Lady to Take on Honda Corp. in Small Claims Court

[Rupert]

You're assuming she isn't fabricating the entire situation.

I don't know a lot about the hybrid, but I have a very hard time picturing it getting 30 MPG unless there is some gross manufacturing defect. 

I think that's kind of the point.

[Xer0]

Her tires could be uninflated, she could be terrible in keeping up with maintenance, she could constantly be driving people and stuff around....

Nobody has any way of proving one way or another for many of the things that affect gas mileage, plus in any case they are estimates. It's a bogus case, unless she has tons of documentation.

Or her tires could be properly inflated to Honda spec, she could have went to each of her scheduled maintenance appointments at the Honda dealership, and she could be driving like a saint abiding all limits.

You?re right, we don?t know.  But, you guys are automatically writing her claims off as baseless.  I don?t know about you guys, but I have never had any of my cars, or those in my family, all of a sudden get 1/3 worse MPG.  Let alone what is practically a brand new car.

[2o6]

Or her tires could be properly inflated to Honda spec, she could have went to each of her scheduled maintenance appointments at the Honda dealership, and she could be driving like a saint abiding all limits.

You?re right, we don?t know.  But, you guys are automatically writing her claims off as baseless.  I don?t know about you guys, but I have never had any of my cars, or those in my family, all of a sudden get 1/3 worse MPG.  Let alone what is practically a brand new car.

Closer to 30 mpg could also equal 34 mpg. I remember her commute beiń mostly freeway. I'll find the link when I get home.

[Soup DeVille]

Why?

"Your mileage may vary." It says so right on the damned sticker.

Plus, Honda has no control over how the cars are rated, its all done by EPA standards which they have no control over.

In other words, she's suing Honda because the government told them to put a sticker on their car, and told them what it should say

[Soup DeVille]

The EPA actually only tests ~15% of models.  Manufacturers test their own vehicles in accordance with EPA test procedures.  From the EPA's website:

I've installed the EPA dynamometers at several Detroit area sights. The EPA does indeed audit the the testing procedure on every single model. They may not do the tests themselves, but they give approval to the manufacturer's number if and only if the tests were done exactly as they said they should be.

[SVT666]

She would have to also prove that her driving conditions mirror the EPA cycle to suggest that the estimate was actually wrong for just that car. Any number of factors affect that.

For a hybrid to get 20 mpg worse than advertised in city driving there would have to be something wrong with the car. 

[Tave]

"Your mileage may vary." It says so right on the damned sticker.

It says "your mileage may vary," not "your mileage may have no rational connection whatsoever to the number on this sticker."

Plus, Honda has no control over how the cars are rated, its all done by EPA standards which they have no control over.

In other words, she's suing Honda because the government told them to put a sticker on their car, and told them what it should say

Let's not play coy. Even if the EPA didn't exist, Honda would still use mileage figures to market its hybrids. That's the main selling point of the car.

[MX793]

It says "your mileage may vary," not "your mileage may have no rational connection whatsoever to the number on this sticker."

Let's not play coy. Even if the EPA didn't exist, Honda would still use mileage figures to market its hybrids. That's the main selling point of the car.

There have been issues with the way the EPA comes up with mileage ratings for hybrids for a long time.  IIRC, Toyota complained to the EPA that estimates for the Prius were unreasonably high and not achievable in the real world and wanted to advertise lower mileage estimates that had been generated by Toyota's own real-world testing.  The EPA denied their request.

[SVT666]

I drive my Focus like I stole it almost every day, and I still get within 15% of the advertised mileage.  This is too great of a difference to be just driving style.

[shp4man]

I get cars and trucks with mileage complaints pretty often. Mostly still on factory warranty. I have never, in over 25 years doing this, seen a vehicle that got bad gas mileage that there wasn't something else really obviously wrong. Like a check engine light on or smoking hot brakes or destroyed front tires from a front end problem. Modern cars with OBD2 are pretty smart- if the issue is with engine controls, the light will come on.
I've also ridden with customers with a tool that displays actual MPG as you drive. 90% of the time, nothing's wrong with the car.

[Soup DeVille]

For a hybrid to get 20 mpg worse than advertised in city driving there would have to be something wrong with the car. 

There are open and acknowledged kinks to the EPA system when it comes to rating hybrids, and both Hon da and the EPA know this.

[Soup DeVille]

It says "your mileage may vary," not "your mileage may have no rational connection whatsoever to the number on this sticker."

Let's not play coy. Even if the EPA didn't exist, Honda would still use mileage figures to market its hybrids. That's the main selling point of the car.

That's neither here nor there: because if Honda had ANY choice about what numbers to publish, then, and only then could they reasonably be held responsible for their numbers.

They don't, so you can't.

[Tave]

That's neither here nor there: because if Honda had ANY choice about what numbers to publish, then, and only then could they reasonably be held responsible for their numbers.

They don't, so you can't.

Such is the breaks for choosing to enter a regulated industry.

[Soup DeVille]

Such is the breaks for choosing to enter a regulated industry.

OK sure. Name one unregulated industry that isn't child porn or cocaine farming.

[Madman]

So let me see if I understand this correctly.  Some stupid fashion victim fell for the hybrid hype and is now miffed that her rolling appliance doesn't get anywhere near the EPA's bogus milage figures?  If she had done even a little bit of research she would have discovered that no hybid driver on the face of the Earth as ever come close to achieving the EPA's numbers in the real world.

Seems to me her beef is with the EPA and not Honda.  I hope the judge throws it out.

[2o6]

So let me see if I understand this correctly.  Some stupid fashion victim fell for the hybrid hype and is now miffed that her rolling appliance doesn't get anywhere near the EPA's bogus milage figures?  If she had done even a little bit of research she would have discovered that no hybid driver on the face of the Earth as ever come close to achieving the EPA's numbers in the real world.

Seems to me her beef is with the EPA and not Honda.  I hope the judge throws it out.

I think you're flat out wrong there.

[Madman]

I think you're flat out wrong there.

How am I wrong?  The EPA's testing regimen was developed in the 1970s, long before hybrids ever existed.  It is a deeply flawed test which hasn't kept up with advances in technology and is incapable of producing any reliable results when used to measure a hybrid powered car.  Manufacturers know this and have been using these grossly inflated mileage figures to sell hybrids.  Then again, it's not as if Honda has any choice in the matter since they are required to use the EPA's numbers.

[2o6]

How am I wrong?  The EPA's testing regimen was developed in the 1970s, long before hybrids ever existed.  It is a deeply flawed test which hasn't kept up with advances in technology and is incapable of producing any reliable results when used to measure a hybrid powered car.  Manufacturers know this and have been using these grossly inflated mileage figures to sell hybrids.  Then again, it's not as if Honda has any choice in the matter since they are required to use the EPA's numbers.

The EPA test has been redone several times over within the past few years.


Besides, there are plenty of people who get above or at MPG figures for hybrids.

[Madman]

The EPA test has been redone several times over within the past few years.


Besides, there are plenty of people who get above or at MPG figures for hybrids.

It's been tweeked over the years but never given the massive overhaul it needs, especially when it comes to hybrids.  And I have NEVER heard of any hybrid driver coming close to the ERA's milage estimates.  Maybe if you drive like there's an egg between you foot and accelerator you could do it?  But honestly, does anyone really drive like that?  I hope not!!!

[2o6]

It's been tweeked over the years but never given the massive overhaul it needs, especially when it comes to hybrids.  And I have NEVER heard of any hybrid driver coming close to the ERA's milage estimates.  Maybe if you drive like there's an egg between you foot and accelerator you could do it?  But honestly, does anyone really drive like that?  I hope not!!!

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/reviews/comparisons/2012-honda-civic-vs-2011-toyota-prius-hybrid-mileage-test

[Byteme]

It's been tweeked over the years but never given the massive overhaul it needs, especially when it comes to hybrids.  And I have NEVER heard of any hybrid driver coming close to the ERA's milage estimates.  Maybe if you drive like there's an egg between you foot and accelerator you could do it?  But honestly, does anyone really drive like that?  I hope not!!!

Go read the road tests I posted.  Those guys managed to get  significantly higher mileage than this lady and magazine testers aren't really know for being hypermilers.

[ifcar]

It's been tweeked over the years but never given the massive overhaul it needs, especially when it comes to hybrids.  And I have NEVER heard of any hybrid driver coming close to the ERA's milage estimates.  Maybe if you drive like there's an egg between you foot and accelerator you could do it?  But honestly, does anyone really drive like that?  I hope not!!!

I beat EPA in a Honda CR-Z, and it's routine for Prius drivers to beat EPA. It's all about learning what behavior has the most effect on mileage in that particular car.

[VTEC_Inside]

I can get over 30mpg in the RSX. I could also get less than 10mpg if I really tried.

Without proof either way I'd tell her to fly a kite.

More personally I get better mileage regularly in my CSX with its K20 5spd then my gf gets in her Civic with its little R18 auto. Guess which one had the better sticker rating...

5min in the car with her and you'd understand the reason pretty quick.

[SVT666]

Apparently the case was just heard and she made a very strong case for herself.  The Honda technician that usually works on her car testified on her behalf.  If the mechanic is testifying for her, I would say she probably isn't in the wrong here.