Steering Feel

Started by 2o6, October 23, 2011, 07:09:02 PM

hotrodalex

A good front end alignment does wonders for steering as well.

2o6

Bad steering can be the bane and ruin a good car. If a steering is overassisted, too vague, ratio is too slow, etc, it can really ruin the accuracy of handling. Suspension geometry influences steering (obviously)



That's what I meant with this thread, really. I don't like my steering to be too sensitive to road imperfections, but if the setup is entirely wrong then it can ruin a car. The MK1 Focus had an excellent combination of heft, accuracy, and overall goodness.


BMW's generally have good steering even at their worst. When you've driven a 2002 Camry and the steering is far too overboosted and the ratio itself is too slow, it makes things harder to determine WTF the car is doing when the car gets going faster.

2o6

Quote from: MrH on August 19, 2014, 07:38:37 AM
I think steering feel is just a catch all phrase people use to describe a lot of handling characteristics.

I think steering accuracy, and turn in immediacy are much, much more important to me.  In that area, nothing really touches the BRZ still.  There is basically no delay from when you start turning the wheel, to when the vehicle begins to move.

I've driven plenty of older cars with a lot of "steering feel", but you yank the wheel, and it seems like the car takes forever to roll, set, and then begin turning in.

The FRS did have good steering, but I liked the MK1 Focus just a bit more (it's a little easier to drive it like a regular car, etc parking lots and shit)

MrH

Quote from: 2o6 on August 19, 2014, 09:11:08 PM
The FRS did have good steering, but I liked the MK1 Focus just a bit more (it's a little easier to drive it like a regular car, etc parking lots and shit)
Well, mine isn't exactly stock anymore. Mine is a pretty drastic difference from stock honestly.
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hotrodalex

Lowered + wider wheels, anything else?

MexicoCityM3

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 19, 2014, 01:40:48 PM
Lol

Im not surprised by Cougs not caring but MCM3? Maybe you get to drive so many cars with good steering feel you take it for granted.

But yea, for folks who reach their cars' limits of traction with any level of regularity, steering feel is important. Maybe not to where you can feel every granule in the road, but at the minimum to where you get that rising level of resistance as you approach the limits of adhesion, and that release of tension once you cross it... that shit matters. That ties in with vehicle dynamics and steering accuracy in a big way... if you don't know how much grip you have, you don't know how hard you can push, or how the car will respond to further input. I'm gonna call shenanigans on steering feel not being important. Maybe you guys need to drive more cars with bad steering feel. Hopping out of my car or off my bike into my wife's car, I have no idea what's going on at the front wheels. There's no resistive weight and the tires just let go. I hate driving it.

I can feel a difference and prefer "better" steering. The F10 M5 for example does feel very disconnected.

I just feel that this specific characteristic has been widely overblown in a lot of the press recently. Particularly in C&D where it seems it's all they care about.

I also think that the car communicates in many ways when the limit approaches or you go beyond it. And I personally use my butt more than the steering itself.
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2o6

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on August 19, 2014, 10:10:14 PM
I can feel a difference and prefer "better" steering. The F10 M5 for example does feel very disconnected.

I just feel that this specific characteristic has been widely overblown in a lot of the press recently. Particularly in C&D where it seems it's all they care about.

I also think that the car communicates in many ways when the limit approaches or you go beyond it. And I personally use my butt more than the steering itself.


Some new systems in cars today are absolutely terrible. They're really bad, even in cars that are supposed to be sporty.



The new 3-series is a good example. The E90 had great steering (even if a bit too heavy and slow for my tastes). The latest car doesn't feel that different than a Toyota Corolla.

MexicoCityM3

Quote from: 2o6 on August 19, 2014, 10:12:30 PM

Some new systems in cars today are absolutely terrible. They're really bad, even in cars that are supposed to be sporty.



The new 3-series is a good example. The E90 had great steering (even if a bit too heavy and slow for my tastes). The latest car doesn't feel that different than a Toyota Corolla.

I don't know man, I have driven the new F30 a lot and find no great fault with it. I did drive an F30 335i at the track during a driving school last year (there is a post here somewhere about that) and didn't find it wanting. Even the ActiveHybrid 3 is ok IMO.

Haven't driven a Corolla though. And I hope I never do.

:)
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http://bmwclub.org.mx
'05 M3 E46 6SPD Mystic Blue
'08 M5 E60 SMG  Space Grey
'11 1M E82 6SPD Sapphire Black
'16 GT4 (1/3rd Share lol)
'18 M3 CS
'16 X5 5.0i (Wife)
'14 MINI Cooper Countryman S Automatic (For Sale)

12,000 RPM

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on August 19, 2014, 10:10:14 PM
I can feel a difference and prefer "better" steering. The F10 M5 for example does feel very disconnected.

I just feel that this specific characteristic has been widely overblown in a lot of the press recently. Particularly in C&D where it seems it's all they care about.

I also think that the car communicates in many ways when the limit approaches or you go beyond it. And I personally use my butt more than the steering itself.
Its the press' job to overblow everything :lol:

I also get the feeling C&D bashed an important new BMW for not having good steering feel :lol:

Anyways steering feel is one of those things like engine notes or throttle response. Does it really matter for everyday driving? No. But can it make a car much more enjoyable to drive? Fuck yes. Point blank, steering effort should be proportional to the lateral load on the tires.
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

MexicoCityM3

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 20, 2014, 06:02:34 AM
Its the press' job to overblow everything :lol:

I also get the feeling C&D bashed an important new BMW for not having good steering feel :lol:

Anyways steering feel is one of those things like engine notes or throttle response. Does it really matter for everyday driving? No. But can it make a car much more enjoyable to drive? Fuck yes. Point blank, steering effort should be proportional to the lateral load on the tires.

I´ll be driving the new M3/M4 on track soon, it seems BMW will have an experience event in a few weeks. I am looking forward to see how much I like it or not. Also, I hope it doesn't overheat at this altitude on track. That would be a bummer.

Founder, BMW Car Club de México
http://bmwclub.org.mx
'05 M3 E46 6SPD Mystic Blue
'08 M5 E60 SMG  Space Grey
'11 1M E82 6SPD Sapphire Black
'16 GT4 (1/3rd Share lol)
'18 M3 CS
'16 X5 5.0i (Wife)
'14 MINI Cooper Countryman S Automatic (For Sale)

68_427

Quote from: hotrodalex on August 19, 2014, 09:24:01 PM
Lowered + wider wheels, anything else?

Properly set up coil-overs/camber settings is a bit more than lowering.
Quotewhere were you when automotive dream died
i was sat at home drinking brake fluid when wife ring
'racecar is die'
no


Cookie Monster

Quote from: 68_427 on August 24, 2014, 02:40:06 PM
Properly set up coil-overs/camber settings is a bit more than lowering.

Lots of camber, no toe, max caster.

Bam winning alignment.
RWD > FWD
President of the "I survived the Volvo S80 Thread" Club
2007 Mazda MX-5 | 1999 Honda Nighthawk 750 | 1989 Volvo 240 | 1991 Toyota 4Runner | 2006 Honda CBR600F4i | 2015 Yamaha FJ-09 | 1999 Honda CBR600F4 | 2009 Yamaha WR250X | 1985 Mazda RX-7 | 2000 Yamaha YZ426F | 2006 Yamaha FZ1 | 2002 Honda CBR954RR | 1996 Subaru Outback | 2018 Subaru Crosstrek | 1986 Toyota MR2
Quote from: 68_427 on November 27, 2016, 07:43:14 AM
Or order from fortune auto and when lyft rider asks why your car feels bumpy you can show them the dyno curve
1 3 5
├┼┤
2 4 R

MrH

Quote from: thecarnut on August 24, 2014, 08:15:56 PM
Lots of camber, no toe, max caster.

Bam winning alignment.

:lol:  Not far off from what I'm running.  Ever so slight toe in in the front.

Adjustable lower control arms would be nice in the rear though.  I can't get much camber in the rear.  I'd like another degree.
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2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

68_427

You pussies aren't running toe out in the rear?
Quotewhere were you when automotive dream died
i was sat at home drinking brake fluid when wife ring
'racecar is die'
no


hotrodalex

Quote from: MrH on August 24, 2014, 08:22:47 PM
:lol:  Not far off from what I'm running.  Ever so slight toe in in the front.

Adjustable lower control arms would be nice in the rear though.  I can't get much camber in the rear.  I'd like another degree.

How much camber/caster?

hotrodalex

Quote from: 68_427 on August 24, 2014, 08:24:25 PM
You pussies aren't running toe out in the rear?

Lemme just go bend my axle.

Soup DeVille

Quote from: 68_427 on August 24, 2014, 08:24:25 PM
You pussies aren't running toe out in the rear?

If your solid axle is giving you toe out, you've got problems.
Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

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68_427

Quotewhere were you when automotive dream died
i was sat at home drinking brake fluid when wife ring
'racecar is die'
no


Soup DeVille

Maybe we need to start off small. I mean, they don't let you fuck the glumpers at Glumpees without a level 4 FuckPass, do they?

1975 Honda CB750, 1986 Rebel Rascal (sailing dinghy), 2015 Mini Cooper, 2020 Winnebago 31H (E450), 2021 Toyota 4Runner, 2022 Lincoln Aviator

Rupert

Novarolla-Miata-Trooper-Jeep-Volvo-Trooper-Ranger-MGB-Explorer-944-Fiat-Alfa-XTerra

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12,000 RPM

Quote from: MexicoCityM3 on August 20, 2014, 06:32:20 AM
I´ll be driving the new M3/M4 on track soon, it seems BMW will have an experience event in a few weeks. I am looking forward to see how much I like it or not. Also, I hope it doesn't overheat at this altitude on track. That would be a bummer.
Hmmm the overheating thing is a new one. Good point I never even considered. Def looking forward to your impressions; take pictures/vids if you can.
Quote from: 68_427 on August 24, 2014, 08:24:25 PM
You pussies aren't running toe out in the rear?
:lol:
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

MrH

#81
Quote from: hotrodalex on August 24, 2014, 08:33:02 PM
How much camber/caster?

2.8 degrees in the front or so I think

Rear is 1.6 on one side, and like 2.2 on the other.  I'd have to pull the sheets exactly.  Basically, the tolerances for bolting the sub frame to the vehicle aren't very tight from the factory.  I'd like to get some centering bushings to help get the sub frame aligned better, and then some adjustable control arms to get a little more camber in the rear.

Forget how much caster I have.  Much as I could get.

Ever so slight toe in on the front.
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2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

68_427

Quote from: Soup DeVille on August 24, 2014, 11:43:01 PM
An IRS El Camino?

Notice how I posted right after the posters with a NC Miata and BRZ
Quotewhere were you when automotive dream died
i was sat at home drinking brake fluid when wife ring
'racecar is die'
no


hotrodalex

2.8 lol need new tires yet?

MrH

Quote from: hotrodalex on August 25, 2014, 06:07:58 PM
2.8 lol need new tires yet?
Michelin pilot super sports are alien technology. They don't wear.

Also, I corner really hard often enough, it wears just fine :lol:
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2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

hotrodalex



Quote from: MrH on August 25, 2014, 06:14:59 PM
Also, I corner really hard often enough, it wears just fine :lol:

"Sorry officer I have to drift down the highway so my front tires don't wear!"

12,000 RPM

High camber is doable as long as your toe is skraight. I had Hondas in the -2 to -3 range with no wear problems

I'm gonna see if I can do without a camber kit when I go lo
Protecctor of the Atmospheric Engine #TheyLiedToUs

MrH

Quote from: 12,000 RPM on August 25, 2014, 06:25:38 PM
High camber is doable as long as your toe is skraight. I had Hondas in the -2 to -3 range with no wear problems

I'm gonna see if I can do without a camber kit when I go lo
Yeah. You can't run 3 degrees and a ton of toe in.

I'm running stock top mounts just fine. Pillow ball mounts with camber plates ride like shit for the most part. Not worth it for most daily drivers IMO.
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2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV

Cookie Monster

Quote from: MrH on August 25, 2014, 04:46:26 PM
2.8 degrees in the front or so I think

Rear is 1.6 on one side, and like 2.2 on the other.  I'd have to pull the sheets exactly.  Basically, the tolerances for bolting the sub frame to the vehicle aren't very tight from the factory.  I'd like to get some centering bushings to help get the sub frame aligned better, and then some adjustable control arms to get a little more camber in the rear.

Forget how much caster I have.  Much as I could get.

Ever so slight toe in on the front.

I'm at 2.7 degrees in the front, 2.4 in the back. The Miata can get crazy amounts of camber. I was apparently too low when I went to get my car aligned because the guy could only get 2.7 degrees minimum in the back. I raised it a tiny bit (gotta keep it looking nice, yo) and told him to min out the camber in the back, then added a bit more in the front. I've got 0 toe all around, as well, and even on my 200 treadwear RS3's I'm not seeing any wear problems. I also asked the guy to give me max caster, and he got the caster to like 9.5 degrees in the front. I couldn't turn my wheels lock to lock because the wheels would hit the fender liners. :lol:

I think I'm at around 7.5 degrees caster.

Also, with 2.8 degrees in the front and ~2 in the back you must get crazy oversteer when pushed, unless you've got no rear bar or soft rear spring rates compared to the front (although there are probably other factors I'm not taking into account).
RWD > FWD
President of the "I survived the Volvo S80 Thread" Club
2007 Mazda MX-5 | 1999 Honda Nighthawk 750 | 1989 Volvo 240 | 1991 Toyota 4Runner | 2006 Honda CBR600F4i | 2015 Yamaha FJ-09 | 1999 Honda CBR600F4 | 2009 Yamaha WR250X | 1985 Mazda RX-7 | 2000 Yamaha YZ426F | 2006 Yamaha FZ1 | 2002 Honda CBR954RR | 1996 Subaru Outback | 2018 Subaru Crosstrek | 1986 Toyota MR2
Quote from: 68_427 on November 27, 2016, 07:43:14 AM
Or order from fortune auto and when lyft rider asks why your car feels bumpy you can show them the dyno curve
1 3 5
├┼┤
2 4 R

MrH

Quote from: thecarnut on August 25, 2014, 08:22:46 PM
I'm at 2.7 degrees in the front, 2.4 in the back. The Miata can get crazy amounts of camber. I was apparently too low when I went to get my car aligned because the guy could only get 2.7 degrees minimum in the back. I raised it a tiny bit (gotta keep it looking nice, yo) and told him to min out the camber in the back, then added a bit more in the front. I've got 0 toe all around, as well, and even on my 200 treadwear RS3's I'm not seeing any wear problems. I also asked the guy to give me max caster, and he got the caster to like 9.5 degrees in the front. I couldn't turn my wheels lock to lock because the wheels would hit the fender liners. :lol:

I think I'm at around 7.5 degrees caster.

Also, with 2.8 degrees in the front and ~2 in the back you must get crazy oversteer when pushed, unless you've got no rear bar or soft rear spring rates compared to the front (although there are probably other factors I'm not taking into account).

Yeah, the tail is the first thing to go.  I've got grip fo days in the front.  It's not a huge deal though, it's not scary tail happy.
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2019 Acura RDX SH-AWD
2023 BRZ Limited

Previous: '02 Mazda Protege5, '08 Mazda Miata, '05 Toyota Tacoma, '09 Honda Element, '13 Subaru BRZ, '14 Hyundai Genesis R-Spec 5.0, '15 Toyota 4Runner SR5, '18 Honda Accord EX-L 2.0t, '01 Honda S2000, '20 Subaru Outback XT, '23 Chevy Bolt EUV