F30 328i Driven: The sweet spot of the new 3 series line.

[MexicoCityM3]

And probably 75% of all BMW 3-series buyers are badge-whores...

No doubt, but that is true of basically any luxury good on the market.

[MX793]

Because you want to enjoy the performance and handling of a BMW when conditions permit, but have a long commute in traffic or a bum knee?

Or you want something that's easy to drive but not a total Camcord for your daily grind when you're not at the track in your race built Miata?

Or you can't drive stickshift?

Automatics are not what they used to be. I think something like a 4 speed auto with no control beyond "D, 3, 2, L" has no place in a Bimmer. But an obedient manumatic 8 speed? At the minimum its worth investigating. Again after playing with the 5AT in an old G35, SVT666's endorsement of the G37's 7AT, and clutchless shifting on my bike I personally don't see what the big deal is with a 3rd pedal, if a 2 pedal option offers the same feedback and control.

It's not the shifting where I miss the clutch pedal (I've been known to drive my Mazda without using the clutch from time to time), it's taking off from a stop where I find I miss the 3rd pedal.  Easier to feed power to the wheels on ice.  No need to brake-torque (which can be hard on the TorCon) to get an aggressive launch.  I also like being able to go straight from 5th or 6th gear into 3rd to overtake a slower vehicle on a 2-lane rather than having to go through each gear.

[850CSi]

And probably 75% of all BMW 3-series buyers are badge-whores...

Gotta be much more than 75%.

[cawimmer430]

Unless you have a bum knee or a bumper-to-bumper traffic commute, it does.

In Europe virtually everyone can drive a manual, yet the sales of automatics are booming, even in BMW products like the 1er and 3er. People can drive stick, yet they opt for the automatic for whatever reason be it comfort, future resale value etc.

I wouldn't complain if I had an M/T car but I simply prefer an automatic for convenience. It's comfortable for long-distance driving and it's very useful for city driving. Munich traffic is pretty intense these days.

And the lightest 5-series we get weighs 3800 lbs. It's not really a sport sedan anymore.

The target market of the 5er also has shifting expectations.

BMW just won't make the 5er a cruiser overnight because they feel like it. I remember that the two main complaints about the E60 5er were the cramped interior and the uncomfortable ride. BMW took care of that with the F10 5er, which I also experienced when Colin visited me in Europe with a 530d rental. Comfortable suspension, comfortable seats and roomier than the E60 (experienced them twice).

It's safe to say that BMW 5er owners "grow old" with their cars. Maybe in the '90s they loved the sporty handling of their E39. Then in the 2000s they loved the sportiness of the E60. But in the 2010s they've gotten older, wiser and want a blend of comfort and sport but without giving up to much sport. That's where the F10 comes in IMO.

[MexicoCityM3]

Yes, the 3 is the new 5 and the 1 is the new 3. The 5 is now a small 7.

Got that?

With that out of the way, the BMW lineup is as good as ever, just do the proper number substitution.

[Cookie Monster]

In Europe virtually everyone can drive a manual, yet the sales of automatics are booming, even in BMW products like the 1er and 3er. People can drive stick, yet they opt for the automatic for whatever reason be it comfort, future resale value etc.

I wouldn't complain if I had an M/T car but I simply prefer an automatic for convenience. It's comfortable for long-distance driving and it's very useful for city driving. Munich traffic is pretty intense these days.


The target market of the 5er also has shifting expectations.

BMW just won't make the 5er a cruiser overnight because they feel like it. I remember that the two main complaints about the E60 5er were the cramped interior and the uncomfortable ride. BMW took care of that with the F10 5er, which I also experienced when Colin visited me in Europe with a 530d rental. Comfortable suspension, comfortable seats and roomier than the E60 (experienced them twice).

It's safe to say that BMW 5er owners "grow old" with their cars. Maybe in the '90s they loved the sporty handling of their E39. Then in the 2000s they loved the sportiness of the E60. But in the 2010s they've gotten older, wiser and want a blend of comfort and sport but without giving up to much sport. That's where the F10 comes in IMO.

Sounds like these people should just stop buying 5's and buy a Buick.

[cawimmer430]

Sounds like these people should just stop buying 5's and buy a Buick.

Why?

BMW would be stupid not to offer an automatic transmission because that's the best way to tell a potential customer to take their ass over to the nearest Audi/MB dealership because "5ers are for purists and purists only".

Man, if you guys ran these car companies they'd be bankrupt already... 

[Cookie Monster]

Why?

BMW would be stupid not to offer an automatic transmission because that's the best way to tell a potential customer to take their ass over to the nearest Audi/MB dealership because "5ers are for purists and purists only".

Man, if you guys ran these car companies they'd be bankrupt already... 

Not talking about the transmission offerings since 5's have always come with autos. I was talking about making them bigger and softer and less sport sedan like to "adjust" to their customer base.

[Madman]

It's called "Model Bloat" and it's happening to nearly ever car maker.  Not even blue-chip brands like BMW, Audi and Merc are immune.

[sportyaccordy]

Man, if you guys ran these car companies they'd be bankrupt already... 

To a large degree this is true. But the E39 somehow managed the be the jack of all trades. It was still a luxury car, but it was way more engaging than even the W210 E55 AMG. And its always sold within 20% of the E-Class, at least in the US. Now its lost the dynamic crown. Aside from H&H and the option to have stickshift there's nothing really setting the BMW apart from the others (at least in non M form).

[Hachee]

Yes, the 3 is the new 5 and the 1 is the new 3. The 5 is now a small 7.

Got that?

With that out of the way, the BMW lineup is as good as ever, just do the proper number substitution.

I've been saying this for the longest time.  And when people complain about the prices now, they should just realize that today's 3 is priced like the old 5 and has a lot more equipment/technology (not that that's necessarily better, but that's the fact).

[cawimmer430]

Not talking about the transmission offerings since 5's have always come with autos. I was talking about making them bigger and softer and less sport sedan like to "adjust" to their customer base.

Cars getting bigger and heavier was to be expected. At the same time they've become more efficient and more powerful to.

I'm pretty sure BMW examined the 5-Series' buyer in detail and found out that, say 90% of buyers, didn't care about sporty handling and driving. They just wanted a comfortable limousine with some sporty pretensions. The other 10% are enthusiasts and can easily afford the sports package for the F10 5er or even an M5.

To me it's idiotic anyway to turn a luxury sedan like the 5er, E-Class etc. into a "sports sedan". There will be compromises and these cars are far to big and heavy to ever match the handling of their smaller cousins like the 3er or C-Class. I think the current Infiniti M is always being criticized for its harsh ride, it's far to sports biased that it completely neglects the comfort aspect. I don't know about you, but I'd pick comfort and capable handling anyday over sport/razor sharp handling and crap comfort.

[cawimmer430]

To a large degree this is true. But the E39 somehow managed the be the jack of all trades. It was still a luxury car, but it was way more engaging than even the W210 E55 AMG. And its always sold within 20% of the E-Class, at least in the US. Now its lost the dynamic crown. Aside from H&H and the option to have stickshift there's nothing really setting the BMW apart from the others (at least in non M form).

Those who don't want an F10 5er will at least have other choices: 6er Gran Coupe or 6er Coupe for example. None of the Japanese or Korean luxury rivals play in this league (unless you believe that BS from Lexus fan[boy]s about how their ES is a "4-door coupe" that competes with the Panamera, Rapide, CLS, A7 and 6er Gran Coupe).   

IMO the current F10 5er is better than ever. It now offers great comfort and is still a sporty car. I don't think that most people shopping in this class will really care about top handling anyway, no matter what fantasy bullshit BMW and Driver magazine claims. If people want a sporty and good-handling car from BMW to have fun in and transport their family on weekends, then the 3er and especially the 3er Touring are great choices (not sure if you get the wagon in the US). If you really want a purist driving machine, the 1er Coupe/Convertible and 3er Coupe/Convertible and Z4 are the cars to go to. Relatively light, great handling and steering response, balanced suspension etc. These are the BMWs that are the ultimate driving machines (and the M3 and M5).

[sportyaccordy]

Those who don't want an F10 5er will at least have other choices: 6er Gran Coupe or 6er Coupe for example. None of the Japanese or Korean luxury rivals play in this league (unless you believe that BS from Lexus fan[boy]s about how their ES is a "4-door coupe" that competes with the Panamera, Rapide, CLS, A7 and 6er Gran Coupe).    

IMO the current F10 5er is better than ever. It now offers great comfort and is still a sporty car. I don't think that most people shopping in this class will really care about top handling anyway, no matter what fantasy bullshit BMW and Driver magazine claims. If people want a sporty and good-handling car from BMW to have fun in and transport their family on weekends, then the 3er and especially the 3er Touring are great choices (not sure if you get the wagon in the US). If you really want a purist driving machine, the 1er Coupe/Convertible and 3er Coupe/Convertible and Z4 are the cars to go to. Relatively light, great handling and steering response, balanced suspension etc. These are the BMWs that are the ultimate driving machines (and the M3 and M5).

What made the E39 so great was that it combined the luxury & room of the 5 with the engagement and sportiness of the 3. This was inherent in every model from the base 520i up to (obviously) the M5. It was sporty but not harsh, even in M5 trim. It had a much wider range of character than its competitors and the F10 which made it a great choice for anyone who wanted luxury & sport, and IMO a better value than all its contemporaries (including the W210). Now it is just another luxury sedan. The loss of choice in the market is never a good thing.

And actually the new GS is being reported by magazines as having a playful character. Its only marred by lifeless steering. On the low end the G37 and IS350 are both solid alternatives to German offerings. As much as you want to deny the infiltration of the Asians the reality is they are making headway in these segments. The LS' sales figures are right on the level of the S-Class in the US. I'm sure overall in the US Lexus is right in the mix with BMW & Mercedes. So I know you were joking but jokes are only funny when they are rooted in reality.

[CALL_911]

(unless you believe that BS from Lexus fan[boy]s about how their ES is a "4-door coupe" that competes with the Panamera, Rapide, CLS, A7 and 6er Gran Coupe).   

Nobody has ever said that, you fucking moron!

[MexicoCityM3]

If you really want a purist driving machine, the 1er Coupe/Convertible and 3er Coupe/Convertible and Z4 are the cars to go to. Relatively light, great handling and steering response, balanced suspension etc. These are the BMWs that are the ultimate driving machines (and the M3 and M5).

I mostly agree with you. I would add the 1er hatch and the 3er sedan to the list of still great handling BMWs. And I would remove the Z4 from that list. It is not that good really.

An regarding the new 5er, it has been getting rave reviews in Europe and bad reviews in the U.S. It seems to me that most Europeans agree with your perspective.

[Cookie Monster]

Cars getting bigger and heavier was to be expected. At the same time they've become more efficient and more powerful to.

I'm pretty sure BMW examined the 5-Series' buyer in detail and found out that, say 90% of buyers, didn't care about sporty handling and driving. They just wanted a comfortable limousine with some sporty pretensions. The other 10% are enthusiasts and can easily afford the sports package for the F10 5er or even an M5.

To me it's idiotic anyway to turn a luxury sedan like the 5er, E-Class etc. into a "sports sedan". There will be compromises and these cars are far to big and heavy to ever match the handling of their smaller cousins like the 3er or C-Class. I think the current Infiniti M is always being criticized for its harsh ride, it's far to sports biased that it completely neglects the comfort aspect. I don't know about you, but I'd pick comfort and capable handling anyday over sport/razor sharp handling and crap comfort.

As Sporty has been saying BMW nailed it with the E39. That was both a comfy cruiser as well as a great handling canyon carver. Now BMW seems to be focusing too much on just comfort over sportiness. Having to buy an M5 just to get a sporty midsize sedan is just silly. I have friends who have tracked anything from E39 528's to M5's. I don't think you could do the same with the current car.

[Colin]

Buried in among some rather strong opinions in this thread is the reality............... BMW is a business and to grow and deliver bigger profits they need to sell more cars, and more profitable cars. Although we are all (allegedly) enthusiasts, the reality is that the vast majority of purchasers are not. Luckily for those who sell premium products, such as BMW, an ever growing slice of the market are badge snobs, and this has helped to fuel growth for BMW (and Mercedes and Audi and others). But, there is a fine line to tread between retaining what got you to be desirable in the first place and maintaining appeal to this much larger new customer set who would, frankly, not accept some of the design compromises that we would willingly live with in return for "the ultimate driving machine".  So it should not surprise at all that not only are there models like the X6 which are anathema to the brand traditionalists, but that some of the core models have a change of emphasis........... fortunately, BMW do still make cars like the 1M Coupe, the M3 and M5, and they are just as tantalisingly unaffordable as probably the 2002tii and 323i and 528i were in the 1970s! 

[850CSi]

yet they opt for the automatic for whatever reason be it comfort, future resale value etc.

Right, so they're not enthusiasts.




Thread summary:
ITT: Wimmer argues that cars are moving in a certain direction because companies are catering to buyers.


ITT: car enthusiasts respond they don't give a fuck.

[cawimmer430]

Nobody has ever said that, you fucking moron!

Yes they have. I realized right away these are stupid clueless kids who think the ES is a 4-door coupe. Still, amusing stuff. 

[cawimmer430]

What made the E39 so great was that it combined the luxury & room of the 5 with the engagement and sportiness of the 3. This was inherent in every model from the base 520i up to (obviously) the M5. It was sporty but not harsh, even in M5 trim. It had a much wider range of character than its competitors and the F10 which made it a great choice for anyone who wanted luxury & sport, and IMO a better value than all its contemporaries (including the W210). Now it is just another luxury sedan. The loss of choice in the market is never a good thing.

Yet the vast majority of people buying an E39 weren't enthusiasts. They wanted a car from a prestige brand and a bit more comfort. That's what I am saying is probably what made BMW engineer the F10 5er the way they did. If they listened to the enthusiasts they'd loose more customers who'd go to MB, Audi etc. BMW can't cater to enthusiasts with all their cars because enthusiasts are a small minority in the big pictures. Besides, there are several cars I've mentioned available in the BMW lineup that cater to driving purists.

The W210 never claimed to be a sports sedan. Why do people always compare the W210 to the E39 in terms of driving experience? Both cars couldn't be more different. I've driven the W210. It's a comfortable long-distance cruiser with capable handling, not sporty, but competent enough (especially the European versions which had more steering feedback [the US received dumbed-down versions extremely biased towards comfort and lack of steering feel]).

[cawimmer430]

An regarding the new 5er, it has been getting rave reviews in Europe and bad reviews in the U.S. It seems to me that most Europeans agree with your perspective.

Most European reviews praise the blend the new 5er offers in terms of comfort and sport. I remember the older reviews about the E39 and E60 which praised the handling, steering feedback and dynamism, but they always criticized the comfort.

I still fail to see why everyone is so upset about the 5er having lost some of its overall sportiness. It's to big and heavy to be a real track car (except in M5 guise) but I'm pretty sure it's still a capable backroad-eater.

[cawimmer430]

I have friends who have tracked anything from E39 528's to M5's. I don't think you could do the same with the current car.

Well the F10 is a heavy car.

When you go on a European racetrack event most of the 5ers there are the older E34s. They're the default choice because they're, inexpensive, light and relatively powerful (and easy to tune).

I still don't think the 5er is the perfect car for the track. A 1er and 3er will ALWAYS be better suited because they're lighter, have a shorter wheelbase and less weight. Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the new 3er weigh as much or more than an older E39 5-Series?

[cawimmer430]

Right, so they're not enthusiasts.

Oh come on.

There are tons of car enthusiasts who drive cars with automatics. Not every enthusiast has the same priorities in their daily driving.

Are you going to call someone who passionately owns and drives a classic Mercedes 450SEL 6.9 a "non-enthusiast" just because the car has an automatic transmission?

[Cookie Monster]

Yet the vast majority of people buying an E39 weren't enthusiasts. They wanted a car from a prestige brand and a bit more comfort. That's what I am saying is probably what made BMW engineer the F10 5er the way they did. If they listened to the enthusiasts they'd loose more customers who'd go to MB, Audi etc. BMW can't cater to enthusiasts with all their cars because enthusiasts are a small minority in the big pictures. Besides, there are several cars I've mentioned available in the BMW lineup that cater to driving purists.

The W210 never claimed to be a sports sedan. Why do people always compare the W210 to the E39 in terms of driving experience? Both cars couldn't be more different. I've driven the W210. It's a comfortable long-distance cruiser with capable handling, not sporty, but competent enough (especially the European versions which had more steering feedback [the US received dumbed-down versions extremely biased towards comfort and lack of steering feel]).

That was the beauty of the E39, and why it's still considered to be one of the best BMW's ever made. Unthusiasts bought the car because it was a comfortable daily driver, while enthusiasts bought the car because it was a great driver's car while still being a comfortable daily driver. It was pretty much the best of both worlds IMO.

[cawimmer430]

That was the beauty of the E39, and why it's still considered to be one of the best BMW's ever made. Unthusiasts bought the car because it was a comfortable daily driver, while enthusiasts bought the car because it was a great driver's car while still being a comfortable daily driver. It was pretty much the best of both worlds IMO.

Point taken.

Why BMW couldn't managed this with the E60 and F10 is beyond our knowledge.

To me the F10 5er is the most appealing 5er ever. A good handler, comfortable suspension and comfortable seats and spacious inside. I don't really care about driving on the track, especially with such a big car like the current 5er. A 1er will feel much more nimble and controllable on a track.

[850CSi]

Oh come on.

There are tons of car enthusiasts who drive cars with automatics. Not every enthusiast has the same priorities in their daily driving.

And most enthusiasts favor control and being connected with the road over comfort, resale value, etc.

Are you going to call someone who passionately owns and drives a classic Mercedes 450SEL 6.9 a "non-enthusiast" just because the car has an automatic transmission?

450SEL ≠ 3-Series. Completely different cars. I don't like slushboxes generally because I get bored and feel less in control over what's going on, but they have their place in some cars. Not in a 3-series (unless you have a bum knee, horrific commute, etc.). Not in a Miata. Not in an M3.


You're saying an auto doesn't necessarily make one an unthusiast. I'm not denying that. I'm saying that when I see a 3-series in a parking lot, 95+% of the time you can tell if the driver is an enthusiast or just a brand whore who doesn't give a shit how the car drives based on the transmission. I'm further saying it makes no sense for an enthusiast to buy a 3-series with an auto without the reasons referenced above.

Why BMW couldn't managed this with the E60 and F10 is beyond our knowledge.

[cawimmer430]

And most enthusiasts favor control and being connected with the road over comfort, resale value, etc.

Well yes. But there are also car enthusiasts who for some reason prefer an A/T. That's all I am saying.

450SEL ≠ 3-Series. Completely different cars. I don't like slushboxes generally because I get bored and feel less in control over what's going on, but they have their place in some cars. Not in a 3-series (unless you have a bum knee, horrific commute, etc.). Not in a Miata. Not in an M3.


You're saying an auto doesn't necessarily make one an unthusiast. I'm not denying that. I'm saying that when I see a 3-series in a parking lot, 95+% of the time you can tell if the driver is an enthusiast or just a brand whore who doesn't give a shit how the car drives based on the transmission. I'm further saying it makes no sense for an enthusiast to buy a 3-series with an auto without the reasons referenced above.

Most people who buy 3-Series are interested in the badge. It's the same with most buyers of most luxury cars. Enthusiasts are a small part of the big picture.

Still, there are certainly people out there who are enthusiasts, yet happen to drive an A/T 3er for whatever reason. It exists, as weird as it sounds.

[hotrodalex]

My dad drives an automatic 3 series yet he has more mechanical ability and knowledge than most people on this board. Yet the transmission choice for his car supposedly makes him an unenthusiast?

Some of you guys need to get over yourselves. Transmission choice doesn't really matter. Yeah, manuals give you more control, but an auto Bimmer is still just as fun. It doesn't turn into a Camry when you take away the clutch pedal. Just because you prefer a stick shift doesn't mean it's the only option for an enthusiast.

[Cookie Monster]

My dad drives an automatic 3 series yet he has more mechanical ability and knowledge than most people on this board. Yet the transmission choice for his car supposedly makes him an unenthusiast?

Some of you guys need to get over yourselves. Transmission choice doesn't really matter. Yeah, manuals give you more control, but an auto Bimmer is still just as fun. It doesn't turn into a Camry when you take away the clutch pedal. Just because you prefer a stick shift doesn't mean it's the only option for an enthusiast.

I agree it doesn't make you an unenthusiast, but I disagree that an automatic BMW is just as fun as a manual BMW, and this is coming from someone who thought the automatic E90 328i was a great car.