First Drive: 2007 Mercedes-Benz S500

[BMWDave]

True, though the VWs assembled in Germany (the Passat and Touraeg) aren't nearly as bad as the ones assembled in Mexico (the Golf and Jetta). Actually, the Passat Wagon is supposed to be the most reliable VW (it is built at a different location from the sedan).

German workmanship is a whole hell of a lot better than Mexican workmanship.  Hell, I think I would rather have my car built in Germany than any other place in the world.  

[TBR]

I think I would rather have a car engineered in Germany and built in Japan.

[BMWDave]

I think I would rather have a car engineered in Germany and built in Japan.

There is no doubt that Japan's electronics are the best in the world.  But there is just an essence of solidity to cars that BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche build in Germany.  Japanese built cars have a very good fit and finish level, but they arent as solid as German built cars.

[TBR]

That is because of the engineering, not how they are assembled (or at least I would think that would be the case).

[BMWDave]

That is because of the engineering, not how they are assembled (or at least I would think that would be the case).

Its not only the engineering, because if it was, then cars engineered in Germany but built in Mexico would be the same as cars built in Germany.  But theyre not.  

[TBR]

VWs built in Mexico just aren't put together right, a problem Japanese built ones wouldn't have.  

[BMWDave]

VWs built in Mexico just aren't put together right, a problem Japanese built ones wouldn't have.

So it does matter where they are built...they have to be put together right  

[TBR]

Yes, and Japan can put cars together quite well.  

[BMWDave]

Yes, and Japan can put cars together quite well.

Of course they can, I would just prefer German Craftsmanship to Japanese craftsmanship.    

[Raghavan]

I think I would rather have a car engineered in Germany and built in Japan.

There is no doubt that Japan's electronics are the best in the world.  But there is just an essence of solidity to cars that BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche build in Germany.  Japanese built cars have a very good fit and finish level, but they arent as solid as German built cars.

Yes, they are very solid till they're old and they start feelign like a rust bucket and feels like they're going to fall apart on you. Japanese cars, on the other hand, just keep truckin.  

[BMWDave]

I think I would rather have a car engineered in Germany and built in Japan.

There is no doubt that Japan's electronics are the best in the world.  But there is just an essence of solidity to cars that BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche build in Germany.  Japanese built cars have a very good fit and finish level, but they arent as solid as German built cars.

Yes, they are very solid till they're old and they start feelign like a rust bucket and feels like they're going to fall apart on you. Japanese cars, on the other hand, just keep truckin.

Japanese cars have a reputation for rusting out (at least older ones), not German cars  

[Raghavan]

I think I would rather have a car engineered in Germany and built in Japan.

There is no doubt that Japan's electronics are the best in the world.  But there is just an essence of solidity to cars that BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche build in Germany.  Japanese built cars have a very good fit and finish level, but they arent as solid as German built cars.

Yes, they are very solid till they're old and they start feelign like a rust bucket and feels like they're going to fall apart on you. Japanese cars, on the other hand, just keep truckin.

Japanese cars have a reputation for rusting out (at least older ones), not German cars

Well, i've mixed them up, but the German cars feel like they'll fall apart on you very quickly. <_<
I've been in 3 E30 3ers from the 80's, and all of them are rattly, wobbly. My dad's '86 Corolla, OTOH, was rock solid till its final days.  

[BMWDave]

I think I would rather have a car engineered in Germany and built in Japan.

There is no doubt that Japan's electronics are the best in the world.  But there is just an essence of solidity to cars that BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche build in Germany.  Japanese built cars have a very good fit and finish level, but they arent as solid as German built cars.

Yes, they are very solid till they're old and they start feelign like a rust bucket and feels like they're going to fall apart on you. Japanese cars, on the other hand, just keep truckin.

Japanese cars have a reputation for rusting out (at least older ones), not German cars

Well, i've mixed them up, but the German cars feel like they'll fall apart on you very quickly. <_<
I've been in 3 E30 3ers from the 80's, and all of them are rattly, wobbly. My dad's '86 Corolla, OTOH, was rock solid till its final days.

I dont know, perhaps those cars were abused.  I have an E30 3er, and while I didnt drive it all that recently, it still feels rock solid.  Its known, however, that Japanese cars, (older ones) were extremely rust prone and tinny.  German cars have a reputation of solidity.

[Raghavan]

I think I would rather have a car engineered in Germany and built in Japan.

There is no doubt that Japan's electronics are the best in the world.  But there is just an essence of solidity to cars that BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche build in Germany.  Japanese built cars have a very good fit and finish level, but they arent as solid as German built cars.

Yes, they are very solid till they're old and they start feelign like a rust bucket and feels like they're going to fall apart on you. Japanese cars, on the other hand, just keep truckin.

Japanese cars have a reputation for rusting out (at least older ones), not German cars

Well, i've mixed them up, but the German cars feel like they'll fall apart on you very quickly. <_<
I've been in 3 E30 3ers from the 80's, and all of them are rattly, wobbly. My dad's '86 Corolla, OTOH, was rock solid till its final days.

I dont know, perhaps those cars were abused.  I have an E30 3er, and while I didnt drive it all that recently, it still feels rock solid.  Its known, however, that Japanese cars, (older ones) were extremely rust prone and tinny.  German cars have a reputation of solidity.

I don't think so. My friend is a detail nut and washes it every week, and keeps it immaculately. My dad, however, hauled bricks, didn't change oil, maintain, or do anything to the Corolla, and it was still solid till its tranny blew.  

[BMWDave]

I think I would rather have a car engineered in Germany and built in Japan.

There is no doubt that Japan's electronics are the best in the world.  But there is just an essence of solidity to cars that BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche build in Germany.  Japanese built cars have a very good fit and finish level, but they arent as solid as German built cars.

Yes, they are very solid till they're old and they start feelign like a rust bucket and feels like they're going to fall apart on you. Japanese cars, on the other hand, just keep truckin.

Japanese cars have a reputation for rusting out (at least older ones), not German cars

Well, i've mixed them up, but the German cars feel like they'll fall apart on you very quickly. <_<
I've been in 3 E30 3ers from the 80's, and all of them are rattly, wobbly. My dad's '86 Corolla, OTOH, was rock solid till its final days.

I dont know, perhaps those cars were abused.  I have an E30 3er, and while I didnt drive it all that recently, it still feels rock solid.  Its known, however, that Japanese cars, (older ones) were extremely rust prone and tinny.  German cars have a reputation of solidity.

I don't think so. My friend is a detail nut and washes it every week, and keeps it immaculately. My dad, however, hauled bricks, didn't change oil, maintain, or do anything to the Corolla, and it was still solid till its tranny blew.

My E30 still feels rock solid, and felt that way when it was driven as a 17 year old car...perhaps you are a tad biased towards your trueno   :D

[Raghavan]

I think I would rather have a car engineered in Germany and built in Japan.

There is no doubt that Japan's electronics are the best in the world.  But there is just an essence of solidity to cars that BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche build in Germany.  Japanese built cars have a very good fit and finish level, but they arent as solid as German built cars.

Yes, they are very solid till they're old and they start feelign like a rust bucket and feels like they're going to fall apart on you. Japanese cars, on the other hand, just keep truckin.

Japanese cars have a reputation for rusting out (at least older ones), not German cars

Well, i've mixed them up, but the German cars feel like they'll fall apart on you very quickly. <_<
I've been in 3 E30 3ers from the 80's, and all of them are rattly, wobbly. My dad's '86 Corolla, OTOH, was rock solid till its final days.

I dont know, perhaps those cars were abused.  I have an E30 3er, and while I didnt drive it all that recently, it still feels rock solid.  Its known, however, that Japanese cars, (older ones) were extremely rust prone and tinny.  German cars have a reputation of solidity.

I don't think so. My friend is a detail nut and washes it every week, and keeps it immaculately. My dad, however, hauled bricks, didn't change oil, maintain, or do anything to the Corolla, and it was still solid till its tranny blew.

My E30 still feels rock solid, and felt that way when it was driven as a 17 year old car...perhaps you are a tad biased towards your trueno   :D

Maybe because your car has 40,000 miles on it, and you're a tad biased towards German cars.  

[BMWDave]

I think I would rather have a car engineered in Germany and built in Japan.

There is no doubt that Japan's electronics are the best in the world.  But there is just an essence of solidity to cars that BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche build in Germany.  Japanese built cars have a very good fit and finish level, but they arent as solid as German built cars.

Yes, they are very solid till they're old and they start feelign like a rust bucket and feels like they're going to fall apart on you. Japanese cars, on the other hand, just keep truckin.

Japanese cars have a reputation for rusting out (at least older ones), not German cars

Well, i've mixed them up, but the German cars feel like they'll fall apart on you very quickly. <_<
I've been in 3 E30 3ers from the 80's, and all of them are rattly, wobbly. My dad's '86 Corolla, OTOH, was rock solid till its final days.

I dont know, perhaps those cars were abused.  I have an E30 3er, and while I didnt drive it all that recently, it still feels rock solid.  Its known, however, that Japanese cars, (older ones) were extremely rust prone and tinny.  German cars have a reputation of solidity.

I don't think so. My friend is a detail nut and washes it every week, and keeps it immaculately. My dad, however, hauled bricks, didn't change oil, maintain, or do anything to the Corolla, and it was still solid till its tranny blew.

My E30 still feels rock solid, and felt that way when it was driven as a 17 year old car...perhaps you are a tad biased towards your trueno   :D

Maybe because your car has 40,000 miles on it, and you're a tad biased towards German cars.

Thats another thing, how many miles did the car have?  And you can never be sure it wasnt abused, just because he washes it once in a while.

[Raghavan]

I think I would rather have a car engineered in Germany and built in Japan.

There is no doubt that Japan's electronics are the best in the world.  But there is just an essence of solidity to cars that BMW, Mercedes, or Porsche build in Germany.  Japanese built cars have a very good fit and finish level, but they arent as solid as German built cars.

Yes, they are very solid till they're old and they start feelign like a rust bucket and feels like they're going to fall apart on you. Japanese cars, on the other hand, just keep truckin.

Japanese cars have a reputation for rusting out (at least older ones), not German cars

Well, i've mixed them up, but the German cars feel like they'll fall apart on you very quickly. <_<
I've been in 3 E30 3ers from the 80's, and all of them are rattly, wobbly. My dad's '86 Corolla, OTOH, was rock solid till its final days.

I dont know, perhaps those cars were abused.  I have an E30 3er, and while I didnt drive it all that recently, it still feels rock solid.  Its known, however, that Japanese cars, (older ones) were extremely rust prone and tinny.  German cars have a reputation of solidity.

I don't think so. My friend is a detail nut and washes it every week, and keeps it immaculately. My dad, however, hauled bricks, didn't change oil, maintain, or do anything to the Corolla, and it was still solid till its tranny blew.

My E30 still feels rock solid, and felt that way when it was driven as a 17 year old car...perhaps you are a tad biased towards your trueno   :D

Maybe because your car has 40,000 miles on it, and you're a tad biased towards German cars.

Thats another thing, how many miles did the car have?  And you can never be sure it wasnt abused, just because he washes it once in a while.

I think it has 120,000 miles on it. Not too much actually.

[thewizard16]

They both build solid cars. Happy? :P  (generalization) Older german cars are built like tanks and have some reliability issues, but are tanks nonetheless. (generalization) Japanese cars are put together very well, and hard to kill.

[BMWDave]

They both build solid cars. Happy? :P  (generalization) Older german cars are built like tanks and have some reliability issues, but are tanks nonetheless. (generalization) Japanese cars are put together very well, and hard to kill.

Older Japanese cars were rust buckets, and had very tinny metal.  I believe 280z said that metal on his car is so thin that "wind can bend it".  Just a metaphor really.  

[Raghavan]

They both build solid cars. Happy? :P  (generalization) Older german cars are built like tanks and have some reliability issues, but are tanks nonetheless. (generalization) Japanese cars are put together very well, and hard to kill.

Older Japanese cars were rust buckets, and had very tinny metal.  I believe 280z said that metal on his car is so thin that "wind can bend it".  Just a metaphor really.

You mustn't have seen the Toyota HIlux video in Top Gear then...

[BMWDave]

They both build solid cars. Happy? :P? (generalization) Older german cars are built like tanks and have some reliability issues, but are tanks nonetheless. (generalization) Japanese cars are put together very well, and hard to kill.

Older Japanese cars were rust buckets, and had very tinny metal.  I believe 280z said that metal on his car is so thin that "wind can bend it".  Just a metaphor really.

You mustn't have seen the Toyota HIlux video in Top Gear then...

I did. :D  That car is very reliable mechanically...the metal on the car got dented like crazy.  

[Raghavan]

They both build solid cars. Happy? :P? (generalization) Older german cars are built like tanks and have some reliability issues, but are tanks nonetheless. (generalization) Japanese cars are put together very well, and hard to kill.

Older Japanese cars were rust buckets, and had very tinny metal.  I believe 280z said that metal on his car is so thin that "wind can bend it".  Just a metaphor really.

You mustn't have seen the Toyota HIlux video in Top Gear then...

I did. :D  That car is very reliable mechanically...the metal on the car got dented like crazy.

Ok, here's a comprimise... Japanese cars are built tinny, but are excellently reliable mechanically. German cars are built like tanks, but aren't so reliable...

[BMWDave]

They both build solid cars. Happy? :P? (generalization) Older german cars are built like tanks and have some reliability issues, but are tanks nonetheless. (generalization) Japanese cars are put together very well, and hard to kill.

Older Japanese cars were rust buckets, and had very tinny metal.  I believe 280z said that metal on his car is so thin that "wind can bend it".  Just a metaphor really.

You mustn't have seen the Toyota HIlux video in Top Gear then...

I did. :D  That car is very reliable mechanically...the metal on the car got dented like crazy.

Ok, here's a comprimise... Japanese cars are built tinny, but are excellently reliable mechanically. German cars are built like tanks, but aren't so reliable...

I fully agree with that.  Its not like German cars are Yugos, but they certainly arent the most reliable cars.

[Raghavan]

They both build solid cars. Happy? :P? (generalization) Older german cars are built like tanks and have some reliability issues, but are tanks nonetheless. (generalization) Japanese cars are put together very well, and hard to kill.

Older Japanese cars were rust buckets, and had very tinny metal.  I believe 280z said that metal on his car is so thin that "wind can bend it".  Just a metaphor really.

You mustn't have seen the Toyota HIlux video in Top Gear then...

I did. :D  That car is very reliable mechanically...the metal on the car got dented like crazy.

Ok, here's a comprimise... Japanese cars are built tinny, but are excellently reliable mechanically. German cars are built like tanks, but aren't so reliable...

I fully agree with that.  Its not like German cars are Yugos, but they certainly arent the most reliable cars.

Of course, there are exceptions to both of those...

[thewizard16]

They both build solid cars. Happy? :P? (generalization) Older german cars are built like tanks and have some reliability issues, but are tanks nonetheless. (generalization) Japanese cars are put together very well, and hard to kill.

Older Japanese cars were rust buckets, and had very tinny metal.  I believe 280z said that metal on his car is so thin that "wind can bend it".  Just a metaphor really.

You mustn't have seen the Toyota HIlux video in Top Gear then...

I did. :D  That car is very reliable mechanically...the metal on the car got dented like crazy.

Ok, here's a comprimise... Japanese cars are built tinny, but are excellently reliable mechanically. German cars are built like tanks, but aren't so reliable...

The Japanese cars, for the most part are built well. I'm not talking about sheetmetal so much, though the 2000 Camry sat through a rather severe hailstorm with no dents. The same storm (they were parked next to each other) put a nearly fist sized dent in the a-pillar of the Dakota, and small dents all over the hood. However, the 92 Camry dents rather easily. When it comes to new cars, I'm sure the German cars and Japanese cars both dent rather easily. Older vehicles though, it certainly does seem that (Mercedes particularly... BMW not so much) the german cars are more resistant to exterior damage.

[TBR]

Our Subaru's sheet metal seems to be credit card thin, you can get it to flex without much pressure at all while I can't get the sheetmetal on the Durango to flex with all of my body weight on it (admittedly not much, but still..)

[Raghavan]

You guys should see Indian cars. My cousin sat on a Ford Ikon, and the hood flex was astounding!

[thewizard16]

Our Subaru's sheet metal seems to be credit card thin, you can get it to flex without much pressure at all while I can't get the sheetmetal on the Durango to flex with all of my body weight on it (admittedly not much, but still..)

That's good because Dakota (don't know about the brand new ones) sheetmetal, whether it be 94, 97, or 00 (the years I'm familiar with) is amazingly easy to dent.  

[thewizard16]

You guys should see Indian cars. My cousin sat on a Ford Ikon, and the hood flex was astounding!

I HATE it when people sit on hoods. No one sits on the hood of my cars, because it probably would dent. And I'd be very unhappy. Hoods are not designed to support someone's body weight, they're designed to cover and engine, stay latched down, and hopefully not dent in a hailstorm. You just shouldn't sit on the hood. Period.