My current top ten possible Jetta replacements

[Lebowski]

Reliability is definitely A driver in the price of 996s and NSXs.

Then why the disparity between 993 and 996?

There are all sorts of cars in the older semi exotic class that are far less reliable than a 996 that have held up better wrt resale value. Rarity and desireability trump reliability in this class every time. Comparing the nsx resale value to a 996 as evidence of accord like reliability is massive fail.

I like the nsx but no way id own or recommend one as an only car. Even as a second car I wouldn't consider it if I wasn't willing to risk potentially large repair and maintenance costs.

[Cookie Monster]

Sorry I meant his used choices.
Reliability is definitely A driver in the price of 996s and NSXs.

I'm not saying for dude to get an NSX... just that the spectre of repairs and all that is not a legitimate swipe against them. At least not in comparison to his other USED choices.

I don't think it's as big of a deal with used exotics/semi exotic cars. Sure, reliability does matter for resale value (996's had that block cracking problem and whatnot), but I don't think it's really a big deal or the main reason why they're cheaper than NSX's. NSX's were arguably more of an exotic car than 911's, while also being much, much more rare and also, it's the only supercar that Honda has ever built (and probably will ever build from the looks of it).

I don't know if 993's are more reliable than 996's, but the main reason they're more expensive is because of their rarity and the fact that they were the last of the air-cooled Porsches (which also hurts the 996's value as no one wants a water cooled Porsche anyways).

[Cookie Monster]

Then why the disparity between 993 and 996?

There are all sorts of cars in the older semi exotic class that are far less reliable than a 996 that have held up better wrt resale value. Rarity and desireability trump reliability in this class every time. Comparing the nsx resale value to a 996 as evidence of accord like reliability is massive fail.

I like the nsx but no way id own or recommend one as an only car. Even as a second car I wouldn't consider it if I wasn't willing to risk potentially large repair and maintenance costs.

Yeah I threw that out there as a complete wildcard (and was half joking when I said it).

In reality, even if the car is reliable, when it does need to be fixed it won't be cheap and I'm assuming it won't be easy to work on either. Plus, being that it's all aluminum, that will drive the price up on parts and labor. And I'd never want to see an NSX driving through the snow.

[sportyaccordy]

Then why the disparity between 993 and 996?

There are all sorts of cars in the older semi exotic class that are far less reliable than a 996 that have held up better wrt resale value. Rarity and desireability trump reliability in this class every time. Comparing the nsx resale value to a 996 as evidence of accord like reliability is massive fail.

Like I said, reliability is definitely A major factor in the prices of the 996 & NSX, not THE factor. Plus in any case the 993 doesn't have the problems the 996 does. Reliability can play into desirability- especially for Honda fans.

I was not using the resale values as evidence of "Accord like reliability". Either I am presenting things too fragmented or you're being intentionally obtuse. The NSX has "Accord like reliability" because its engine is understressed and the whole car was built at a higher level of quality than Honda's already high level upon its debut. It is that reliability that helps enable used NSXs to retain their value, not the other way around

And like I said, reliability wise I would pick a 20 year old NSX over an E46 M3 or S54 equipped car or a non-Metzger watercooled Porsche. The M5 & Evo X are solid, but still more complex and higher maintenance than an NSX (especially an early one).

I'm not saying dude should get an NSX... just that you can't slam the NSX for being "too unreliable" and be seriously considering a 996 or E46 M3

[Raza]

This guy seems to think 996s are very reliable:

http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic/6470-reliability-of-996-engines/

Most of it (all of it, basically) goes over my head, but maybe some of you guys will be able to understand it better.

EDIT:  I've always understood Porsches to be about the most reliable "exotic" make out there, but it does seem that some disagree.

[sportyaccordy]

Well...

For one thing... being that he's a writer for a Porsche magazine, I would take his "opinion" with a grain of salt.

And two, that article didn't address the major issues the watercooled engines have (oil seal failures/botched design).

I think the idea of Porsches being reliable came from the old air cooled models. But something else you have to consider is the avg Porsche owner has way more of a vested interest to keep their cars running + fix issues, both from an enthusiastic POV and from a cost POV. So even that is questionable. But older Porsches were built to a higher quality (just like old Benzes etc).

[93JC]

I think the idea of Porsches being reliable came from J.D. Power & Assoc. three-year surveys and BS like that.

Everyone I've known with a Porsche older than 3-5 years has spent a ton of money keeping it on the road. I wouldn't say they're 'unreliable'; things didn't catastrophically fail. I think they're better described as "maintenance-intensive".

[Lebowski]

I'm not saying dude should get an NSX... just that you can't slam the NSX for being "too unreliable" and be seriously considering a 996 or E46 M3

Nobody said its unreliable, but any 20 yr old semi-Exotic will be not cheap to run and carries a risk of expensive repairs in the event something goes wrong.

You've made some pretty absurd statements in the last page or two that you're trying to backpedal out of with this last post. It's not working.

[r0tor]

Why no Tt-s?

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Hmm, early C6 Corvettes are in my price range. 

Sounds good to me!

[hotrodalex]

996s are the least desirable 911s, at least in my mind. They're not as cool as the classic models or 993s, but they're also not as good as the 997. Basically they're the ugly, socially challenged brother that the family tries to hide in the basement when there's company over.

[Rupert]

I think the idea of Porsches being reliable came from J.D. Power & Assoc. three-year surveys and BS like that.

Everyone I've known with a Porsche older than 3-5 years has spent a ton of money keeping it on the road. I wouldn't say they're 'unreliable'; things didn't catastrophically fail. I think they're better described as "maintenance-intensive".

Exactly. Nothing ever breaks, but with $1000 timing belt jobs, $350 brake pads, $2000 clutch jobs, etc., you'd never know it.

[Rupert]

You know, you keep saying that, but I'm not sure if it's just because you're a douchebag or if you have any reasoning behind at all.  Because my last two cars were pretty interesting, even if one was a Volkswagen sedan.  

You have a history of talking and talking and talking about your next really-cool car (how many years of MSC is coming!!! were there?), while owning a Passat and a Jetta, neither of which are interesting in the sense you imply. Closest you came was the Boxster, but that wasn't your car. I'm just saying that you do more than your share of huffing and puffing, while forgetting to blow the house down.

[Lebowski]

996s are the least desirable 911s, at least in my mind. They're not as cool as the classic models or 993s, but they're also not as good as the 997. Basically they're the ugly, socially challenged brother that the family tries to hide in the basement when there's company over.

Yep. I've never been a fan of the 996.

Love the 993, like the 997 a lot. It will be curious to see how the 997 ages (and depreciates) now w/ the 991.

[3.0L V6]

Used:
Pontiac G8 GT?
Pontiac GTO?

New:
Oddball choice: Mazda RX-8 (I think they'll be out of production by then, but a few might be hanging around dealers)

[S204STi]

Well...

For one thing... being that he's a writer for a Porsche magazine, I would take his "opinion" with a grain of salt.

And two, that article didn't address the major issues the watercooled engines have (oil seal failures/botched design).

I think the idea of Porsches being reliable came from the old air cooled models. But something else you have to consider is the avg Porsche owner has way more of a vested interest to keep their cars running + fix issues, both from an enthusiastic POV and from a cost POV. So even that is questionable. But older Porsches were built to a higher quality (just like old Benzes etc).

This is some of the most ignorant shit I've read about any topic in a long time,

[SVT666]

Cars are more reliable today then they were 20 years ago and that goes for every make and model out there.

[S204STi]

Pretty much.

[Rupert]

I'm not convinced that always applies. '80s M-Bs were damn near bulletproof, and many still are, while newer models are less so. There is a lot of stuff in modern cars that can go wrong.

[S204STi]

Mechanically though?  There is little doubt in my mind that most modern engines are incredibly reliable, assuming proper maintenance.

[Rupert]

Yeah, most, and without the gajillion ancillary parts or the rest of the car.

[S204STi]

The electrical bits are still a bit of a concern for me.  Which is part of why I may end up owning this thing indefinitely.  No stupid networking of computers so the Cylons can't hack it and pwn my shit.

[Soup DeVille]

I'm not convinced that always applies. '80s M-Bs were damn near bulletproof, and many still are, while newer models are less so. There is a lot of stuff in modern cars that can go wrong.

Old MB diesels were tanks, buit the SLs? Fuggitaboutit.

[Colonel Cadillac]

It's truly pathetic that some of you people call yourselves enthusiasts. Most of you should refer to yourselves as reliabliststs.



The man has an E39 M5, E46 M3, and a 996 911 on his list and they are largely ignored.



Balls: y'all need to grow some  



Need I remind you that YOU are not the one paying the bills?  Who the fuck cares if it costs a whole lot to maintain????

[Soup DeVille]

It's truly pathetic that some of you people call yourselves enthusiasts. Most of you should refer to yourselves as reliabliststs.

Where did I say that anything about reliability would effect my purchase decision?

[S204STi]

Hey dawg, the practical ramifications of any purchase should be considered.  What's largely at play here is that sporty seems to think the NSX is a better purchase than a 996 based on reliability, which is specious at best.

[Colonel Cadillac]

My opinion:

1) M5
2) 911
3) M3/BRZ/C6


I really don't care whether or not you can afford any of these cars. You told me that you could so, gee whiz, I'll respect it.  I just want you to take pictures and tell stories about your car, so please get something great!

[Lebowski]

C6 would be a good choice. I would take the c6 over any of the used options he listed.

[sportyaccordy]

Nobody said its unreliable, but any 20 yr old semi-Exotic will be not cheap to run and carries a risk of expensive repairs in the event something goes wrong.

You've made some pretty absurd statements in the last page or two that you're trying to backpedal out of with this last post. It's not working.

I'm not backpedaling out of anything. My stance has been consistent. You are trying to blame me for not getting what I've been saying.

What's largely at play here is that sporty seems to think the NSX is a better purchase than a 996 based on reliability, which is specious at best.

I've provided links. All you guys have provided is doubt & speculation. Show me something that says NSXs are known at all for problems as serious as oil seal failures and I will eat my hat. I wont be though, because you can't. The watercooled Porsche oil seal design is FLAWED. If it wasn't Porsche & the aftermarket would not be selling REDESIGNED parts now as a FIX. The failure rate is not super high (its in the range of 10%) but I don't see the value in that gamble... that's all.

Mind you, I love the 996. I really like the S54 BMWs. But for Raza there is no margin for error. He is not a mechancial dude and he needs his ride to get him to work no matter what. So unfortunately reliability should be a consideration, IMO...

I really don't care whether or not you can afford any of these cars.

Well to be fair, I am not sure you can appreciate the ramifications of owning a money pit just yet. Not everyone can throw caution to the wind. Raza needs whatever he's gonna get to get him to work and it doesn't sound like he has much time for anything else. Which is why I am not sure a 996 or M3 is such a good idea, given their histories...

[dazzleman]

Just about 7 months until it's time to take the Jetta off lease and do with it what I please.  While the car still feels and drives like new, I'd be doing myself a disservice if I didn't think about replacing it.  Below are my top 5 used and top 5 new choices to replace it, in order of likeliness.

Top Five Used Choices:

1.  BMW M5 (E39)
2.  BMW Z4 M Coupe
3.  BMW M3 (E46)
4.  Porsche 911 (996)
5.  Mitsubishi Evo X

Top Five New Choices:

1.  Subaru BRZ
2.  Subaru Impreza WRX
3.  Volkswagen Golf R
4.  Audi A5 2.0T
5.  Fiat 500 Abarth

Thoughts?  Suggestions?  What should I go with?  Am I overlooking something? 

I'm intruiged by the Audi A5, though I'm guessing it would be more expensive than your other new options.  I think the Evo would be a good car for you.  It would fit your personality and image.  I don't like the Z4 that much; it reminds me of a matchbox car.