Porsche 991 GT3 may come with PDK only (Yea!!)

[565]

http://www.insideline.com/porsche/911/2013/next-porsche-911-gt3-may-come-with-pdk-gearbox-only.html

So apparently the 991 GT3 will only come with one gearbox choice, either manual or PDK.  Currently they are leaning towards PDK.  As you all know, I'm a huge fan of DCTs.  If Porsche does go with the PDK on the GT3, this is wonderful news.  

[CALL_911]

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[565]

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Resistance is futile.

[Raza]

Boo.  An enthusiast car that comes in automatic only.  More of the Ferrari "only old men drive this and they can't drive stick so we need an excuse to put in automatic transmissions, cue bullshit motorsport connection".   

[cawimmer430]

Awesome. Now the teenage girls that will drive these can talk on their phone and do their nails at the same time and don't have to concentrate on shifting. Porsche knows what safety is all about! Give 'em a hug!  

[SVT666]

Sad news.

[r0tor]

A gt3 is suppose to be a street legal race car... So this makes sense

[Lebowski]

Meh, my 991 wouldn't be in GT3 form anyway.

[SVT666]

A gt3 is suppose to be a street legal race car... So this makes sense

That's true.

[Raza]

A gt3 is suppose to be a street legal race car... So this makes sense

The RS maybe, but not the standard car.

[sportyaccordy]

How much can one like a car if all it takes for them to hate it is a change in transmissions

ITs not even like its a bad transmission. It makes a lot of sense for the GT3. Why hamper the driving experience with a stickshift, when you can switch to paddles that will enable you to focus more on piloting a 500HP 3000lb rear engined race car with plates?

[Submariner]

How much can one like a car if all it takes for them to hate it is a change in transmissions

ITs not even like its a bad transmission. It makes a lot of sense for the GT3. Why hamper the driving experience with a stickshift, when you can switch to paddles that will enable you to focus more on piloting a 500HP 3000lb rear engined race car with plates?

Because a lot of people like driving stick?

[Gotta-Qik-C7]

Because a lot of people like driving stick?

and even more like driving Automatics. 

[sportyaccordy]

Because a lot of people like driving stick?

It's still a Porsche GT3! Theres more to a car than its transmission.

I put it like this. If given the opportunity to drive a stickshift Yaris or a DSG GT3, what would people here choose? If you say the Yaris you're lying.

This is the automotive equivalent of pointy elbows.

[Onslaught]

We all know this is going to happen. And years down the road it will happen in the Z and RX cars too. And I'll have to buy old cars.

[cawimmer430]

The folks buying this car are interested in serious track performance. They want the best performance possible and the PDK makes the car more capable and simply better.

I have a hard time believing that driving a Porsche GT3 equipped with a PDK is "boring". Some people will go as far to claim that a Geo Metro 5-speed is more fun than a PDK-equipped Porsche. Oh please. Everyone always talks about how the "manual transmission makes a car fun". That's not true or it's at least highly subjective and a personal opinion. There are other factors that make a car fun, namely handling, the sound of its engine, the responsiveness or feel of the steering feedback etc. etc. etc.

If you want a Porsche with an M/T, there's a ton of options out there for you. It's not like you need a GT3 anyway...


Anyone remember that interview awhile back with the chief developer of the BMW F10 M5? He was so irritated that some markets, namely the US, still demanded a manual transmission. The Internet crowd responded by labeling him as a douche etc. Nobody seemed to understand his point of view - namely that when you're paying for a high-tech luxury sports sedan like the BMW M5, you want the best of the best in both performance and luxury. The 7-speed dual clutch transmission of the F10 M5 gives the car the performance edge and enhances its performance greatly compared to the manual. Because of this, the guy couldn't understand that some people still wanted an M/T in this car, which would take away some of its performance prowess and capabilities.

If you want a "fun" car with a manual transmission, then get a Toyota Corolla. 

[sportyaccordy]

You know shit is fucked up when I am agreeing with Wimmer 110%. People have to be crazy to suggest an automated transmission will completely dull the experience of driving something like a 911 GT3. I enjoy driving stickshift and think it has its place. I also don't think it's going to die. But claiming a supercar like a 458 Italia or 911 GT3 would be boring to drive solely because of its transmission is like claiming sex with someone like Meagan Fox would be if you had to wear a condom. You're still fucking Meagan Fox and there are practical considerations that might warrant the condom. Its the same deal with DSGs on and off the track.

Raza you claimed I was nuts for being anti-turbo. But your hatred of automated transmissions is the same deal. And the difference is, in the performance realm N/A cars really are disappearing. BMW doesn't sell an N/A car in the US. In the last 5 years we lost the S2000, RX-8, Elise, K20A and a slew of other N/A cars. Cylinder counts are down. And IMO turbocharging has a far more profound effect than the transmission- provided the transmission allows for the level of control you want. It changes the whole character of the engine. But you can still get a stickshift in anything from a Corolla to a Corvette. So the whole "stickshift is dying" deal is dumb as hell. In my opinion anyway.

[Raza]

This is the automotive equivalent of pointy elbows.

No it isn't.  A transmission is a HUGE part of driving.  You basically interact with the steering wheel, the pedals, and the transmission. Take out 1/3 of that equation and it amounts to a very different experience.  Better or worse is up to you.  And in my opinion, it's worse.  I'm sure the car is still an amazing machine, but to me, it becomes more machine and less a part of me when paired with an automatic transmission.  And before ChrisV or someone else flames me for holding an opinion, I want to state it as exactly that.  I won't say that across the board manuals are better than automatics or that I'd choose any manual over any automatic, because that's just silly.  But Porsche was the last bastion of the manual transmission and to see them fall to the Fat Old Guy Syndrome like Ferrari and now Lamborghini have is severely disappointing.  FOGs don't want to stall in front of their silicone girlfriends or have the heavy clutch bother their arthritic knees, so they drum up a motorsport connection and call it race technology and have a great excuse for putting an automatic in a car that will likely never see track time. 

[Raza]

The folks buying this car are interested in serious track performance.

No, they're not.  A few, but not the majority.

They want the best performance possible and the PDK makes the car more capable and simply better.

Better is far too subjective a word to use.  More capable, yes, faster around a track, yes, better?  No.

I have a hard time believing that driving a Porsche GT3 equipped with a PDK is "boring". Some people will go as far to claim that a Geo Metro 5-speed is more fun than a PDK-equipped Porsche. Oh please.

To echo you, oh please.  Strawman much?  No one said that.  No one is claiming that a Geo Metro is more fun.  No one called the GT3 boring. 

Everyone always talks about how the "manual transmission makes a car fun". That's not true or it's at least highly subjective and a personal opinion. There are other factors that make a car fun, namely handling, the sound of its engine, the responsiveness or feel of the steering feedback etc. etc. etc.

You say that fun is subjective and personal (which, to an extent, I agree with), but then bandy a word like "better" around as if better is an absolute. 

If you want a Porsche with an M/T, there's a ton of options out there for you. It's not like you need a GT3 anyway...

Well, since no one needs a GT3, why even make it?  Of course, there are options with manual transmissions.  But are any as capable or as keyed in as a GT3 while still being passable as a daily driver?  No.  A standard 911 isn't as capable as a GT3, otherwise they wouldn't make a GT3.

Anyone remember that interview awhile back with the chief developer of the BMW F10 M5? He was so irritated that some markets, namely the US, still demanded a manual transmission. The Internet crowd responded by labeling him as a douche etc. Nobody seemed to understand his point of view - namely that when you're paying for a high-tech luxury sports sedan like the BMW M5, you want the best of the best in both performance and luxury. The 7-speed dual clutch transmission of the F10 M5 gives the car the performance edge and enhances its performance greatly compared to the manual. Because of this, the guy couldn't understand that some people still wanted an M/T in this car, which would take away some of its performance prowess and capabilities.

A big fat luxury sedan isn't the same thing as a two-seat GT car.  It's ridiculous to equate the two.  And if you recall, there was enough of an uproar about the previous M5 that they put a 6 speed manual in it and sold it in the US.  There was also an uproar about the Ferrari California as well, where Ferrari said they would sell a California in the US with a manual (though, admittedly, I don't know if they ever did).  People like manual transmissions.  And in cars that can only be fully utilized by a trained driver on a track, a manual transmission can enhance the experience for people who live in the real world, but still want access to that kind of power and prowess.

[GoCougs]

I wholly endorse the PDK and DSG-type trannies as a whole. It's a superior and better performing tech. I also prefer them.

The only downside IMO is cost and reliability. They're pretty good but burn out the clutches or just need a replacement and you're looking at a new and incredibly expensive transmission (more so than other types).

[Cookie Monster]

Sporty, I'm surprised that you're not crying about this, since you're always going on about choice.

This news makes me sad, because not only is Porsche killing off manuals, but more and more manufacturers will be doing the same thing. On a GT3, it doesn't matter that much as it's a "racecar", but I really don't want this to happen to cars like the Z, RX, and even worse, Miata's, etc.

[sportyaccordy]

Sporty, I'm surprised that you're not crying about this, since you're always going on about choice.

This news makes me sad, because not only is Porsche killing off manuals, but more and more manufacturers will be doing the same thing. On a GT3, it doesn't matter that much as it's a "racecar", but I really don't want this to happen to cars like the Z, RX, and even worse, Miata's, etc.

It's the same level of choice as always, so I don't see how that's relevant. Should they offer both? Definitely. But if Ferrari is any indication, it's clear what kinds of transmissions folks who can plunk $150, 250, 350K on a car prefer. So I can't knock them. That is a different situation than the death of the N/A engine.

And what low level sports cars have abandoned stickshift entirely? The only one I can think of is the R32... and it's replacement, the Golf R, is coming only with a conventional stick. Everything else... 350Z, Miata, GTI, MS3, FT-86, WRX, Civic Si, Genesis, Camaro, Mustang, TT, 1-series, CR-Z, Veloster, whatever the fuck... all these cars still come with stickshift. You can still get stickshift in nearly all the cheaper BMWs, Hondas, Mazdas, Nissans, whatever. In fact right now I am struggling to think what fun cars are out there that you can't get in stickshift. The death of the manuals is overblown.

No it isn't.  A transmission is a HUGE part of driving.  You basically interact with the steering wheel, the pedals, and the transmission. Take out 1/3 of that equation and it amounts to a very different experience.  Better or worse is up to you.  And in my opinion, it's worse.  I'm sure the car is still an amazing machine, but to me, it becomes more machine and less a part of me when paired with an automatic transmission.  And before ChrisV or someone else flames me for holding an opinion, I want to state it as exactly that.  I won't say that across the board manuals are better than automatics or that I'd choose any manual over any automatic, because that's just silly.  But Porsche was the last bastion of the manual transmission and to see them fall to the Fat Old Guy Syndrome like Ferrari and now Lamborghini have is severely disappointing.  FOGs don't want to stall in front of their silicone girlfriends or have the heavy clutch bother their arthritic knees, so they drum up a motorsport connection and call it race technology and have a great excuse for putting an automatic in a car that will likely never see track time.  

You interact with a lot more than the controls. You have to see to drive, so the view out is important. The engine note, the sound of the tires at the limits of adhesion, you use + enjoy these too. The Corvette has been berated for its old man seats so relevant comfort is important too. If all that it took for a car to be fun were having the right controls an old Ford pickup with a stickshift would be more fun than a GT3 with paddles. And we both know that's not true. Hell, why bother with a car at all, when you could just buy a fancy Logitech setup and play GT5. W/a working "clutch" and "stickshift" by proxy that should be more fun than actually driving a GT3.

As far as "FOGS"... who gives a shit. FOGS buy these cars new and drive them to work AND the track. They are no less enthusiasts than you because they chose the "wrong" transmission, and much of your assumptions are bogus. By your logic I could take a leap and say anyone who drives stickshift does so as a form of goofy teenage rebellion. "Im not a FOG, I am a purist... count my pedals!" Give me a break. If anything, balls to the wall no safety net cars like the Noble M600 and the Viper and all that shit are the real ego servers. Barring actual race car drivers, few to no owners of these cars have driving abilities that come close to the cars capabilities. But you don't question their motives, because as the arbiter of automotive enthusiasm you deem their choices sound due to nothing more than their pedal count. Goofy as hell. Arbitrary as hell. Doesn't make too much sense

[Raza]

Dude....what the fuck are you talking about?  You're comparing driving a stickshift to playing a video game?  You've completely lost it.

And you're ALSO ignoring the fact that I said it was MY OPINION and DIDN'T APPLY TO ANYONE ELSE.  More strawmen from the "automatics are better" crowd, I see.

EDIT:  I'm using caps because you clearly missed it last time, or maybe you were reading something else.

[sportyaccordy]

Dude....what the fuck are you talking about?  You're comparing driving a stickshift to playing a video game?  You've completely lost it.

And you're ALSO ignoring the fact that I said it was MY OPINION and DIDN'T APPLY TO ANYONE ELSE.  More strawmen from the "automatics are better" crowd, I see.

EDIT:  I'm using caps because you clearly missed it last time, or maybe you were reading something else.

If you don't want shit you post to be discussed... don't post it

You can't post shit like "only old men drive this and they can't drive stick so we need an excuse to put in automatic transmissions, cue bullshit motorsport connection", and then when questioned on it cry "its just my opinion". Opinions can be wrong, especially when they are based on bullshit assumptions and self-serving projections on people you don't know.

[Raza]

If you don't want shit you post to be discussed... don't post it

You can't post shit like "only old men drive this and they can't drive stick so we need an excuse to put in automatic transmissions, cue bullshit motorsport connection", and then when questioned on it cry "its just my opinion". Opinions can be wrong, especially when they are based on bullshit assumptions and self-serving projections on people you don't know.

Again, that's not what I'm saying.  You completely misread my post. 

I'm not attacking anyone for choosing to drive an automatic car, and you continue to insist that I am. 

[SVT666]

Wow.  You guys are acting like Porsche just killed the manual transmission from it's entire lineup.  They killed it from one configuration of a car that is available in 28 different versions (yes, 28 different versions of the 911 from the factory.  Nobody better complain about Ford's 8 versions of the Mustang anymore).  It's a car that is designed for track use and on the track a flappy paddle gearbox makes sense for lap times.

[sportyaccordy]

Again, that's not what I'm saying.  You completely misread my post.  

I'm not attacking anyone for choosing to drive an automatic car, and you continue to insist that I am.  

OK then, tell me what you meant to say. Cause it sounded a lot like you were saying folks who don't buy enthusiast cars in stickshift can't buy stick, and that those who buy the likes of cars like the GT3 with paddles only buy them to impress their "silicone girlfriends". As though everyone who bought the likes of the Countach and all that were white knuckle purists who sought nothing more than the pursuit of driving. That goes well beyond just saying "i dont like non-manual transmissions"

[Raza]

OK then, tell me what you meant to say. Cause it sounded a lot like you were saying folks who don't buy enthusiast cars in stickshift can't buy stick, and that those who buy the likes of cars like the GT3 with paddles only buy them to impress their "silicone girlfriends". As though everyone who bought the likes of the Countach and all that were white knuckle purists who sought nothing more than the pursuit of driving. That goes well beyond just saying "i dont like non-manual transmissions"

"Non-manual"?  It's called automatic.  Get it right. 

I was talking about the fake bullshit motorsports connection that these companies rely on sell lazy tech to FOGs.  And more strawman with that Countach bullshit.  Address what I said, not what you want to project on to what I said, please. 

[sportyaccordy]

"Non-manual"?  It's called automatic.  Get it right. 

I was talking about the fake bullshit motorsports connection that these companies rely on sell lazy tech to FOGs.  And more strawman with that Countach bullshit.  Address what I said, not what you want to project on to what I said, please. 

How is it lazy tech when it comes directly from motorsports? I suppose things like disc brakes, multivalve engines, aerodynamic devices, etc. are all for the "lazy" too. After all they enabled people with no kind of racing pedigree to safely pilot Ferraris and Lamborghinis back in the day, and were developed wholly through motorsport. Ferrari's modus operandi from day 1 was to build road cars to fund their race programs, and developed many of their bread winners to be quickly changed over into race cars. The application of the technologies you hate mirrored developments in racing... which is pretty much the opposite of "lazy old man tech"

The Countach deal is not a strawman. Rich old men drove Countaches for the same exact reasons they drive Aventadors now. So I find the idea that the loss of a pedal reflects some dramatic death blow to the philosophy or market base of these companies. The 911 has been the same damn car with careful little tweaks along the way, along with a healthy helping of lessons learned and technology from racing. Lambo has and always will make cars for rich old men and playboys... it has always been about ostentatiousness and a wild driving experience. Ferrari is Ferrari. Plus Porsche has had automatic transmissions in its cars for over 30 years. So I'm confused as to what exactly the shift is about.

[Raza]

Automatic with clutch = Awesome!  Race tech for the road!
Automatic with torque converter = Horrible!  Family station wagon tech.

Does not compute.