2008 Scirocco

[Raghavan]

Perhaps when you are pulling out onto a busy highway

Please... It shoves you back into your seat. It's got more than enough torque at low engine speeds so you don't have to rev the engine too hard. There's more than enough torque until 6k rpm, so you never even have to take it that high.

[TBR]

The mags don't seem to think so and I trust their opinions much more than I do yours.

[MrH]

Perhaps when you are pulling out onto a busy highway

WHAT?!

Have you driven a manual transmission before?

The only time I'm ever at 1000 RPM or below, is when I've come to a complete rest, and then start to pull away.

If I was merging onto a highway on ramp, and needed to quickly get up to speed, I'd never have it in a high enough gear to get it down to 1000 RPM (hell, I think my car would struggle to stay at 1000 RPM in fourth and fifth gear without even accelerating).

I never even drop below 1000 RPM unless I stop.

[Raghavan]

The mags don't seem to think so and I trust their opinions much more than I do yours.

I've given you facts man, and besides, i've ridden in one on the highway. You can believe it or not.

[TBR]

Indeed I have, and you are right you really aren't below 1000 (though I generally avoid starring at the tach while I am launching) but you are in that neighborhood unless you rev it really high before you drop the clutch which just isn't good on the car. Yes, the S2000 will out accelerate a lot of cars, but it sure isn't as fast as its competition.

[TBR]

The mags don't seem to think so and I trust their opinions much more than I do yours.

I've given you facts man, and besides, i've ridden in one on the highway. You can believe it or not.

I think I would rather listen to the people who are paid to drive dozens of cars every year, some of which compete directly with the S2000. If the S2000's low end performance wasn't lacking in comparision to its competition the mags simply wouldn't complain about it, surely you've seen how C/D drools over everything Honda.

[Raghavan]

Indeed I have, and you are right you really aren't below 1000 (though I generally avoid starring at the tach while I am launching) but you are in that neighborhood unless you rev it really high before you drop the clutch which just isn't good on the car. Yes, the S2000 will out accelerate a lot of cars, but it sure isn't as fast as its competition.

Yes it is.

[MrH]

That's what gearing is for.  Don't drop the clutch, and you'll still be way past 1000 RPM in no time.

"Yes, the S2000 will out accelerate a lot of cars, but it sure isn't as fast as its competition."

Too bad traffic is only as fast as its slowest cars, and the S2000 doesn't have to keep up with only its competitors in traffic.  Basically, you're saying it's plenty fast for everyday traffic, so you've just conceded to what you had been arguing with Rag.

And what competition is faster than the S2000 except the 350Z?

[Raghavan]

"Yes, the S2000 will out accelerate a lot of cars, but it sure isn't as fast as its competition."

Too bad traffic is only as fast as its slowest cars, and the S2000 doesn't have to keep up with only its competitors in traffic.  Basically, you're saying it's plenty fast for everyday traffic, so you've just conceded to what you had been arguing with Rag.

And what competition is faster than the S2000 except the 350Z?

Well said. B)  

[TBR]

No, it isn't:
S2000:
0-60: 5.5
5-60: 6.9
30-50: 9.7
50-70: 8.5

350z
0-60: 5.7
5-60: 6.0
30-50: 9.1
50-70:8.6

Z4
0-60: 5.4
5-60: 6.1
30-50: 9.8
50-70: 9.0

Without a high RPM clutch drop the S2000 falls behind the other two by quite a bit while the 350z's much superior low end torque is highlighted by its dramatically better top gear acceleration. Obviously the Z4's top gear acceleration numbers are quite a bit worse than the S2000's, which you can blame on a super tall 6th gear, you would be better off leaving it in 5th when it is likely you will have to pass.

[Raghavan]

No, it isn't:
S2000:
0-60: 5.5
5-60: 6.9
30-50: 9.7
50-70: 8.5

350z
0-60: 5.7
5-60: 6.0
30-50: 9.1
50-70:8.6

Z4
0-60: 5.4
5-60: 6.1
30-50: 9.8
50-70: 9.0

Without a high RPM clutch drop the S2000 falls behind the other two by quite a bit while the 350z's much superior low end torque is highlighted by its dramatically better top gear acceleration. Obviously the Z4's top gear acceleration numbers are quite a bit worse than the S2000's, which you can blame on a super tall 6th gear, you would be better off leaving it in 5th when it is likely you will have to pass.

They're pretty close actually.

[TBR]

Also, the original point of argument was that the S2000's high torque peak didn't hurt its everyday liveability which it does as I have shown with the 5-60 (an accurate representation of the time it would take to pull out onto a busy highway) and 30-50 numbers (an accurate represntation of the time it would take to get up to speed to merge)  Well, apparantly S2000 owners agreed with me here, otherwise the S2000 wouldn't have gotten a 2.2l engine with more torque at a lower rpm and an equal amount of HP for 2004  

[TBR]

Since when does a .9 second difference make cars pretty close? Oh yeah, when the car you prefer is the slower one

[Raghavan]

Since when does a .9 second difference make cars pretty close? Oh yeah, when the car you prefer is the slower one

But the S2000 catches up dramtically in all the other tests, and in the real world, it doesn't matter. You won't be using all of the power at the time you're accelerating onto a highway.

[TBR]

Have you ever merged or pulled onto a busy highway or passed someone on a 2 lane country road? You want all the power you can get in those situations, if you don't have enough you can spend a lot of time waiting.

[Raghavan]

Have you ever merged or pulled onto a busy highway or passed someone on a 2 lane country road? You want all the power you can get in those situations, if you don't have enough you can spend a lot of time waiting.

It doesn't take a long time though. It's not as bad as a turbo'ed car, and the acceleration is perfectly adequete for daily use.

[TBR]

The power gain is linear, but it is still gutless (comparatively speaking) at lower rpms, just like a turbo car. Generally turbos will come on full force between 2000 and 3000 rpm, with the S2000 you have to wait until 5000 rpm to really start gaining power.

[Raghavan]

The power gain is linear, but it is still gutless (comparatively speaking) at lower rpms, just like a turbo car. Generally turbos will come on full force between 2000 and 3000 rpm, with the S2000 you have to wait until 5000 rpm to really start gaining power.

It's not gutless. As i said, there's over 100 lb ft at your disposal at 1000 rpm.

[JYODER240]

looks nice but id like it to have more HP, the 340hp out of the S4 would be pretty nice.

[TBR]

The power gain is linear, but it is still gutless (comparatively speaking) at lower rpms, just like a turbo car. Generally turbos will come on full force between 2000 and 3000 rpm, with the S2000 you have to wait until 5000 rpm to really start gaining power.

It's not gutless. As i said, there's over 100 lb ft at your disposal at 1000 rpm.

..but it is still gutless (comparatively speaking) at lower rpms...

[MrH]

No, it isn't:
S2000:
0-60: 5.5
5-60: 6.9
30-50: 9.7
50-70: 8.5

350z
0-60: 5.7
5-60: 6.0
30-50: 9.1
50-70:8.6

Z4
0-60: 5.4
5-60: 6.1
30-50: 9.8
50-70: 9.0

Without a high RPM clutch drop the S2000 falls behind the other two by quite a bit while the 350z's much superior low end torque is highlighted by its dramatically better top gear acceleration. Obviously the Z4's top gear acceleration numbers are quite a bit worse than the S2000's, which you can blame on a super tall 6th gear, you would be better off leaving it in 5th when it is likely you will have to pass.

You mean, you can actually downshift if you want to accelerate?!  :o

And all this time you made it sound like accelerating from 1000 RPM was a neccessity.  


You didn't say the S2000 is significantly slower than its competition when you don't drop the clutch.  You just said it was significantly slower, which it's not.  Don't drop the clutch, and it still isn't far behind.  And both of these competitors are more significantly more expensive.

[TBR]

The 350z isn't, while the Z4 is. And, I said in the real world IIRC, which generally excludes 6000 rpm clutch drops

[Raghavan]

The power gain is linear, but it is still gutless (comparatively speaking) at lower rpms, just like a turbo car. Generally turbos will come on full force between 2000 and 3000 rpm, with the S2000 you have to wait until 5000 rpm to really start gaining power.

It's not gutless. As i said, there's over 100 lb ft at your disposal at 1000 rpm.

..but it is still gutless (comparatively speaking) at lower rpms...

Unless you want rocket like acceleration, it's not gutless compared to the Z's.

[MrH]

Have you ever merged or pulled onto a busy highway or passed someone on a 2 lane country road? You want all the power you can get in those situations, if you don't have enough you can spend a lot of time waiting.

Yes I have.

Now my question to you.  Have you ever pushed a car to its absolute acceleration limits?  Do you have any idea how unncessary it is in most everyday cars?  Hell, my car is by no means fast, but I don't think I have ever come into a situation where I've had to hit redline in every gear to avoid something.

If the acceleration of an S2000 isn't enough for you to pull onto a road, then there's no way in hell you should be turning in front of that car.  And if you're trying to, you're a terrible driver.  Miss a gear?  Loose traction for a second?  And all of a sudden this guy almost hits your ass?

You sir, suck at driving decisions.

[TBR]

Is it significantly slower than both cars when accelerating between 5 and 60 and 30 and 50? Yes, it is, therefore it is gutless, comparatively speaking.  

[MrH]

The power gain is linear, but it is still gutless (comparatively speaking) at lower rpms, just like a turbo car. Generally turbos will come on full force between 2000 and 3000 rpm, with the S2000 you have to wait until 5000 rpm to really start gaining power.

If the power gain is linear, then you don't have to wait until 5000 RPM to really start gaining power.  You're gaining power the entire time you're accelerating.  Perhaps even, dare I say, in a linear fashion?!  :o

You just contradicted yourself in one post.  Hell, it was even just 2 sentences.

[Raghavan]

The power gain is linear, but it is still gutless (comparatively speaking) at lower rpms, just like a turbo car. Generally turbos will come on full force between 2000 and 3000 rpm, with the S2000 you have to wait until 5000 rpm to really start gaining power.

If the power gain is linear, then you don't have to wait until 5000 RPM to really start gaining power.  You're gaining power the entire time you're accelerating.  Perhaps even, dare I say, in a linear fashion?!  :o

You just contradicted yourself in one post.  Hell, it was even just 2 sentences.

:D  

[TBR]

Have you ever merged or pulled onto a busy highway or passed someone on a 2 lane country road? You want all the power you can get in those situations, if you don't have enough you can spend a lot of time waiting.

Yes I have.

Now my question to you.  Have you ever pushed a car to its absolute acceleration limits?  Do you have any idea how unncessary it is in most everyday cars?  Hell, my car is by no means fast, but I don't think I have ever come into a situation where I've had to hit redline in every gear to avoid something.

If the acceleration of an S2000 isn't enough for you to pull onto a road, then there's no way in hell you should be turning in front of that car.  And if you're trying to, you're a terrible driver.  Miss a gear?  Loose traction for a second?  And all of a sudden this guy almost hits your ass?

You sir, suck at driving decisions.

You, sir, suck at holding a civilized debate. That last sentence was completely unnecessary and you have absolutely no basis to make it.

When pulling onto a highway or passing you are right, .9 seconds shouldn't determine whether or not you can make it, but it is nice to have that cushion. However, when merging it is quite different, you don't get to choose how big the gap is or even where it is, you have to take what you can get and sometimes that extra juice is absolutely necessary.

[TBR]

The power gain is linear, but it is still gutless (comparatively speaking) at lower rpms, just like a turbo car. Generally turbos will come on full force between 2000 and 3000 rpm, with the S2000 you have to wait until 5000 rpm to really start gaining power.

If the power gain is linear, then you don't have to wait until 5000 RPM to really start gaining power.  You're gaining power the entire time you're accelerating.  Perhaps even, dare I say, in a linear fashion?!  :o

You just contradicted yourself in one post.  Hell, it was even just 2 sentences.

Perhaps I wasn't clear, you don't get the sudden rush you do with a turbo engine, but S2000's engine definitely picks up its pace when the cams switch (which is actually at 6000 now that I think about it).

[Raghavan]

Have you ever merged or pulled onto a busy highway or passed someone on a 2 lane country road? You want all the power you can get in those situations, if you don't have enough you can spend a lot of time waiting.

Yes I have.

Now my question to you.  Have you ever pushed a car to its absolute acceleration limits?  Do you have any idea how unncessary it is in most everyday cars?  Hell, my car is by no means fast, but I don't think I have ever come into a situation where I've had to hit redline in every gear to avoid something.

If the acceleration of an S2000 isn't enough for you to pull onto a road, then there's no way in hell you should be turning in front of that car.  And if you're trying to, you're a terrible driver.  Miss a gear?  Loose traction for a second?  And all of a sudden this guy almost hits your ass?

You sir, suck at driving decisions.

You, sir, suck at holding a civilized debate. That last sentence was completely unnecessary and you have absolutely no basis to make it.

When pulling onto a highway or passing you are right, .9 seconds shouldn't determine whether or not you can make it, but it is nice to have that cushion. However, when merging it is quite different, you don't get to choose how big the gap is or even where it is, you have to take what you can get and sometimes that extra juice is absolutely necessary.

And yet the S2000 has so much power that it can merge easily without even being revved hard. You're acting as if the S2000 is a small econobox that needs to be revved the hell out of to get anywhere. Even econoboxes don't need to.