Full Pic Added: A Very Different Upscale 2013 Ford Fusion

[Madman]

You can't race a "stock" car anywhere and be safe.  That's why it isn't done.  It's also why NASCAR started mandating changes to make things safer.

The "Next Generation Touring Car" used in the BTCC (and the Super 2000 cars used in the WTCC) starts with a body shell from an actual production car.  Naturally, it is heavily modified for race applications but at least it is directly derived from a REAL "stock" car unlike NASCAR where absolutely nothing is shared in common with a production model.

And don't even get me started on the sheer mind-numbing boredom of oval track racing, but that's a subject for another thread.  I guess asking the typical knuckle-dragging redneck to turn both left AND right is too much of a mental challenge?  


EDIT: This is what NASCAR should be.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lj919WVSoo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_hoWUmNWa8

[ifcar]

You can't race a "stock" car anywhere and be safe.  That's why it isn't done.  It's also why NASCAR started mandating changes to make things safer.

It would be nice to see some connection to the actual cars, though. "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" doesn't work if what won was a shell with Ford headlights painted on it instead of Chevy.

[Cookie Monster]

It would be nice to see some connection to the actual cars, though. "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" doesn't work if what won was a shell with Ford headlights painted on it instead of Chevy.

Yeah, but there's too much variation between real cars. NASCAR cars are all the same, specs wise, and that's what supposedly makes it fun to watch.

[Catman]

Yeah, but there's too much variation between real cars. NASCAR cars are all the same, specs wise, and that's what supposedly makes it fun to watch.

The problem is aero is much more important than years ago. The cars have to be very similar to eliminate one manufacturer having an advantage over the others. NASCAR has done a good job encouraging good competition.

[2o6]

WTCC cars share a LOT in common with production models. Often times, drive wheels are still the same as production models.


Heck, even DTM uses car bodies mounted on racing chassis.

[68_427]

Watching Nascar is still a lot more interesting than watching football.

+1.  Also that Fusion looks badass.  2013 Cup car?

[MX793]

It would be nice to see some connection to the actual cars, though. "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" doesn't work if what won was a shell with Ford headlights painted on it instead of Chevy.

That's what production based series like the Grand Am Cup (or Koni Challenge or whatever it's called now) and Rolex Sports Car series are for.

[68_427]

Black on is badass.

[Eye of the Tiger]

The problem is aero is much more important than years ago. The cars have to be very similar to eliminate one manufacturer having an advantage over the others. NASCAR has done a good job encouraging good competition.

If they made production cars more aerodynamic, then maybe they'd actually be able to race "stock" cars, again.

[Byteme]

If they made production cars more aerodynamic, then maybe they'd actually be able to race "stock" cars, again.

Never happen.  That might mean one manufacturer would gain a rel advantage.  NASCAR isn't about the cars, it's about the show and the drivers.  NASCAR wants close races with lots of action, that means closely matched cars, which means something close to identical cars in plastic bodies that look something like the street cars.

I'd love to see NASCAR return to stock bodies and chassis and modified manufacturer's engines with roll cages and all the other safety equipmemt.

[SVT666]

Never happen.  That might mean one manufacturer would gain a rel advantage.  NASCAR isn't about the cars, it's about the show and the drivers.  NASCAR wants close races with lots of action, that means closely matched cars, which means something close to identical cars in plastic bodies that look something like the street cars.

I'd love to see NASCAR return to stock bodies and chassis and modified manufacturer's engines with roll cages and all the other safety equipmemt.

Nobody would watch it either.

[Madman]

Nobody would watch it either.

Why do you say that?  I think more people would want to see real cars on real racing circuits instead of identical plastic-bodied tractors driving round inside a bowl.  Or is Bubba Beergut just not ready for that?

[SVT666]

Why do you say that?  I think more people would want to see real cars on real racing circuits instead of identical plastic-bodied tractors driving round inside a bowl.  Or is Bubba Beergut just not ready for that?

Really?  Then why is NASCAR the largest spectator sport in the world?  Why are there not more people watching the World Touring Car Championship, or WRC, or Grand-Am?  Those are all cars that are based on real road cars and race on varying degrees of real roads or race tracks.

[Byteme]

Really?  Then why is NASCAR the largest spectator sport in the world?  Why are there not more people watching the World Touring Car Championship, or WRC, or Grand-Am?  Those are all cars that are based on real road cars and race on varying degrees of real roads or race tracks.

Because stock car racing has a large base and that's all the stock car racing there is on TV.  If they changed to what I wrote earlier I doubt all those fans would suddenly think "Aw hell, it's different now I'm gonna watch Just Say Yes To The Dress instead".  Believe me, there would still be the NASCAR loyal and probably a few more fans, those who now don't care for NASCAR now simple becasue it's not really stock car racing.  They watched it back in the 6o's when they were based on stock metal and engines.

Those other types of racing have no where near the sponsorship or promotional efforts that NASCAR has either, nor does the typical NASCAR spectator identify with those drivers or cars.  You'll never see a number form a Le Mans car with a halo above it on the back window of Bubba's pickup.

[SVT666]

Because stock car racing has a large base and that's all the stock car racing there is on TV.  If they changed to what I wrote earlier I doubt all those fans would suddenly think "Aw hell, it's different now I'm gonna watch Just Say Yes To The Dress instead".  Believe me, there would still be the NASCAR loyal and probably a few more fans, those who now don't care for NASCAR now simple becasue it's not really stock car racing.  They watched it back in the 6o's when they were based on stock metal and engines.

Those other types of racing have no where near the sponsorship or promotional efforts that NASCAR has either, nor does the typical NASCAR spectator identify with those drivers or cars.  You'll never see a number form a Le Mans car with a halo above it on the back window of Bubba's pickup.

The sponsorship comes from viewership, not the other way around.  NASCAR would lose massive amounts of fans if they got rid of the speed and the ovals.  Guaranteed.

[FoMoJo]

The sponsorship comes from viewership, not the other way around.  NASCAR would lose massive amounts of fans if they got rid of the speed and the ovals.  Guaranteed.

I can't speak for the current NASCAR fan but I really enjoyed NASCAR through, especially, the '60s as it was a realistic competition between the brands and each year you knew that they would each step it up a level and make it even more competitive and exciting to watch; not necessarily the skills of the drivers, moreso the endurance and speed of the cars.  When it became more of a formula series, it lost that aspect, imo, and watching cars that are pretty much equal in most respects going around an oval lost its appeal.  However, as an event where a family, or a bunch of guys, can sit in a giant stadium and root for their favourite team and drink beer while having a tailgate party, it seems that it would appeal to the same crowd as is drawn to any sporting event such as football or soccer; which doesn't appeal much to me.  Personally, I rather watch a mud race or tractor pull where the vehicles are more unique.

[Byteme]

The sponsorship comes from viewership, not the other way around.  NASCAR would lose massive amounts of fans if they got rid of the speed and the ovals.  Guaranteed.

I never mentioned getting rid of ovals.  

AI seem to recall a few years ago it was determined that the crs were going too fast and a rule was put in place that would limit the top speed.  The thinking was fans didn't really care if the cars were going 215 or 101 MPH and could tell anyway; wha they wanted was an exciting event with lots of action.  You can get that with sprint cars on a dirt track at far less than NASCAR speeds.

And anyway why would you lose speed if you used a stock car, heavily modified with safety cages, etc and allowed unrestricted engine development (as long as 500 of them are made with that engine)?  If nothing else it would generate some fine future collectable cars.

[SVT666]

I never mentioned getting rid of ovals.  

Madman did.

AI seem to recall a few years ago it was determined that the crs were going too fast and a rule was put in place that would limit the top speed.  The thinking was fans didn't really care if the cars were going 215 or 101 MPH and could tell anyway; wha they wanted was an exciting event with lots of action.  You can get that with sprint cars on a dirt track at far less than NASCAR speeds.

They slowed them down for safety reasons.  Fans can most certainly tell the difference between 215 and 101 mph, and if you put stock bodies on these cars, the speeds would drop so dramatically, that it would lose interest for people.  You also can't have pieces of steel bodies flying off a car that just got into an accident at 200 mph and have other cars hitting them.

And anyway why would you lose speed if you used a stock car, heavily modified with safety cages, etc and allowed unrestricted engine development (as long as 500 of them are made with that engine)?  If nothing else it would generate some fine future collectable cars.

There is no way cars with stock bodies would be hitting 200+ mph safely.  They would be impossible to control at those speeds.

[Madman]

Really?  Then why is NASCAR the largest spectator sport in the world?  Why are there not more people watching the World Touring Car Championship, or WRC, or Grand-Am?  Those are all cars that are based on real road cars and race on varying degrees of real roads or race tracks.

NASCAR is the popular spectator sport in the world?  Since when?

Here's the list, in case you're interested:

1. Football (AKA Soccer)
2. Cricket
3. Basketball
4. Tennis  
5. Motor Racing (BTW, Formula 1's worldwide audience of around one billion viewers eclipses NASCAR's regional Southern US audience)
6. Horse Racing
7. Baseball
8. Athletics
9. Golf
10. Boxing


BTW Football (AKA Soccer) has around 3.5 billion viewers worldwide.  NASCAR doesn't even come close.

[Byteme]

Madman did.
They slowed them down for safety reasons.  Fans can most certainly tell the difference between 215 and 101 mph, and if you put stock bodies on these cars, the speeds would drop so dramatically, that it would lose interest for people.  You also can't have pieces of steel bodies flying off a car that just got into an accident at 200 mph and have other cars hitting them.
There is no way cars with stock bodies would be hitting 200+ mph safely.  They would be impossible to control at those speeds.

Typo, I meant 201.  

So what's that crap that flies all over the track when there is an accident today?  Current cars are made of steel.    I'm not saying grab a Fusion down at the local dealer, put in a roll cage strip the interior and have at it.  I'm saying take a fusion strip it out, put in a crash cage, weld the damn thing together, much like they do now and let the builder have at it with whatever engine the manufacturer puts in the car (modified of course).  Of course glass would be replaced with polycarbonate, the fuel system relocated for safety with fuel cells, etc.  

At one time it was said of both horse and auto racing that racing improves the breed.  Perhaps a move to more stock configuations could do that.  Also note Ford is claiming the 2013 Fusion is very close to the body shape of the street car so perhaps at least one manufacturer can build a car controllable at 200 MPH. 

[68_427]

EDIT: This is what NASCAR should be.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Lj919WVSoo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_hoWUmNWa8

Just watch BTCC.

Quite honestly this shows a really big step into getting the cars to appear the same as the production counterpart.  It'll get closer with the next generation of cars after this.

[Northlands]

NASCAR is the popular spectator sport in the world?  Since when?

Here's the list, in case you're interested:

1. Football (AKA Soccer)
2. Cricket
3. Basketball
4. Tennis  
5. Motor Racing (BTW, Formula 1's worldwide audience of around one billion viewers eclipses NASCAR's regional Southern US audience)
6. Horse Racing
7. Baseball
8. Athletics
9. Golf
10. Boxing


BTW Football (AKA Soccer) has around 3.5 billion viewers worldwide.  NASCAR doesn't even come close.

I think he means at the event itself. He may be right too. Indianapolis has upwards of 250k people watching. I think the average attendance for NASCAR events is around 140-150k people. It's gigantic. I don't know the TV numbers though.

FWIW, I think SVT is spot on. I think there are a lot of reasons why NASCAR is in it's current form. Changing it back to regular stock cars would mess with it's business and safety model quite a bit. I know I'd likely watch vehicles in stock form quite a bit more. However, as a fan of other racing series ( WRC, Touring Car..etc ), I will readily admit that they don't have the legions of fans that NASCAR carries.