Lady to Take on Honda Corp. in Small Claims Court

[TurboDan]

Car owner takes legal fight away from lawyers

Heather Peters is miffed that her Civic doesn't get its claimed fuel economy, and she isn't satisfied with a proposed settlement. So she's trying a new approach to litigation.

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-autos-honda-smallclaims-20111227,0,959031.story

~

A few of you might remember that I took VW to my county's small claims court when they denied my warranty claim under some pretty lame circumstances a couple years ago. VW sent a non-attorney rep to court, and we basically negotiated a settlement where I would be reimbursed for what I spent on the repair. Small claims courts are a great resource for settling disputes with even the largest of corporations.

Essentially, every large company has a registered agent in each state, and you serve the registered agent. It's a painless and cheap process, and really levels the playing field. Obviously, I wouldn't go this route for every little dispute, but if you feel you have a legitimate, good-faith claim after losing a significant amount of money, it's a good tool.

[2o6]

I hope she loses.

[TurboDan]

I hope she loses.

Why?

[2o6]

Why?

I remember reading her complaints awhile back. She owns a Civic hybrid, but her commute is almost all entirely on the freeway. The civic hybrid is rated for 42 combined (45 highway) so around 30mpg is totally plausible depending on conditions and how she drives.


Should I sue Chysler because my 96' Neon only got 22MPG? Should I sue Ford because my focus got
only 23mpg once?

[3.0L V6]

I remember reading her complaints awhile back. She owns a Civic hybrid, but her commute is almost all entirely on the freeway. The civic hybrid is rated for 42 combined (45 highway) so around 30mpg is totally plausible depending on conditions and how she drives.


Should I sue Chysler because my 96' Neon only got 22MPG? Should I sue Ford because my focus got
only 23mpg once?

You can sue anybody for anything. Now, whether the judge throws it out, or you win is another matter....considering most advertisements contain in the fine print: "Depending on your driving style you may not achieve the advertised mileage", her case is pretty dubious.

[ifcar]

You can sue anybody for anything. Now, whether the judge throws it out, or you win is another matter....considering most advertisements contain in the fine print: "Depending on your driving style you may not achieve the advertised mileage", her case is pretty dubious.

Also considering that Honda didn't create the fuel economy estimates....

What's next, someone sues the automaker for a crash injury because the automaker advertised a five-star NHTSA score?

[CALL_911]

I hope she loses.

Same.

[shp4man]

Most of the time, the consumer wins no matter how outlandish the claim is. We pay for it in higher car/truck prices. On the other hand, sometimes the complaint is legitimate. .

[SVT666]

If what 2o6 says is true that she drives almost entirely on the freeway then I hope she loses too.  But if she primarily drives in the city and doesn't hit the freeway much then her complaint could be totally legit.

[Speed_Racer]

Wait, aren't fuel economy claims in advertising made after EPA testing? So shouldn't she be suing the EPA, who actually performed the test and determined the economy rating?

[Mustangfan2003]

Did she not read the fine print that says "fuel economy may vary"

[Submariner]

10k for worse than expected fuel mileage?  LOL

Seriously, 2o6 has it right.  Fuel mileage is tremendously dependent on driver behavior.  I can do anywhere from 22-33MPG highway in my car depending on my driving style.  A similar fluctuation in numbers can be had in the urban cycle, too.  Even if she is in the city, she could easily fail to achieve the figures (if you don't know that MPG figures are estimates, shame on you) if she mashes the pedal from every start. 

Besides, aren't the numbers advertised produced by the EPA and not Honda?

[cawimmer430]

***Enthusiast Mode On***
-----------------------------


See? Sooner or later people would begin suing Honda for not offering any RWD cars in this day and age! It's their own fault!


-----------------------------
***Enthusiast Mode Off***

[ifcar]

If what 2o6 says is true that she drives almost entirely on the freeway then I hope she loses too.  But if she primarily drives in the city and doesn't hit the freeway much then her complaint could be totally legit.

She would have to also prove that her driving conditions mirror the EPA cycle to suggest that the estimate was actually wrong for just that car. Any number of factors affect that.

[MX793]

Wait, aren't fuel economy claims in advertising made after EPA testing? So shouldn't she be suing the EPA, who actually performed the test and determined the economy rating?

The EPA actually only tests ~15% of models.  Manufacturers test their own vehicles in accordance with EPA test procedures.  From the EPA's website:

Fuel economy is measured under controlled conditions in a laboratory using a standardized test procedure specified by federal law. Manufacturers test their own vehicles?usually pre-production prototypes?and report the results to EPA. EPA reviews the results and confirms about 10-15 percent of them through their own tests at the National Vehicles and Fuel Emissions Laboratory.

[ifcar]

The EPA actually only tests ~15% of models.  Manufacturers test their own vehicles in accordance with EPA test procedures.  From the EPA's website:

But the EPA does test a disproportionate number of hybrids itself, so it may very well have conducted the Civic Hybrid tests.

[Tave]

Either way, Honda is using the EPA figure to sell their cars and putting their endorsement on it.

I remember reading her complaints awhile back. She owns a Civic hybrid, but her commute is almost all entirely on the freeway. The civic hybrid is rated for 42 combined (45 highway) so around 30mpg is totally plausible depending on conditions and how she drives.

Huh? Did you mean to type "35 highway" or something? How is 30 mpg on almost all highway driving plausible for a car that is rated at 45 mph highway? That's an enormous difference.




Of course mileage estimates are only estimates, but in my experience they're pretty accurate. If what this lady says is true, I'd be pretty pissed too. When you spend 20 grand on a car you expect it to work as advertised, and mileage is a pretty important component of the purchase when we're talking about a hybrid.

[Byteme]

I remember reading her complaints awhile back. She owns a Civic hybrid, but her commute is almost all entirely on the freeway. The civic hybrid is rated for 42 combined (45 highway) so around 30mpg is totally plausible depending on conditions and how she drives.


Should I sue Chysler because my 96' Neon only got 22MPG? Should I sue Ford because my focus got
only 23mpg once?

The car is rated at 40 city, 45 highway.  Mileage of 30 on a largely freeway commute, mileage just 75% of the city cycle mileage, is pretty poor.  If her commute is mainly on the freeway wouldn't that more closely match highway driving conditions as opposed to the city cycle?  At least she whoud be getting somwehat near the combined cycle number, and probably knock off 10% because she is likely using the AC.

Also note the article mentions, but doesn't elaborate, on "technical problems" with the car that cause her to not achieve the mileage she was led to expect.  There's not enough in this article to give the faintest hint of the legitimacy of her claim.


An interesting site explaining the EPA tests:  http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

[Submariner]

Either way, Honda is using the EPA figure to sell their cars and putting their endorsement on it.

Huh? Did you mean to type "35 highway" or something? How is 30 mpg on almost all highway driving plausible for a car that is rated at 45 mph highway? That's an enormous difference.




Of course mileage estimates are only estimates, but in my experience they're pretty accurate. If what this lady says is true, I'd be pretty pissed too. When you spend 20 grand on a car you expect it to work as advertised, and mileage is a pretty important component of the purchase when we're talking about a hybrid.

You're assuming she isn't fabricating the entire situation.

I don't know a lot about the hybrid, but I have a very hard time picturing it getting 30 MPG unless there is some gross manufacturing defect. 

[Xer0]

Either way, Honda is using the EPA figure to sell their cars and putting their endorsement on it.

Huh? Did you mean to type "35 highway" or something? How is 30 mpg on almost all highway driving plausible for a car that is rated at 45 mph highway? That's an enormous difference.




Of course mileage estimates are only estimates, but in my experience they're pretty accurate. If what this lady says is true, I'd be pretty pissed too. When you spend 20 grand on a car you expect it to work as advertised, and mileage is a pretty important component of the purchase when we're talking about a hybrid.

I haven't heard of any cases were the difference between EPA mileage and actual mileage is this big.  If she averages 30mpg in a car that is advertised as 45mpg then she certainly has a case for something.  A couple mpg here and there isn't a big deal, but a full third less?  You guys are kidding yourselves if you think she doesn't have legitimate reason to be pissed.

[Byteme]

Wait, aren't fuel economy claims in advertising made after EPA testing? So shouldn't she be suing the EPA, who actually performed the test and determined the economy rating?

Honda is the one who manufactured and sold the car and advertised that mileage as a selling point.  All the EPA did was report what the car did on their test cycles.  

Think of building a building.  You specify 3000 PSI concrete (a pretty common spec).  The testing lab performs the anaylsis of the concrete sample and it sests at 2800 PSI.  You gonna sue the testing lab or the ready mix company?

[ifcar]

I haven't heard of any cases were the difference between EPA mileage and actual mileage is this big.  If she averages 30mpg in a car that is advertised as 45mpg then she certainly has a case for something.  A couple mpg here and there isn't a big deal, but a full third less?  You guys are kidding yourselves if you think she doesn't have legitimate reason to be pissed.

But you know nothing about what's causing the lower mileage. Mileage varies wildly based on how and where you drive, and hybrids are particularly susceptible to different driving patterns -- you can get great mileage (better than EPA for many owners) if you drive carefully and in conditions that are good for mileage, but it can quickly drop if you drive hard or in tough conditions.

At least from the article, there has been no evidence that there is anything wrong with the car or that it's Honda's fault that the way this woman happens to be driving doesn't match the driving in EPA testing.

[Tave]

But you know nothing about what's causing the lower mileage. Mileage varies wildly based on how and where you drive, and hybrids are particularly susceptible to different driving patterns -- you can get great mileage (better than EPA for many owners) if you drive carefully and in conditions that are good for mileage, but it can quickly drop if you drive hard or in tough conditions.

At least from the article, there has been no evidence that there is anything wrong with the car or that it's Honda's fault that the way this woman happens to be driving doesn't match the driving in EPA testing.

Common sense tells us the difference shouldn't be that great unless she's simply lying or driving in a manner that is so far outside the pale of normal driving habits as to be practically impossible. There's only so many ways you can adjust your driving and still safely share the road with other cars. Maybe she channels the spirit of Michael Andretti every time she steps into her Civic but I doubt it.

[Byteme]

At least from the article, there has been no evidence that there is anything wrong with the car or that it's Honda's fault that the way this woman happens to be driving doesn't match the driving in EPA testing.

Really?  The article states:  "Honda said the Civic would get about 50 miles per gallon, but because of technical problems the car gets closer to 30 mpg."  As I pointed out earlier we don't know what those technical problems are, but there is mention of a problem or problems.

[AutobahnSHO]

I get 22mpg in our van in mixed city/ 45mph divided road driving.
My wife only gets 20mpg in the same van, same routes, minus the 'spirited accelarations' from lights...

Happened the same in our old van, too.

A little variance is to be expected- 20mpg seems crazy excessive.

[ifcar]

If there is actually a defect in her particular car, this is a non-repaired warranty claim. If that is what the case is, she's in the right; the article doesn't describe it that way.

[Xer0]

But you know nothing about what's causing the lower mileage. Mileage varies wildly based on how and where you drive, and hybrids are particularly susceptible to different driving patterns -- you can get great mileage (better than EPA for many owners) if you drive carefully and in conditions that are good for mileage, but it can quickly drop if you drive hard or in tough conditions.

At least from the article, there has been no evidence that there is anything wrong with the car or that it's Honda's fault that the way this woman happens to be driving doesn't match the driving in EPA testing.

How wildly are you willing to accept based on driving pattern?  I doubt anyone who buys a hybrid to get better mileage is stop light racing or hard braking into every turn.  Sometimes, maybe, the consumer actually has a point.  We shouldn?t just dismiss this.

On the other hand, I?m pretty happy with no lawyer involvement.  Reading about what the settlement for the class was, I would be pretty pissed if I was involved.

[Byteme]

Doing a bit more digging I find a Motor Trend road test in which they averaged about 39 MPG in a 2006 Civic Hybrid.  If MT reports like Car and Driver, that mileage would include their mileage during their test procedures which are not mileage friendly and likely with the AC on.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_0604_hybrid_sedan_comparison/viewall.html


Car and Driver got 40 in their road test, with what they admit was a lot of highway miles in the total of 1000 they put on the car.  

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/honda-civic-hybrid-road-test-driving-impression-page-2


Consumer Guide Automotive got 37-38

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2007-honda-civic-1.htm

[Raza]

Also considering that Honda didn't create the fuel economy estimates....

What's next, someone sues the automaker for a crash injury because the automaker advertised a five-star NHTSA score?

Probably.

[sportyaccordy]

If what 2o6 says is true that she drives almost entirely on the freeway then I hope she loses too.  But if she primarily drives in the city and doesn't hit the freeway much then her complaint could be totally legit.

Her tires could be uninflated, she could be terrible in keeping up with maintenance, she could constantly be driving people and stuff around....

Nobody has any way of proving one way or another for many of the things that affect gas mileage, plus in any case they are estimates. It's a bogus case, unless she has tons of documentation.