First Comparo. All your base belong to the new 328i

[Vinsanity]

The ATS leaves me cold....

So far, the entry-lux field hasn't exactly been teeming with breakthrough styling from their respective predecessors. It'll be up to M-B, Lexus, and Infiniti to come out with something styled out of left field for their follow-up models, but that's highly doubtful. One of the biggest selling points of an entry-lux car is that they're immediately identifiable as a Lexus, Merc, Caddy, etc.

[850CSi]

BMW has a unique position in the marketplace. When people think of Mercedes, Audi or the Japanese lux brands, they think of luxury interiors, snob factor, etc. BMW was always about being the "ultimate driving machine" first and foremost - and, oh yeah, it is also a pretty luxurious car, too. A lot of the people who didn't mind spending some extra dough on the BMW for its performance, handling and driveability may now be driven away from the brand by its high price tag.

I think you drastically overstate the number of people who choose 3ers over the competition for any reason but the badge. BMW is far more about the snob factor than the driving experience. The two are somewhat intertwined because the latter feeds into the other, but it's just a means to the snob factor.

I would bet a lot of $$$ that 95% of the people who drive a 3-series don't know how to change their own oil. I bet at least 70% don't know their car is RWD, and that same 95% wouldn't know if you didn't tell them.

[Tave]

I could change my own oil if you gave me some instructions and a free hour or two, but I couldn't just walk out to my car and do it right now. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy driving or cars that drive well.

[sportyaccordy]

I think 850's point is valid though. Most people who buy Bimmers are not buying them for the thrill, they are buying them for the image. I'm not gonna lie, when I see someone in a new Bimmer the first thing I think is "man they must have money", NOT "man they must love driving". I think a decontented 4 banger 1 series with cloth seats and all that would be a great driver's car.

The price gap has to make sense though. The gap from the 3 to 5 is ~$12K or 33%. A base 1 would need a similar gap to make sense. $3K less for much less car doesn't make much sense.

[Raza]

$25k is too far down market.  BMW won't do that.

Current 128i starts at $31k pretty stripped.  And all their cars are moving up in price faster than a lot of other companies.  Somewhere around $33k for a stripper 1-series sounds about right.

I'm with everyone else though, I wish they held off on this comparison until they got a hold of the ATS.  If GM can provide 90% of the driving dynamics at 75% of the cost, they've got a chance at making a dent.

I'm still wondering why they chose all automatics.

[Raza]

I think you drastically overstate the number of people who choose 3ers over the competition for any reason but the badge. BMW is far more about the snob factor than the driving experience. The two are somewhat intertwined because the latter feeds into the other, but it's just a means to the snob factor.

I would bet a lot of $$$ that 95% of the people who drive a 3-series don't know how to change their own oil. I bet at least 70% don't know their car is RWD, and that same 95% wouldn't know if you didn't tell them.

Are you even allowed or able to change your own oil in a modern BMW?

[850CSi]

Are you even allowed or able to change your own oil in a modern BMW?

Yeah, it's super easy.

I could change my own oil if you gave me some instructions and a free hour or two, but I couldn't just walk out to my car and do it right now. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy driving or cars that drive well.

Oil changing is a bad example, but the point stands. People don't buy BMWs for the driving experience, and that includes the 3-series.




As for the F30, I'd be really tempted to get one in a couple of years if things go my way and they offer a diesel. I think I'd still refuse to buy the 4cyl turbo as a matter of principle. It seems like a marvelous little engine but if I'm going to deal with diesel clatter and turbo throttle response I want the advantages of a diesel.

[Raza]

Oil changing is a bad example, but the point stands. People don't buy BMWs for the driving experience, and that includes the 3-series.

I think you're grossly underestimating the amount of people who prefer the way BMWs drive, but can't verbalize it in a way that would be meaningful to enthusiasts. 

[Colonel Cadillac]

I think a decontented 4 banger 1 series with cloth seats and all that would be a great driver's car.

How do less comfortable seats and fewer options make a car more of a driver's car?

[Cookie Monster]

How do less comfortable seats and fewer options make a car more of a driver's car?

Cloth seats hold you in place better.

[68_427]

And how are they less comfortable?

[Vinsanity]

Cloth seats hold you in place better.

I thought he was referring to the standard seats vs. the sport package seats, which incidentally, come only in leather.

Also, BMW doesn't have cloth seats. They have leatherette.

[MexicoCityM3]

Also, BMW doesn't have cloth seats. They have leatherette.

They have cloth in markets outside the U.S. We can get an F30 with cloth seats. Leather is a no-cost option actually.

[SVT666]

They have cloth in markets outside the U.S and Canada. We can get an F30 with cloth seats. Leather is a no-cost option actually.

In Canada we only get optioned out Bimmers.  Our base model 3 Series has heated seats, sunroof, and more as standard equipment (roughly $6K of options in the US).  Canada is like that with a lot of cars though.  Take the Mustang GT for example.  We only get the Premium, so we can't get a GT with cloth seats like the US does.

[sportyaccordy]

How do less comfortable seats and fewer options make a car more of a driver's car?

When did I say those things equated to more of a driver's car?

My poitn was there is a gap at the bottom of BMW's lineup for the kind of cheap light RWD car that made them successful to begin with. So there is room for a bare bones 1 at a slight premium over the likes of the Civic, Corolla etc, just like the Mini Cooper and Fiat 500. They need to make the separation between the 1 and 3 more clear.

[Vinsanity]

When did I say those things equated to more of a driver's car?

My poitn was there is a gap at the bottom of BMW's lineup for the kind of cheap light RWD car that made them successful to begin with. So there is room for a bare bones 1 at a slight premium over the likes of the Civic, Corolla etc, just like the Mini Cooper and Fiat 500. They need to make the separation between the 1 and 3 more clear.

IIRC, the base 1-series is already pretty bare-bones at $31k.

[Cookie Monster]

And how are they less comfortable?

I dunno, I was kidding around.

Though I do find cloth seats to be far more comfortable than leather seats.

[2o6]

I saw a new F30 today.


Not as much of a visual change as pictures suggest. I couldn't tell right away that it was a new model.

[850CSi]

I saw a new F30 today.


Not as much of a visual change as pictures suggest. I couldn't tell right away that it was a new model.

The overall profile has changed less between the E90 and F30 than any other pair of 3-series generations. None of the others are even close save for the E21 and E30.

I think you're grossly underestimating the amount of people who prefer the way BMWs drive, but can't verbalize it in a way that would be meaningful to enthusiasts. 

I see way too many 40-something women driving them for that to be the case. I dunno, maybe you're right.

[cawimmer430]

And how are they less comfortable?

The standard seats in my 1-Series are pretty crap. They're to thin and soft and you basically feel the underpinnings beneath the cloth/material. That's the reason I have two layers of pillows to sit on and another pillow to use as back support.

The sports seats available for the 1-Series are much more comfortable, supportive and better shaped. I'm talking about the last generation E87 1-Series, not the current one, which I have no experiences with aside from sitting in it for a few minutes at BMW Welt.


And leather seats suck. I hate the leather seats in my dads MB E350 CGI. You slide all over the place on those. MB-Tex/Vinyl/Leatherette is a bit better but overall I would always take cloth > vinyl > leather.

[TurboDan]

They have cloth in markets outside the U.S. We can get an F30 with cloth seats. Leather is a no-cost option actually.

The old E36 318i they sold in the U.S. was sold with cloth seats.

[TurboDan]

I think you're grossly underestimating the amount of people who prefer the way BMWs drive, but can't verbalize it in a way that would be meaningful to enthusiasts. 

I agree. Some people might not be able to articulate the intricacies of the suspension, handling prowess, etc., but still prefer BMWs for the way they drive. That includes middle aged women who don't really care about what's under the hood or how the car is built, but still appreciate the driving dynamics when they get behind the wheel every day.

[Eye of the Tiger]

I agree. Some people might not be able to articulate the intricacies of the suspension, handling prowess, etc., but still prefer BMWs for the way they drive. That includes middle aged women who don't really care about what's under the hood or how the car is built, but still appreciate the driving dynamics when they get behind the wheel every day.

It's true that many people have no clue about how or why something works, but still have good taste. It's like how I have no idea why Wendy's cheeseburgers taste so good, but I just know that they do. Burger King Whoppers are horrible, and are like the Toyota Camrys of burgers, and I refuse to eat one unless it is an emergency.

[cawimmer430]

It's true that many people have no clue about how or why something works, but still have good taste. It's like how I have no idea why Wendy's cheeseburgers taste so good, but I just know that they do. Burger King Whoppers are horrible, and are like the Toyota Camrys of burgers, and I refuse to eat one unless it is an emergency.

We don't have Wendy's here but I love Burger King. It's McDonalds which tastes like garbage here, especially their fries.

Burger King > McDonalds! 

[Eye of the Tiger]

We don't have Wendy's here but I love Burger King. It's McDonalds which tastes like garbage here, especially their fries.

Burger King > McDonalds!  

It varies by region, but I hate the Burger Kings in the U.S.. Everything on the menu has the same bad grease flavor, even the salads.

Now, to a fast-food engineer, what I just said would sound completely ignorant and stupid, like a woman who is trying to describe why she likes her BMW.

[CJ]

The standard seats in my 1-Series are pretty crap. They're to thin and soft and you basically feel the underpinnings beneath the cloth/material. That's the reason I have two layers of pillows to sit on and another pillow to use as back support.

The sports seats available for the 1-Series are much more comfortable, supportive and better shaped. I'm talking about the last generation E87 1-Series, not the current one, which I have no experiences with aside from sitting in it for a few minutes at BMW Welt.


And leather seats suck. I hate the leather seats in my dads MB E350 CGI. You slide all over the place on those. MB-Tex/Vinyl/Leatherette is a bit better but overall I would always take cloth > vinyl > leather.

With leather, it depends on the shape of the seat.  The cloth seats in our Camry don't hold you in worth a damn (It's a Camry, so it's not supposed to...but hear me out), whereas the seats in my buddy's S60 T5 are bolstered heavily and hold you in the seat quite well.  It's all about the shape.

[Xer0]

We don't have Wendy's here but I love Burger King. It's McDonalds which tastes like garbage here, especially their fries.

Burger King > McDonalds! 

Do you guys have these in Germany?



Best item on BK's menu, IMO.

[cawimmer430]

With leather, it depends on the shape of the seat.  The cloth seats in our Camry don't hold you in worth a damn (It's a Camry, so it's not supposed to...but hear me out), whereas the seats in my buddy's S60 T5 are bolstered heavily and hold you in the seat quite well.  It's all about the shape.

That to. The seats in my dad's E350 CGI are pretty flat, so you slide a lot on that leather.

[cawimmer430]

It varies by region, but I hate the Burger Kings in the U.S.. Everything on the menu has the same bad grease flavor, even the salads.

Now, to a fast-food engineer, what I just said would sound completely ignorant and stupid, like a woman who is trying to describe why she likes her BMW.

I've never ordered a salad at Burger King. When I eat at Burger King I'm there to clog my arteries, not eat healthy. 

[cawimmer430]

Do you guys have these in Germany?



Best item on BK's menu, IMO.

Nope, we don't have that here. We have some sort of pecan pie or sundae dessert available. I've never bothered with dessert at Burger King. I get my dosage of sugar with a nice XXXL Coke.