and on continental Europe in the 1910s and 1920s as well as some minor motorsport events in Britain to showcase their prowess.

Name one.  Name one major victory or championship.  Why when I search "Rolls Royce racing history" do I get no specific hits?  No Grand Prix championships (or victories, for that matter).  No touring car titles.  No LeMans victories.  No Mille Miglia victories.  No Carrera Panamericana victories.  No Targa Florio victories.  Rolls' own website mentions nothing of auto racing (save for the land speed records set by cars powered by RR aircraft engines).  Rolls doesn't brag about its racing heritage because it doesn't really have one.  They set some endurance records very early on (pre-1910, before C.S. Rolls was killed in a plane accident), and have done nothing since.  Certainly nothing in the Golden age of motorsport.  Lexus has 3 manufacturer's cup victories in the Rolex Sports car series and multiple JGTC titles.

I'm surprised you've also not heard of the famous Campbell Bluebird car that was designed to attain the highest speeds possible on land in the mid 1930s. It was powered by a Rolls Royce engine.

That car was powered by an aircraft engine.  Rolls didn't develop the car and didn't develop the engine specifically for the car.  Campbell bought a plane engine (likely from the British government) and dropped it into a car that was custom designed from the ground up.  Previous versions of the Bluebird used a Napier aircraft engine.  Rolls as a company had nothing to do with that speed record.

[MX793]

Fully loaded? That doesn't impress most people here. The way we see it, "more useless shit, more weight and a higher fuel consumption". Most people I know prefer to option out their cars with the stuff they need and want. The same rule applies to luxury cars.

Doesn't matter what brand it's from:

Luxury Car - Luxury = Car

[sportyaccordy]

Lol